OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

[ijuinkun]

She misted when she noticed the law runes were gone. Durkon smashed the table (indirectly), which caused the meeting to be stopped. That's when the runes disappeared. That's when curly bolted. And that's also the reason why Gonetor can attack Sigdi without becoming a lawn ornament.

Exactly. The breaking of the table is what stopped the meeting (since the room no longer met the requirements for the meeting). It did not have to wait for the Speaker (or any other member) to acknowledge it--if they had instead attempted to continue the meeting, then any further motions they attempted would be void of authority.

[Jannoire]

She's also seen in the panel when the table breaks. She misted right afterwards, which suggests to me that she knew what was coming. Maybe Gonetor shouldn't have been following Greg's orders this closely...

[CandidKid]

Not applicable to Greg, since the meeting was suspended, but Curly used her supernatural ability to mist out while the council was still in session. Is that a problem? Shouldn’t she have been petrified when she used that ability on a(ny) creature (herself)?

Honestly, I don’t really care. Even if it’s a mistake, it could imho be justified as a “we didn’t consider vampiric misting when developing the wards.”

A possible loophole... the action has to break Dwarven law. Using a supernatural ability on another creature certainly does. Using a supernatural ability one possesses (which one could argue is distinct from casting a spell on oneself - misting is just something you activate internally, spell energy is something from outside - particularly if divine magic) on oneself might not be technically breaking the law.

Exactly. The breaking of the table is what stopped the meeting (since the room no longer met the requirements for the meeting). It did not have to wait for the Speaker (or any other member) to acknowledge it--if they had instead attempted to continue the meeting, then any further motions they attempted would be void of authority.

I'm a bit skeptical that the table breaking was sufficient in itself to suspend the meeting. It's quite a few panels of the Exarch gloating (yes, talking is a free action, but he was saying quite a lot) before the priest "unzots", which only happens after one of the members has already made the motion. The motioner even interrupts the final "yes", so it could be argued that had the dominated council member completed the word before the statute was invoked, the vote would have counted. (The Exarch certainly would have!)

Or at least, that's how I read it. I might be wrong. At any rate, not going to wage war over it. This time.

C.K.

[Quebbster]

She misted when she noticed the law runes were gone. Durkon smashed the table (indirectly), which caused the meeting to be stopped. That's when the runes disappeared. That's when curly bolted. And that's also the reason why Gonetor can attack Sigdi without becoming a lawn ornament.

Incorrect. The blue glow from the law runes are still in effect when Curly mists out, you can compare the look of Gontor's beard with and without the blue glow. The law runes seem to Power down when the cleric of Dvalin unzots.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes! making vampires unundead is amazing!

[Quebbster]

She misted when she noticed the law runes were gone. Durkon smashed the table (indirectly), which caused the meeting to be stopped. That's when the runes disappeared. That's when curly bolted. And that's also the reason why Gonetor can attack Sigdi without becoming a lawn ornament.

Incorrect. The blue glow from the law runes are still in effect when Curly mists out, you can compare the look of Gontor's beard with and without the blue glow. The law runes seem to Power down when the cleric of Dvalin unzots.

[CandidKid]

Incorrect. The blue glow from the law runes are still in effect when Curly mists out, you can compare the look of Gontor's beard with and without the blue glow. The law runes seem to Power down when the cleric of Dvalin unzots.

A nice catch! To extend that logic (you can use the Paint pickup tool to confirm these), the Exarch's beard is darkest blue in Page 2, Panel 2. Then the council member calls the meeting suspended in Panel 3. In Panel 4, the beard is a lighter blue. Then in Panel 6, it's an even lighter blue. The priest unzots in Panel 5.

So the apparent order of events is: Table breaks --> Exarch gives the order for the last vote (meeting still in session) --> Minion starts to comply (meeting still in session) --> Other member calls for the suspension --> Minion completes his vote (now invalidated - meeting is suspended) & runes start to fade --> runes gone --> Priest unzots --> Exarch checks the rules.

Quite a fantastic example of the Giant adding in such fine detail as to make it possible to create an intricate sequence of events like the above using nothing but color! Well played, Giant, well played.

C.K.

[factotum]

She's also seen in the panel when the table breaks. She misted right afterwards, which suggests to me that she knew what was coming. Maybe Gonetor shouldn't have been following Greg's orders this closely...

Where do you see her misting? I've just gone back through all the panels and as far as I can see that panel you just mentioned is the last one where she appears in any form.

[Quebbster]

Where do you see her misting? I've just gone back through all the panels and as far as I can see that panel you just mentioned is the last one where she appears in any form.

First panel of the second page, on the right. It's just Little whisps of smoke in the background.

[CandidKid]

Where do you see her misting? I've just gone back through all the panels and as far as I can see that panel you just mentioned is the last one where she appears in any form.

Look behind the speech bubble where the Exarch says "That wouldn't have even stopped me if it had hit!" You can see the mist.

[facw]

A possible loophole... the action has to break Dwarven law.

That's not really a loophole, it's literally what it does. The barrier doesn't prevent people from casting spells, it punishes people who break dwarven law.

[chuntuk]

Delurking to raise a point that I don't think has been made yet...

I think Gontor* is wrong here:

I will kill all of you, all but one councillor! Then we can hold the vote around a card table!

But here's what the rules say (with my interpolations in {}):

Votes shall take place at a table fashioned from the corpse of {a} tree. The table shall be of one (1) piece, unbroken and bearing suffi{cient} circumference to permit one (1) representative of each currently ext{ant clan} to stand before it simultaneously.

A card table wouldn't be big enough for every clan rep to stand before, it doesn't matter how many of them are actually still standing. The table size is an absolute requirement.

