OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[faustin]

If Loki genuinelly cares about Hel, what stops him from forfeiting the bet? I don't think even Thor wants to see his niece wasting away like this.

[Shepsquared]

If Like genuinelly cares about Hel, what stops him from forfeiting the bet? I don't think even Thor wants to see his niece wasting away like this.

Loki probably expected Hel to forfeit the bet ages ago.

[The MunchKING]

If Like genuinelly cares about Hel, what stops him from forfeiting the bet? I don't think even Thor wants to see his niece wasting away like this.

He probably Can't. Aside from the fact that the Bet is between Thor and Hel, and he was just a middleman, it's pretty strongly implied in this strip that the Bet is baked into the Rules of this world.

[Schroeswald]

Loki is sad because he knows Hel is right. Following procedural rules really won’t save the world.

She’s given him something to think about.

I’d say he’s working with Thor and knows what he’s doing, when Elan blew up the gate I bet they decided that they needed to help the Order and fix it.

[atemu1234]

Loki is sad because he knows Hel is right. Following procedural rules really won’t save the world.

She’s given him something to think about.

To be fair, he knows that playing by procedural rules won't save the world. He's a god of mischief; pulling one over on people who play by procedural rules is his M.O.

I'd say he's probably just bummed that his own daughter hates his guts.

[Lord Torath]

Frost Giant god guy is so caring!

It's very sweet.

Thrym. His name is Thrym.

Thanks, Giant!

[danielxcutter]

To be honest, I think at least half the reason Loki went for the Bet in the first place, is because he never expected this world to last any longer than the others, and if it wasn't for the possibility of using the Dark One's quiddity to seal away the Snarl for good, he wouldn't have tried to stop her either.

Also jeez that fourth panel.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Looking at her lack of aura in that frame, it makes me think she's in worse shape than the dark one.

On that note, I wonder if we will see another purple aura god emerge in this comic?

[Psyren]

I wonder why she attenuated like that? I know she's not getting a lot of soul energy due to the wager, and Thor and Loki's gambits took even more away, but she seems actually close to a brink of some kind. Those vampire clerics can't have taken it out of her that much?

[Heksefatter]

Hel actually surprisede there. I wouldn't have thought that she hates her dad that much.

[slayerx]

Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

That only applies to different pantheons. Anything created with a single color aura can be easily erased by a god. What creates a god killing snarl is when they accidentally create something that is mutlicolored; i.e an argument between two gods of different pantheons.

[Riftwolf]

Frost Giant god guy is so caring!

It's very sweet.

Not really?
He's a classic Nice Guy* and should've quit several pages ago (possibly after some Real Talk with Thor), but persists because he's Nice*and surely she'll see that one day**!
*who expects shows of false sympathy and fawning to win over the girl because that's what every rom-com and love song tells him will work
As for Hels little rant, it's very much in the 'I hate you forever!' category of teenage arguments, and Lokis probably a little stunned that she blames him, but also how impotent her threats are seeing as she might not survive to the next world (she's getting worn out from being angry now, never mind about after a fewer centuries without worship)
**because putting someone else in charge of your own happiness is healthy. Unfortunately I can't mark that sentence as both white and blue. But consider it an Azorius statement

[Coatillion]

I wonder why she attenuated like that? I know she's not getting a lot of soul energy due to the wager, and Thor and Loki's gambits took even more away, but she seems actually close to a brink of some kind. Those vampire clerics can't have taken it out of her that much?

I think its because the undead don't have souls, so all the power she's giving her clerics comes with no return for her. Thats why Loki's wager is so damaging for her. She can only draw power from the dregs of dwarven society and will have no influence on the world unless she exhausts her remaining power to empower her clerics. I think that's why Loki looks so concerned in the last frame. He's realizing that if this world survives Hel will die.

[Peelee]

"I wanted to help my kid in my own special way, but I ended up screwing her future. Now she hates me and wishes me dead."

Something like that?

That interpretation I like.

Loki is sad because he knows Hel is right. Following procedural rules really won’t save the world.

