Days of the Week

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It always bugged me how many small details in Tolkien's languages only worked as English calques. They should have taken his conlanging license.

I just can't get mad at the Baranduin/Branda-nîn/Bralda-hîm/Brandywine/[insert language of translation] joke though.

I judge conlangs on a single point: do they employ non-base 10 counting systems.



Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Oh, the thing with the lack of T-V distinction in the hobbit dialect was a stroke of genius.

It would have been if he had let any way for the translations to a T-V distinguishing language to use that.

Tolkien may cry treason all he wants, Hildegard of Bingen has the last word on his membership status.

The guy who founds the theater club is not the guy who invented theater but the one who makes it popular 'round these parts. Same with conlang.

But hey, I learned a thing today!

EDIT:

I judge conlangs on a single point: do they employ non-base 10 counting systems.



Grey Wolf

I seem to remember elves having a base-12 system, but I couldn't give you a quote, right now.

[Emanick]

It would have been if he had let any way for the translations to a T-V distinguishing language to use that.


The guy who founds the theater club is not the guy who invented theater but the one who makes it popular 'round these parts. Same with conlang.

But hey, I learned a thing today!

EDIT:

I seem to remember elves having a base-12 system, but I couldn't give you a quote, right now.

They apparently used a base-12 system because when the Elves first awoke, there were 144 of them, arranged in 12 groups of 12. Why this led to the development of a base-12 system I don't know, but one of Tolkien's letters makes the point that such a system makes arithmetic much easier, which I certainly don't dispute.

It always bugged me how many small details in Tolkien's languages only worked as English calques. They should have taken his conlanging license.

I just can't get mad at the Baranduin/Branda-nîn/Bralda-hîm/Brandywine/[insert language of translation] joke though.

Better than C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, which claims in the first volume's appendix that the name of the protagonist (who was modeled after Tolkien) is a pseudonym invented to protect his anonymity, then uses its literal meaning in English as a crucial plot element in the next book. It's a great series - one of my favorites - but Tolkien must have facepalmed when Lewis read that section to him.

[Fyraltari]

Better than C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, which claims in the first volume's appendix that the name of the protagonist (who was modeled after Tolkien) is a pseudonym invented to protect his anonymity, then uses its literal meaning in English as a crucial plot element in the next book. It's a great series - one of my favorites - but Tolkien must have facepalmed when Lewis read that section to him.

I don't know, Tolkien has a fondness to translate names based on meaning rather than phonetical approximation (ex Imladriss becoming Rivendell rather than, say, Imadres). Is it possible that the protagonist's name has that same meaning in his native tongue?

[Emanick]

I don't know, Tolkien has a fondness to translate names based on meaning rather than phonetical approximation (ex Imladriss becoming Rivendell rather than, say, Imadres). Is it possible that the protagonist's name has that same meaning in his native tongue?

I think it's just a simple mistake - his name was changed, not translated, unfortunately. It's made pretty clear that he's an Englishman, and after it's stated in the first book that Ransom is not the protagonist's real name, you then get this passage in the second book (which I'm going to quote at length mostly because it's beautiful, not because it's strictly necessary):

“It is not for nothing that you are named Ransom,” said the Voice.

And he knew that this was no fancy of his own. He knew it for a very curious reason—because he had known for many years that his surname was derived not from ransom but from Randolf’s son. It would never have occurred to him thus to associate the two words. To connect the name Ransom with the act of ransoming would have been for him a mere pun. But even his voluble self did not now dare to suggest that the Voice was making a play upon words. All in a moment of time he perceived that what was, to human philologists, a mere accidental resemblance of two sounds, was in truth no accident. The whole distinction between things accidental and things designed, like the distinction between fact and myth, was purely terrestrial. The pattern is so large that within the little frame of earthly experience there appear pieces of it between which we can see no connection, and other pieces between which we can. Hence we rightly, for our use, distinguish the accidental from the essential. But step outside that frame and the distinction drops down into the void, fluttering useless wings. He had been forced out of the frame, caught up into the larger pattern. He knew now why the old philosophers had said that there is no such thing as chance or fortune beyond the Moon. Before his Mother had borne him, before his ancestors had been called Ransoms, before ransom had been the name for a payment that delivers, before the world was made, all these things had so stood together in eternity that the very significance of the pattern at this point lay in their coming together in just this fashion. And he bowed his head and groaned and repined against his fate—to be still a man and yet to be forced up into the metaphysical world, to enact what philosophy only thinks.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Star Wars, really?

Show

Spoiler: I find your lack of faith.... disturbing

Show

[Fyraltari]

I think it's just a simple mistake - his name was changed, not translated, unfortunately. It's made pretty clear that he's an Englishman, and after it's stated in the first book that Ransom is not the protagonist's real name, you then get this passage in the second book (which I'm going to quote at length mostly because it's beautiful, not because it's strictly necessary):

Ah. Because of the title I had assumed the protagonist to be an extra-terrestrial.

Spoiler: I find your lack of faith.... disturbing

Show

Spoiler: Yeah, right

Show

[RatElemental]

I judge conlangs on a single point: do they employ non-base 10 counting systems.



Grey Wolf

There was a (fallen) fictional society in a game called Looming that counted in base two and revered scientific subjects as gods unto themselves.

[Peelee]

I judge conlangs on a single point: do they employ non-base 10 counting systems.

Grey Wolf

They all use base 10 as far as they're concerned.