Of course, Gontor* has only just learned of the rule, making up plans on the fly isn't his core competency, and it really doesn't matter now anyway. But why should any of that stop a forum posting?

[Schroeswald]

Delurking to raise a point that I don't think has been made yet...

I think Gontor* is wrong here:



But here's what the rules say (with my interpolations in {}):



A card table wouldn't be big enough for every clan rep to stand before, it doesn't matter how many of them are actually still standing. The table size is an absolute requirement.

Of course, Gontor* has only just learned of the rule, making up plans on the fly isn't his core competency, and it really doesn't matter now anyway. But why should any of that stop a forum posting?

Oh yeah, they definitely can't, but he can (or well, he could) get a sufficiently large corpse of a tree to meet the requirements.

[Fyraltari]

Delurking to raise a point that I don't think has been made yet...

I think Gontor* is wrong here:

{snip explanation of required table width}

You obviously have never been to Poker Night in Firmament.

[D.One]

To prideful Gontor* say this I must
Just in time in the unavoidable clock
Though he tried to put up a fight
No one flees the revealing light
Let mud be mud, rock be rock
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

[factotum]

Look behind the speech bubble where the Exarch says "That wouldn't have even stopped me if it had hit!" You can see the mist.

Oh yes, I see it now. Boy, she didn't have much confidence in Gontor's plan, did she?

[Aquillion]

Oh yes, I see it now. Boy, she didn't have much confidence in Gontor's plan, did she?

In the second panel, she's looking in horror at something offscreen, so she probably saw something that made her mist out - possibly whoever / whatever threw the other vampire into the light.

[Schroeswald]

In the second panel, she's looking in horror at something offscreen, so she probably saw something that made her mist out - possibly whoever / whatever threw the other vampire into the light.

First off, what? Minrah threw Sandy in the light, you can see her dragging her in panel ten, and her arms in a throwing motion with a path from them to Sandy in panel 11.

Second off, presumably she realized that the hammer returns, and that it's going to return, and is getting out before it does.

[D.One]

In the second panel, she's looking in horror at something offscreen, so she probably saw something that made her mist out - possibly whoever / whatever threw the other vampire into the light.

Oh, she surely saw Minrah, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires, approaching.

[Quebbster]

Oh, she surely saw Minrah, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires, approaching.

We see the doorway is empty when the Ex-arch is looking through the rulebook in #1173, so the family hadn't quite arrived yet. I Think Curly is just naturally cautious (or a coward) as she fled Belkar's rage in the battle Before. She was also present at the tunnel ambush, and though we don't see her flee on-panel she pretty much must have done so when the tide turned.

[Reboot]

If it's possible to remove Durkon's turned-to-stone effect before it ends of its own accord (I'm not sure) then Elan might be able to do it with Bardic Music, which can replicate Break Enchantment, if he hasn't taken too many levels of Dashing Swordsman.

We've already seen him perform the Song of Freedom

Also, Squeaky & Jenna can apparently do it too

[Schroeswald]

Oh, she surely saw Minrah, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires, approaching.

I really hope this book ends with (by that I mean, the ending includes) Minrah, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires becoming an adventurer.

[factotum]

Second off, presumably she realized that the hammer returns, and that it's going to return, and is getting out before it does.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she was just looking at the hole where the hammer went, although she maybe hadn't realised it was coming back just yet, since it turns around several panels afterward.

[Schroeswald]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she was just looking at the hole where the hammer went, although she maybe hadn't realised it was coming back just yet, since it turns around several panels afterward.

She made a guess, Mjolnir returns so the Mjolnir-like object must return, now I'm leaving before it does something bad to me.

[Peelee]

She made a guess, Mjolnir returns so the Mjolnir-like object must return

Durkon's hammer doesn't really look much like Thor's hammer. Except for being a hammer. I certainly wouldn't think all thrown hammers were Mjolnir-like objects, though.

[Squire Doodad]

Durkon's hammer doesn't really look much like Thor's hammer. Except for being a hammer. I certainly wouldn't think all thrown hammers were Mjolnir-like objects, though.

It is a holy relic of Thor, so it is Mjolnir-adjacent.

[Dion]

So here’s the real question in my mind. When danger rears its ugly head, Curly* bravely runs away every time.

Do you suppose Curly** was the same way? In life, did she always run at the first sign of danger?

How much personality actually transfers from the host to the new vampire?

[JT]

A possible loophole... the action has to break Dwarven law. Using a supernatural ability on another creature certainly does. Using a supernatural ability one possesses (which one could argue is distinct from casting a spell on oneself - misting is just something you activate internally, spell energy is something from outside - particularly if divine magic) on oneself might not be technically breaking the law.

I agree there are multiple interpretations, and we only got The rules as understood by Gontor*, but he certainly felt that Supernatural ability use was just as forbidden as spellcasting.

As for casting/affecting “self” vs “other” creature... think about how spells that increase charisma would help if you were to cast it on yourself, and then start debating/influencing.
That would provide a big loophole, and -ought- to have been recognized when the laws were being set up.

(Again, though, I’m not bothered by it... I am here for the amazing story, and not to try and find fits to pick.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is a holy relic of Thor, so it is Mjolnir-adjacent.

Curly doesn't know that. She might have seen it return during the battle of the No OSHA compliance bridge outside, though.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

So here’s the real question in my mind. When danger rears its ugly head, Curly* bravely runs away every time.

Do you suppose Curly** was the same way? In life, did she always run at the first sign of danger?

How much personality actually transfers from the host to the new vampire?

I’d say Curly** was the opposite, she ran directly into danger, no matter the size, and so Curly doesn’t like that.