She’s given him something to think about.

Not really? If they can forestall the end, then they can work with The Dark One to save the world. He knows this.

[xroads]

Wow!

I didn't realize how bad of shape Hel is in. I wonder if there is a way to subvert the bet? Like maybe Thor or Loki agree to channel some of their clerical feed into Hel, and she agrees not to argue for souls that they contest?

[Psyren]

I think its because the undead don't have souls, so all the power she's giving her clerics comes with no return for her. Thats why Loki's wager is so damaging for her. She can only draw power from the dregs of dwarven society and will have no influence on the world unless she exhausts her remaining power to empower her clerics. I think that's why Loki looks so concerned in the last frame. He's realizing that if this world survives Hel will die.

Good point, and I forgot this conversation as well. Her primary source of sustenance is Dedication, i.e. when dwarves die dishonorably; she's out of balance, and so she is more messed up than she's ever been.

I do find it odd though; any god of monsters should be in the same boat as her. Is it because her Worshipers have to be intelligent undead, since no living dwarf in their right mind would do it? That's a pretty raw deal.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wow!

I didn't realize how bad of shape Hel is in. I wonder if there is a way to subvert the bet? Like maybe Thor or Loki agree to channel some of their clerical feed into Hel, and she agrees not to argue for souls that they contest?

I suggested they could reach an agreement where the vampires are allowed to staff Hel temples (with some kind of arrangement that stops the vampires from murdering the population, etc) so that she can have some proper worship in this world.

ETA:

I do find it odd though; any god of monsters should be in the same boat as her. Is it because her Worshipers have to be intelligent undead, since no living dwarf in their right mind would do it? That's a pretty raw deal.

Not quite, as I understand it. She'd be allowed to have worshipers as long as they aren't priests, but it's impossible to get worshipers without priests to guide them, I'm guessing.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

To be fair, he knows that playing by procedural rules won't save the world. He's a god of mischief; pulling one over on people who play by procedural rules is his M.O.

I'd say he's probably just bummed that his own daughter hates his guts.

Yea, maybe the joke turned out more mean and less funny than he initially intended.

[Ornithologist]

This does make me somewhat sympathetic of Hel, though not enough to let her get away with anything.

Maybe part of the denouement will have Loki put a vote up at the Godsmoot to end the bet early without consequences. That would likely help Hel survive in a planet that will not be destroyed by the snarl.

[Kantaki]

Unholy Hel...
Goddess of Death and Disease indeed.

[The MunchKING]

I do find it odd though; any god of monsters should be in the same boat as her. Is it because her Worshipers have to be intelligent undead, since no living dwarf in their right mind would do it? That's a pretty raw deal.

Why would Fenir (the God of Monsters ) have that kind of problem? Loads of monsters are reasonably intelligent and can pray while they prey.

[Grey Watcher]

Dang, Hel at maximum art detail is SCARY!

Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

Doesn't sound like an "or" situation to me. If they do manage to pull of the Dark One gambit, he's condemned his daughter to millenia, possibly eons, of a slow, wasting demise. If not, she gets to put her vengeful fury into full force, possibly with extra powers if the gods do manage to destroy the world before the Snarl does. Either way, she hates him, possibly forever (which, for a god, is a much longer time than for us mortals).

Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

In the Thor explains metaphysics episode, he says that single-quiddity-color creations are trivially easy to destroy (at least for gods), so I doubt this will result in any Snarl-like problems.

[MReav]

Why would Fenir (the God of Monsters ) have that kind of problem? Loads of monsters are reasonably intelligent and can pray while they prey.

Plus Hel mentioned in the last world, people would pray to her not to die. You would do the same to the god of monsters to not get mauled by monsters.

[Anymage]

If Loki genuinelly cares about Hel, what stops him from forfeiting the bet? I don't think even Thor wants to see his niece wasting away like this.

