OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

[Squire Doodad]

I'm guessing the High Priestess of Hel (over in the Godsmoot) is just going to switch to being a pacifist once this is all done. Much simpler that way, and less likely to get you killed.

[Furious J]

She bolted out as soon as she couldn’t see the writing on the walls.

And to think that normally, it's the presence of writing on the wall that implies a bad end. Very nice, Fyraltari.

[flat_footed]

It's not smoking and she is taking a moment of pause after a clos call with death. Is nobody going to heal her?

Yeah, it looks like those two lines are just the string the amulet hung off of.

[Jasdoif]

Wait do you make grapple checks against CMD in D&D?

CMD doesn't exist in 3.5 ; grapple checks are usually opposed by others' grapple checks.

[Fyraltari]

And to think that normally, it's the presence of writing on the wall that implies a bad end. Very nice, Fyraltari.

Why, thank you.

[Krakes]

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

[137beth]

Whelp, after all the arguments about why Durkon broke the ceiling instead of hitting the table directly, it turned out my initial guess was right. He broke the ceiling to allow other dwarves to hold the vampires under the light.

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

I don't think she is actually cheating, just trying to find loopholes in the rules. She considered actually cheating by killing Durkon in the middle of the fight, but Thor and Loki arrived to make sure she didn't.

[CriticalFailure]

CMD doesn't exist in 3.5 ; grapple checks are usually opposed by others' grapple checks.

oopsies. Well, the point still stands.

[hroþila]

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

As far as I can tell, she hasn't cheated. She has used her clerics to interfere with a process that is not subject to Godsmoot law, as gods are wont to do.

[Fyraltari]

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

She hasn't. Ain't no rule stopping her from interfering with a bunch of dwarfs vting on things beyond their ken. If Dvalin wants to listen to what mortals think, that's his prerogative but it is not part of the Gods' agreement. She was about to cheat but Thor barged in to haggle over souls first.

Edit: hroþila'd.

[xroads]

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

If anything, I wonder if Thor might have cheated a bit there with the return flight of the hammer. Was he allowed to guide it's path? And presuming he did cheat, will there be repercussions for it?

[HandofShadows]

Don't let any of the fanged ones leave.

[Schroeswald]

So why isn’t Logann up here? He was next to the entrance when we last saw him and he still hasn’t made it through.

[Fyraltari]

So, does Gontor*'s death automatically unsommon Likeable Deathworm?

So why isn’t Logann up here? He was next to the entrance when we last saw him and he still hasn’t made it through.

He's blind. He's probably sitting outside waiting for someone to cure him.

[Morquard]

OMG, that's so awesome! DWARVES ARE AWESOME! you hear me!?

[Worldsong]

I knew there was going to be at least one person suggesting that Gontor misted out. Having checked the 3.5e SRD it does look like a vampire exposed to sunlight is rendered unable to mist out. Makes sense since if they could mist out and slip into a crack even when exposed to their greatest weakness killing a vampire would become even more of a nuisance than it already is.

Also I like how a lot of us forum-goers were putting money on Durkon because "This book is about Durkon" only for The Giant to remind us that part of Durkon's story is his family.

And the Exarch died as he lived... ranting impotently at things he couldn't change. His entire plan was based around avoiding a direct conflict to instead abuse the rules to win, so the moment that he tried to make use of the fact that the rules were no longer in place his fate was sealed. If he'd kept a cool head he could have realized that he'd be better off misting and running away, regrouping and figuring out a new plan. Of course the odds of him being able to find a way to win at this point were very low at best but even if he couldn't fulfil Hel's plan he could at least survive, and maybe build up a gathering of followers for Hel so the goddess would have some amount of devotion amongst the mortals.

So there's now two vampires left, one who's stuck at the Godsmoot and one who fled the council meeting before they could get thrown into the sunlight (there might be others but they're the only ones who have been shown to survive so far). However with both Durkon and Guntor no longer being vampires it's almost certain that they're no longer thralls (that is, controlled by their sire). Both Greg and the Exarch turned out to be willing to go along with Hel's plan not because dwarven vampires automatically do what Hel wants them to do but because their personalities made them willing to go along with the plan (Greg because Durkon had a suppressed grudge against his fellow dwarves, Exarch because... I got the feeling he just was too eager to follow orders).

I wonder if those two vampires now being their own person will change anything? The one at the Godsmoot wasn't a dwarf, so it could be that she has no connection to Hel at all at this point.

...Hmmm. Could the way for this arc to end be that by delaying the vote for long enough that they could sever the connection between Hel and the vampire at the Godsmoot her vote is made null and the gods voting against destroying the world win? That would also mean that Dvalin can tell the council that he no longer needs their council, so even with a broken table they can still formally end the meeting and allow Durkon to be depetrified.

[gatemansgc]

So why isn’t Logann up here? He was next to the entrance when we last saw him and he still hasn’t made it through.

he's still blinded, i guess.

[ASCIInerd73]

If anything, I wonder if Thor might have cheated a bit there with the return flight of the hammer. Was he allowed to guide it's path? And presuming he did cheat, will there be repercussions for it?

He likely did not cheat with the hammer. The art of the hammer turning around and flying back is the same as in #1160, so that was probably just the hammer doing it's regular returning.

And, even if he did cheat and nudge the hammer a little bit, the gods probably wouldn't notice because, according to Hel, they're all busy looking at the channeling of Dvalin inside the room.

[denthor]

New sport, vampire dwarf tossing!

No one tosses a dwarf.

[Peelee]

So, does Gontor*'s death automatically unsommon Likeable Deathworm?

