OOTS #1172 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

Then don't use "we" when you mean "me" unless you are royalty.

Even then, from what I understand, as it originated as either speaking for the Royal Family (who would of COURSE agree with the monarch about everything), or the Monarch and God for all that extra Divine Right of Kings stuff, depending on who you ask. So you're still claiming to speak for SOMEONE else using the Royal We.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, out of curiosity, are we all not-citing the same video? Because a lot of the talking points sound familiar, just viewed through another lens

Partially. I also read James Fallows. Not because of his flying articles but because of his international poltiics (of which I will say no more, because board rules), but he does like flying, so he was all over the 737 Max crash. When he and Wendover pretty much agreed on all points, I took at as close enough to the truth.

Yes, I'm aware that there is a fallacy in there where Wendover might have sourced Fallows too (not the other way round, Fallows was out first).

ETA: I didn't quote either because I'm at work, and youtube and twitter searching is less-than-easy and NSFW.

But consider them both cited as the basis for my position

Grey Wolf

[Particle_Man]

I'm curious if the Three Fiends are going to pull V out of the fight before V can unpetrify Durkon if that is time sensitive. Do they want the world destroyed?

If so, could Elan unpetrify Durkon anyhow?

[D.One]

Unless they're digital vampires. They've got some nasty bytes.

They even can have Megabytes...

[Peelee]

I'm curious if the Three Fiends are going to pull V out of the fight before V can unpetrify Durkon if that is time sensitive. Do they want the world destroyed?

If so, could Elan unpetrify Durkon anyhow?

V and Elan are both inside the mountain. The hole opens directly to outside-the-mountain. It looks to me like there's no way they could do anything of the sort; at least, not at the moment.

[Jasdoif]

No, there are states where self-serve gas is actually illegal. New Jersey and Oregon, IIRC.

Huh, didn't know that. I guess that's one way to bolster the number of minimum-wage jobs nobody with other options wants in your state...can't think of any other reason to make self-serve illegal.

Ostensibly, the ban here in Oregon was originally put in place in 1951 over fears of untrained people spilling fuel. I suspect the actual motivation was existing gas stations wanting to protect their profit margins from then-newfangled self-service stations. And regardless, that was almost seventy years ago; it's picked up a lot of cultural inertia.

[The MunchKING]

Spoiler: Car Stuff

Show

Huh, didn't know that. I guess that's one way to bolster the number of minimum-wage jobs nobody with other options wants in your state...can't think of any other reason to make self-serve illegal.

The only other thing I could think of would be Fire Safety. So you don't get people catching themselves or their car on fire because they couldn't stop smoking or something.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sidgi doesn't turn to stone because she turns the barrier to stone. That's how badass she is.

Sigdi: I taught Chuck Norris how to Chuck Norris.

[Riftwolf]

I realise this has nothing to do with AI or whether new Star Wars films are any good, but have we had a translation of the blue runes? It looks like 'follow the law', if I was to guess.

[Crookwise]

Ostensibly, the ban here in Oregon was originally put in place in 1951 over fears of untrained people spilling fuel. I suspect the actual motivation was existing gas stations wanting to protect their profit margins from then-newfangled self-service stations. And regardless, that was almost seventy years ago; it's picked up a lot of cultural inertia.

I dunno, this IS Oregon we're talking about. If I had to live there as an unskilled laborer, I'd want a job where I could kick back until a customer came by.

[Peelee]

I dunno, this IS Oregon we're talking about. If I had to live there as an unskilled laborer, I'd want a job where I could kick back until a customer came by.

Unskilled?!? I think you're discounting the skill required to not spill gasoline!

[Schroeswald]

I'm curious if the Three Fiends are going to pull V out of the fight before V can unpetrify Durkon if that is time sensitive. Do they want the world destroyed?

If so, could Elan unpetrify Durkon anyhow?

IDK if they'll use it for this specific conflict but V is probably going to get taken out by the IFCC before the end of Utterly Dwarfed (though probably the four minute one).

[SlashDash]

I'm curious if the Three Fiends are going to pull V out of the fight before V can unpetrify Durkon if that is time sensitive. Do they want the world destroyed?

If so, could Elan unpetrify Durkon anyhow?

Durkon remains petrified until the end of the vote. It's not permanent. So they don't need to release him.