There's a big question mark as to whether the bet could even be called off. I'm of the opinion that it could, based on admittedly little evidence. Doing so would require Hel to admit a loss, though, paying whatever the terms of the bet were and more importantly eating crow. Hel's pride is the biggest thing standing in the way.

On that note, I wonder if we will see another purple aura god emerge in this comic?

Not within the comic's timeline. If nothing else, it isn't Rich's style to have a solution swoop out of nowhere and there have been no hints that anybody is close to ascension.

If TDO gets a seat at the divine table and the world lasts for a while longer, I'm sure that other goblinoids will ascend to team purple. That's a very long-term view, though.

I wonder why she attenuated like that? I know she's not getting a lot of soul energy due to the wager, and Thor and Loki's gambits took even more away, but she seems actually close to a brink of some kind. Those vampire clerics can't have taken it out of her that much?

She did just lose a year's worth of souls, but she does have three of the four elements of a divine diet going for her. Souls and dedications weren't too scarce (her recent release notwithstanding), and all of dwarven society being afraid of her means that she doesn't lack for belief. It's worship where, depending on interpretation, she either gets negligible or none.

She probably has enough oomph in her to make it across a time between worlds, although she'll be really hungry. And her imbalanced diet is screwing her up even now.

[GregTD]

She declared war on an evil God, and told him that he needs to make sure all her clerics get snuffed early?

Wow, she really is stupid

[Gift Jeraff]

Getting together with Thrym might be in Hel's best interest at this point if she is indeed on the verge of withering away. We saw Malack dedicating a shrine to both Nergal and his wife, so presumably having some frost giants pray to them as an unholy union would allow her to survive if the current world and the wager last indefinitely.

Though from the way Thor worded it, Belief seems like the most important part for a god to continue existing, and there will always be Belief in her existence as long as the dwarven afterlife rules remain.

[GregTD]

As for Hels little rant, it's very much in the 'I hate you forever!' category of teenage arguments, and Loki is probably a little stunned that she blames him

Loki is the one who proposed the bet. He should be blamed.

But only a total idiot tells an evil God "it's war to the knife". Smart evil people attack from behind.

Eh... I mean it kind of depends on how much anti-vampire upgrades the Council of the Clans can actually do before the reconvene. If those domes were rare artifact magic from some forgotten Golden age that can't be easily duplicated, then upping the anti vampire factor may not be that plausible before they have to make a new vote.

When your world gets nuked every thousand years, it's rather difficult to have a "forgotten Golden Age".

All they need to do is have the Orange protections kick in a second time at the Blue level, and Hel's plan is toast. I'm pretty sure their God will be willing to help them with that one

[ben-zayb]

I'm getting a Tarquin-Nale vibe just from before T snuffed his son. Like that of an exasperated resignation on his kid.

How mature is Hel supposed to be anyway?

[Schroeswald]

I'm getting a Tarquin-Nale vibe just from before T snuffed his son. Like that of an exasperated resignation on his kid.

How mature is Hel supposed to be anyway?

Young adult but losing her mind every second.

[Grey Watcher]

If TDO gets a seat at the divine table and the world lasts for a while longer, I'm sure that other goblinoids will ascend to team purple. That's a very long-term view, though.

Maybe not even just goblinoids! Maybe a whole "monster pantheon"! Even without matching quiddity, The Dark One would probably be more likely to trust a fellow "outsider" like a newly ascended God(dess) of Trolls ^{(No, not that kind of troll.)} than even the most "monstrous" of the established pantheons (eg Tiamat).

Plus we don't know how "sponsorship" (for want of a better term) works with ascension, but he might see a near-apotheosis entity with aligned interests and deliberately induct them. (I mean, there has to be a reason the elven gods all ended up Red, right? One presumes it's because at least the first one(s) got some sort of sponsorship from one or more existing Red deities.)

Loki is the one who proposed the bet. He should be blamed.

I'm inclined to agree. Loki may be charming enough to garner some (undeserved) sympathy anyway, but this bet is downright abusive. Teaching your child about proper nutrition by deliberately starving them of a key nutrient? Yeouch.