Besides, if but a non-base-10 system better if the adherers had more or fewer than ten digits on their appendages.

[Schroeswald]

They all use base 10 as far as they're concerned.

Besides, if but a non-base-10 system better if the adherers had more or fewer than ten digits on their appendages.

Then Oots should be using base 6.

[Squire Doodad]

Then Oots should be using base 6.

Base 6 easily evolves into Base 12, thus meaning that the OotS probably has a much more convenient educational system. Skill points notwithstanding.

[Fyraltari]

They all use base 10 as far as they're concerned.

This is not how this work.

Besides, if but a non-base-10 system better if the adherers had more or fewer than ten digits on their appendages.

Tell that to the various cultures throughout history who used other bases than ten.

(By the way, you can count to twelve on your fingers by using your thumbs to count your phalanges, that's about as instinctive as counting your fingers).

[Peelee]

This is not how this work.

Why not? 1,10, bam! Base 10. Not their fault you count in base 1010.

[Fyraltari]

Why not? 1,10, bam! Base 10. Not their fault you count in base 1010.

He said, in the year MMXIX.

[Peelee]

He said, in the year MMXIX.

I'm offended that English is German based but muddy it with Latin and Greek yet we use a nice, simple base 10, while it was the Romans who had a base 10 number system and muddied it with base 2 and base 5. Why can't our number system be as bad as our language?

[Schroeswald]

I'm offended that English is German based but muddy it with Latin and Greek yet we use a nice, simple base 10, while it was the Romans who had a base 10 number system and muddied it with base 2 and base 5. Why can't our number system be as bad as our language?

We must develop British numerals to fix this controvosy!

[Squire Doodad]

We must develop British numerals to fix this controvosy!

This is where we start talking about whether 199X means somewhere between 1990 and 1999 or if it means 2000, right?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There was a (fallen) fictional society in a game called Looming that counted in base two and revered scientific subjects as gods unto themselves.

Trolls in discworld count in base 4: one, two, three, many, many one, many two, many three, lots. It already puts them ahead of most serious sci-fi and fantasy societies, as far as I am concerned.

Grey Wolf

[Reboot]

This is where we start talking about whether 199X means somewhere between 1990 and 1999 or if it means 2000, right?

Nah, x stands for an unknown digit, which means those first three digits are known to be 1, 9 and 9 in that order.

Now, if you're talking about the end of the 20th century, that should absolutely be the 31st of December 2000, not 1999...

[Squire Doodad]

Nah, x stands for an unknown digit, which means those first three digits are known to be 1, 9 and 9 in that order.

Now, if you're talking about the end of the 20th century, that should absolutely be the 31st of December 2000, not 1999...

I'm well aware of how variables work, thank you

Still though I once ran into a group of people arguing about the canonical timing of two events, and one of them argued that 199X meant 2000 because it was a roman numeral...fun times!

[Fyraltari]

I'm offended that English is German based but muddy it with Latin and Greek yet we use a nice, simple base 10, while it was the Romans who had a base 10 number system and muddied it with base 2 and base 5. Why can't our number system be as bad as our language?

No, no, no the romans did use base 10, as you can see here, original names from 1 to nine (zero wasn't invented yet), original names for all tens (based on the first names) and combination of those lists for individual numbers, same goes for hundreds and thousands. What they didn't have was positionnal value which is just a way to write the number, not how to construct it.

Trolls in discworld count in base 4: one, two, three, many, many one, many two, many three, lots. It already puts them ahead of most serious sci-fi and fantasy societies, as far as I am concerned.

And Detritus the troll counts in base two. The hidden joke baing that he has a sillicon-based brain, just like a computer.

[Peelee]

No, no, no the romans did use base 10, as you can see here

Blocked in the ol' US, I'm afraid.

[Emanick]

Blocked in the ol' US, I'm afraid.

I am allegedly in the United of States, and it works fine for me. Maybe you’ve got a browser extension that blocks it somehow?

[Peelee]

I am allegedly in the United of States, and it works fine for me. Maybe you’ve got a browser extension that blocks it somehow?

More likely it doesn't like my phone.

[hroþila]

Why have we moved from conlangs to arithmetics, I don't approve of this.

[Fyraltari]

Why have we moved from conlangs to arithmetics, I don't approve of this.

Ooh, I was expecting an explanation of the runic numeral system...

Anyway, we haven’t, we are only discussing how numbers are named and written which are purely linguistics concerns. If we were talking about which base is best for what use, then we’d be moving into arithmetics.

[CriticalFailure]

Is there such thing as a mathematical conlang or is that just making a new notation?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is there such thing as a mathematical conlang or is that just making a new notation?

There isn't. But every conlang should address that numbers are a thing that languages have to address, and not automatically assume every language employs base 10. Admittedly, conlangs tend to be created by people who probably had less-than-average love for math, but still, as per the video above, they should at least be aware that other cultures found other ways of counting.

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

There isn't. But every conlang should address that numbers are a thing that languages have to address...

Not all languages. Many, yes of course, but oddities exist.

[hroþila]

Ooh, I was expecting an explanation of the runic numeral system...

Anyway, we haven’t, we are only discussing how numbers are named and written which are purely linguistics concerns. If we were talking about which base is best for what use, then we’d be moving into arithmetics.

Unfortunately, it seems I can't learn runes no matter how many times I try. All I can say about runes is that they're super hard to read because someone decided to make 13th-century Icelandic the written standard for Old Norse (which is 200-400 years older) and I think this is wack.