My money is on that creature having the scientific name Defeaticus Offscreenicus.

[Fyraltari]

I see no reason why it would be against the rules for Thor to throw a hammer consecrated to him at some stones. After all, the Church of Thor cannot be held liable if a roof just so happens to collapse over where the dwarves chose to put a table.

EDIT:

No one tosses a dwarf.

It's actually permissible as long as you don't tell any elf.

[Schroeswald]

So there's now two vampires left, one who's stuck at the Godsmoot and one who fled the council meeting before they could get thrown into the sunlight (there might be others but they're the only ones who have been shown to survive so far). However with both Durkon and Guntor no longer being vampires it's almost certain that they're no longer thralls (that is, controlled by their sire). Both Greg and the Exarch turned out to be willing to go along with Hel's plan not because dwarven vampires automatically do what Hel wants them to do but because their personalities made them willing to go along with the plan (Greg because Durkon had a suppressed grudge against his fellow dwarves, Exarch because... I got the feeling he just was too eager to follow orders).

I wonder if those two vampires now being their own person will change anything? The one at the Godsmoot wasn't a dwarf, so it could be that she has no connection to Hel at all at this point.

...Hmmm. Could the way for this arc to end be that by delaying the vote for long enough that they could sever the connection between Hel and the vampire at the Godsmoot her vote is made null and the gods voting against destroying the world win? That would also mean that Dvalin can tell the council that he no longer needs their council, so even with a broken table they can still formally end the meeting and allow Durkon to be depetrified.

Are we sure that they were ever thralls? Ponchula, the Exarch and Sandy all seemed to have much more free will than Durkula did as Malack’s thrall.

[Dausuul]

They can, but they only get one action in sunlight and are destroyed the next round.

Actually they can't. They are allowed one move action, or one attack action; misting out is neither a move nor an attack.

The Exarch even alluded to this when Durkon first broke open the hole in the ceiling: "Oh wait, I can move." One more way in which the Exarch lived (sorta) and died by the rules. :)

[Aetius]

He's blind. He's probably sitting outside waiting for someone to cure him.

Or he died a heroic death, meaning Durkons decision to leave him there, blind as he was, turned out to be the right one but came with a price.
And like his mum he is now faced with the decision to revive his relative who died under his command - or let him enjoy his hard earned reward in the afterlife.



But probably the blind thing, yes.

[Fyraltari]

Every vampire we've seen besides the Frontarch, Curly and Sandy (for now) has been dusted, I checked at the time.

Since Durkon won't be unstoned until the meeting is done, my guees is that the elders will fetch a card table, vote no, and the Orderwill go save the world while the Frontarch mists out of Zenith Peak to try and found a new Church of Hel and Curly remains trapped inside the Dwarven Lands starting a vampire infestation.

[ASCIInerd73]

...Hmmm. Could the way for this arc to end be that by delaying the vote for long enough that they could sever the connection between Hel and the vampire at the Godsmoot her vote is made null and the gods voting against destroying the world win? That would also mean that Dvalin can tell the council that he no longer needs their council, so even with a broken table they can still formally end the meeting and allow Durkon to be depetrified.

I'm sure V can cast Stone To Flesh, so Durkon can be unpetrified. He could possibly even be saved if his family carried him out through the orange barrier to dispel any magical effects. So Durkon is probably fine and going to be unpetrified shortly.

And that's assuming that none of Durkon's family can unpetrify. It's possible that we'll see them cure Durkon immediately in the next strip.

[Worldsong]

Are we sure that they were ever thralls? Ponchula, the Exarch and Sandy all seemed to have much more free will than Durkula did as Malack’s thrall.

True, although knowing Greg I suspect that his behaviour isn't necessarily a good example of how an enthralled vampire behaves. I'd imagine that while an enthralled vampire can't go against the will of their sire they do still have their own personality and thoughts, and Greg just decided to act like a more simple-minded thrall while he had yet to absorb many memories from Durkon's mind (and perhaps to trick Malack into releasing him earlier than if he acted like a possible threat).

Also if they weren't thralls I'd have to ask Greg what the Hel he was thinking.

[Jasdoif]

So, does Gontor*'s death automatically unsommon Likeable Deathworm?

Probably not automatically; gate is much closer to the summoning of Zzdrti's piscoloth, which left under its own power because its boss was dead.

[Fyraltari]

True, although knowing Greg I suspect that his behaviour isn't necessarily a good example of how an enthralled vampire behaves. I'd imagine that while an enthralled vampire can't go against the will of their sire they do still have their own personality and thoughts, and Greg just decided to act like a more simple-minded thrall while he had yet to absorb many memories from Durkon's mind (and perhaps to trick Malack into releasing him earlier than if he acted like a possible threat).

Also if they weren't thralls I'd have to ask Greg what the Hel he was thinking.

He was thinking that, like him, they would have had no time to form an emotional connection with anyone but would be extremely angry at a particular group of people and he offered them revenge and power.

Also the non-spellcaster vampires behaved as childishly as he did: «*she burned us with the bad light*»

[Schroeswald]

True, although knowing Greg I suspect that his behaviour isn't necessarily a good example of how an enthralled vampire behaves. I'd imagine that while an enthralled vampire can't go against the will of their sire they do still have their own personality and thoughts, and Greg just decided to act like a more simple-minded thrall while he had yet to absorb many memories from Durkon's mind (and perhaps to trick Malack into releasing him earlier than if he acted like a possible threat).

Also if they weren't thralls I'd have to ask Greg what the Hel he was thinking.

Im pretty sure the appearance count thread counts him as not appearing until Malack died, which is a vote for thralls not having much free will.