The fiends also clearly don't want the world to get destroyed. After the previous gate blew up, they mentioned they await the race for the last gate.

[SlashDash]

Random thought -

Would casting Dispell on the priest who cast the "summon proxy" call of the meeting?

[Jasdoif]

Unskilled?!? I think you're discounting the skill required to not spill gasoline!

My usual experience is that weird state laws are the result of Portland making decisions for themselves, and the rest of us getting dragged into it.

[Ornithologist]

Unless vampires!

You can detect when vampires are manipulating the vote.

They are Allegedly tampering with the vote. A full investigation will take place later. We don't want to do things out of turn.



..

Look, I'm pretty sure I haven't been dominated by vampires. My good buddy Vlad told me so, and I believe him.

edit: as someone who sells gas station parts in Colorado. I'm very positive some people shouldn't pump their own gas. Those people should also not be driving at all. You wouldn't believe how much I have to charge people to replace hoses and nozzles when people drive off.

[Peelee]

My usual experience is that weird state laws are the result of Portland making decisions for themselves, and the rest of us getting dragged into it.

You mean things other than trees exist outside of Portland?

[KorvinStarmast]

It's crazy to me that the Boeing thing was able to happen - my understanding is that the software was made more aggressive and the back up sensors were removed without there being additional review and oversight?

Three key root causes, known because a few crews were able to deal with a failure without crashing. (Read up on the Lion Air crash for details).
1. AoA signal to MCAS trigger architecture (short version "single point of failure" but there is still some detail to become public) The flight regime that the MCAS was suppsed to handle was an extreme corner case that was not expected to be seen in normal operaions. Fur sure not on take off.
2. the choice to make the AoA signal/issue alert optional.
3. the "cost savings" having to do with pilot traning not needed, which led to "if this {new} bit goes pear shaped, here is our procedure for handling it" not being known and trained for all crews. <--- That IMO (due to a number of years of flying, etc) is the real black mark for the FAA, Boeing, and the companies operating those aircraft. That was the collective head in the sand bit (or the heads up their back sides bit) that led to some crews being able to sort it out, and some not. (More or less a few crews guessed correctly)
The pilots are the last line of defense. If the system hangs them out to dry with an aircraft feature that operates a primary flight control, such that they have to ask "what is it doing?" and honestly not know the answer ... I'll stop there ... because it upsets me a lot. 60+ years of "lessons learned" by tragic accidents ... no, they can't say "we didn't know better." The aggregate system knows/knew better, and looked away. (I better stop ...)

Gontor: So you’re the foolish old woman who sold all her jewels to save others.

Sigdi: Nope. Didn’t sell ‘em all. (stands in sunlight, holds up diamond)

Heh, hope this works.

Partially. I also read James Fallows.

I read the Atlantic every month. Fallows is not an aviation professional, but he is a good writer. I would not use him as a primary source for anything technical. But he (IMO) did the public a service with a few of his articles where he discussed with some pilots who had filed "Eh, what's it doing?" reports via tha NASA (and IIRC FAA?) safety reporting systems. That article was a nice bit of counter balance to some of the garbage that was being repeated through the media that I will not further comment on.
In that respect, I'm glad that his passion for flying/aviation moved him to do that.

Back to the strip:

Single points of failure is something that both Durkon's plan, and Gontor's plan, do not suffer from. They each have some back up plans to their basic plans.

[Crookwise]

Unskilled?!? I think you're discounting the skill required to not spill gasoline!

One of these days I'm gonna run a game where not spilling gasoline requires a skill check.

Everything will catch fire, knowing my group.

[Schroeswald]

They are Allegedly tampering with the vote. A full investigation will take place later. We don't want to do things out of turn.



..

Look, I'm pretty sure I haven't been dominated by vampires. My good buddy Vlad told me so, and I believe him.

Hey! I know Vlad! He's very cool, sure he's accidentally bit a few people, and never been outside, but he's really nice and any friend of his would never be dominated by vampires.

[Jasdoif]

You mean things other than trees exist outside of Portland?

Yes. I and the rest of the 53%-ish of Oregonians exist, in the rest of the 95%-ish of Oregon.

[Ornithologist]

Hey! I know Vlad! He's very cool, sure he's accidentally bit a few people, and never been outside, but he's really nice and any friend of his would never be dominated by vampires.

Don't forget he has the best advice. Its like I could never disagree with him.

[Peelee]

Yes. I and the rest of the 53%-ish of Oregonians exist, in the rest of the 95%-ish of Oregon.

One of my wife's friends tried to convince me of this as well. All claims I've heard so far sound credible, but still shocking.

Says the guy who thinks he would love living in Oregon, even if not in the land of ports...

[jwhouk]

It's probably already been said, so I'll go ahead and say it anyways:

"...But I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned..."

[CriticalFailure]

No. As I have said already, that is blaming the band-aid, not the problem.

The problem is that Boeing 737 can't compete with the Airbus middle distance in fuel economy. To address that, they designed bigger engine. The new engine didn't fit under the current wings, so they lifted the wings. That changed the center of gravity for the plane, which Boeing chose to address via software. The software then had no easy way of communicating what it was doing, because the 737 are relics of the past. They didn't fix that because, like with the wings, the imperative was to keep the changes "cheap" and thus not require re-training of the pilots.

So to prevent retraining, they automatized in software. And now people blame the software, rather than blaming Boeing for not biting the bullet and accepting that to compete with the new airbus models, they need a new design of their own, and every 737 pilot just needs to accept their 4 decade old model is obsolete, can't compete with modern designs, and it is time to learn to fly a new plane. And the people that employ them need to accept they need to pay for the retraining as well as for the new planes.


Grey Wolf

I'm not claiming to understand the entire process that went into that design decision. I'm just saying it seems crazy to me that their design process allowed for the kind of changes that were made, to be made, without additional oversight and review required for approval. I believe your explanation for why those decisions were made, I was just saying I found it crazy that their process and regulatory bodies both allowed the specific system through without additional oversight.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I suspect that something will come through the hole that was just made in the ceiling.

Well, something other than sunlight and air.

Not sure what it's going to be, but I have a feeling that the purpose of the hole is for entry, rather than destruction.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not claiming to understand the entire process that went into that design decision. I'm just saying it seems crazy to me that their design process allowed for the kind of changes that were made, to be made, without additional oversight and review required for approval. I believe your explanation for why those decisions were made, I was just saying I found it crazy that their process and regulatory bodies both allowed the specific system through without additional oversight.

If you want to learn more (insert Starship Troopers gif here), I recommend watching the video from Wendover productions linked earlier by GreatWyrmGold. As KorvinStarmast says (of Fallows, but it applies to both) it's a reporter's take on the issue. But it matches everything I have read from actual experts, so I consider it about as good a layman's explanation is going to be.

I'd say more about the regulatory process that should've stopped it and didn't, but politics.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

Huh, didn't know that. I guess that's one way to bolster the number of minimum-wage jobs nobody with other options wants in your state...can't think of any other reason to make self-serve illegal.

Preventing drive offs and other forms of theft was part of it, I'm sure.

And I'm surprised nobody's realized that we're already transitioning to self-driving cars. All those new 'safety systems' are just turning more of the driving over to the computer because humans can't be trusted to not screw it up.

[Dion]

It’s as foolish to say “the 737 was built this way for this one reason” as it is to say “car crashes mostly happen for this one reason” or “dwarven councils end the world for one reason”.

So yeah, the planes did crash because the software was hooked to one sensor. That really is the real reason. They also crashed because the FAA certification process was compromised. That really is the real reason too! They also crashed because Boeing wanted to compete with airbus fuel efficiency in the most profitable way, and that drove them to make an immense mistake. That’s also the real reason!

(You can even say “they crashed because of the failures of capitalism”, but at that point you’re so far away from an actual actionable problem that I can’t see how it’s useful to say that.)

Why are the dwarves likely to end the world without outside intervention? Is it because of the vampires? Or is it because of the rules of the meeting? Or is it because of the non-confrontational psychology that dominates any group of people who fear ostracism?

It’s all those reasons at the same time!

[Rrmcklin]

I'm curious if the Three Fiends are going to pull V out of the fight before V can unpetrify Durkon if that is time sensitive. Do they want the world destroyed?

If so, could Elan unpetrify Durkon anyhow?

I'm still a bit confused by people thinking the IFCC have this factored into their plans at all.