OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

Okay, you know what, I need to know who you’re talking about as a textbook Mary Sue, because if your talking about Durkon, I completely ignored him due to his male gender and only you hating him, is it Sigdi? Are you calling Sigdi the Mary Sue? Because none of the characters I mentioned are loved by everyone, in fact most of them have clear people who hate them, and of them only Andi hating Bandana is actually shown as wrong (most of the rest are shown as right).

Tbh, to me, gender is irrelevant to the concept. One could argue Superman is a Mary Sue. I wouldn't quite agree, but there's still enough overlap for me to hate that character regardless. :P

[Schroeswald]

Tbh, to me, gender is irrelevant to the concept. One could argue Superman is a Mary Sue. I wouldn't quite agree, but there's still enough overlap for me to hate that character regardless. :P

I was talking about girls beyond the Mary Sue argument, none of the female characters in this comic are called Mary Sues, but a lot of them get a lot of hate, so I was wondering who this textbook Mary Sue he was talking about was, and since women I didn’t mention is still mostly not a non-sequitur I was assuming that.

[Goblin_Priest]

I was talking about girls beyond the Mary Sue argument, none of the female characters in this comic are called Mary Sues, but a lot of them get a lot of hate, so I was wondering who this textbook Mary Sue he was talking about was, and since women I didn’t mention is still mostly not a non-sequitur I was assuming that.

Yea, no idea.

[KorvinStarmast]

What happens if you hit Multiquote, then Reply to Thread?

The same thing did, but now a few hours later the problem is gone away.

Magic!

[Dion]

Biggest Mary Sue of all time:

Ben Affleck.

Seriously.

Can you believe that guy being a movie star, much less Batman? Heck no. Of course not. Whoever wrote the story on that one is absolutely delusional.

[Squire Doodad]

Biggest Mary Sue of all time:

Ben Affleck.

Seriously.

Can you believe that guy being a movie star, much less Batman? Heck no. Of course not. Whoever wrote the story on that one is absolutely delusional.

Counterpoint: Dante Alighieri.

Going through the depths of hell, traversing purgatory and chilling in heaven? All with hardly a scratch on you?

Man, talk about wish-fulfillment.

[Peelee]

Biggest Mary Sue of all time:

Ben Affleck.

Seriously.

Can you believe that guy being a movie star, much less Batman? Heck no. Of course not. Whoever wrote the story on that one is absolutely delusional.

You forgot Oscar winner.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Two Oscars (on two noms), two BAFTAs (on three noms), four Emmy noms, three Golden Globes (on four noms), a DGA, a PGA and two SAG Awards. Oh, and four Razzies, for tone.

[Ruck]

And to help Dion out I’ll give another Mary Sue, Sherlock Holmes, we never learn why he’s so smart and so good of a detective.

The cocaine addiction, right?

Biggest Mary Sue of all time:

Ben Affleck.

Seriously.

Can you believe that guy being a movie star, much less Batman? Heck no. Of course not. Whoever wrote the story on that one is absolutely delusional.

Probably Matt Damon, though he was nice enough to put Affleck's name on it too.

[Goblin_Priest]

Counterpoint: Dante Alighieri.

Going through the depths of hell, traversing purgatory and chilling in heaven? All with hardly a scratch on you?

Man, talk about wish-fulfillment.

From what I heard about Inferno, yea... that's quite a lot of wish-fulfillment in there. Not quite sure it'd qualify as a Mary Sue, though, because he often has his buddy come and help him out and do everything, as opposed to just being able to do it all on his own, but still getting pretty close.

[Fyraltari]

Counterpoint: Dante Alighieri.

Going through the depths of hell, traversing purgatory and chilling in heaven? All with hardly a scratch on you?

Man, talk about wish-fulfillment.

Doesn’t he gets seven scratches on him in purgatory? Specifically magic burn scars for his sins.
Also he isn’t there to do anything or fight anyone, he’s just getting a tour and the whole thing is a dream anyway.

[Squire Doodad]

Doesn’t he gets seven scratches on him in purgatory? Specifically magic burn scars for his sins.
Also he isn’t there to do anything or fight anyone, he’s just getting a tour and the whole thing is a dream anyway.

7 scratches doesn't mean much in comparison to...well, all of Hell past Limbo. And a bit before it, too.

[Fyraltari]

7 scratches doesn't mean much in comparison to...well, all of Hell past Limbo. And a bit before it, too.

Sure, but why would he be tortured exactly? He isn't even dead yet.

[Squire Doodad]

Sure, but why would he be tortured exactly? He isn't even dead yet.

He's in an area where everyone else is being tortured.
He is not.

He gets to go explore the entirety of the afterlife (give or take) without needing to die and without any horrible punishment or complete and utter agony (psychological stuff like from the Bolgias notwithstanding).

[Fyraltari]

He's in an area where everyone else is being tortured.
He is not.

He gets to go explore the entirety of the afterlife (give or take) without needing to die and without any horrible punishment or complete and utter agony (psychological stuff like from the Bolgias notwithstanding).

Neither is Virgil.

I mean, the entire story is a dream Dante-as-character is having as an allegorical moral tale and you say that that the story doesn't end with him at chapter one chasing a banner indefinitely makes the character a Mary Sue? That's really weird to me.

You realize there are no particular stakes in this story, nor any kind of change in the satus quo, everybody stays where they beginned, right? It's literally just a tour.

[Schroeswald]

Weren't we trying to give examples of Rey-comparable characters who clearly weren't Mary Sues? And then we try to argue over whether Dante is a Mary Sue.

[Squire Doodad]

Neither is Virgil.

I mean, the entire story is a dream Dante-as-character is having as an allegorical moral tale and you say that that the story doesn't end with him at chapter one chasing a banner indefinitely makes the character a Mary Sue? That's really weird to me.

You realize there are no particular stakes in this story, nor any kind of change in the satus quo, everybody stays where they beginned, right? It's literally just a tour.

The point was that Dante goes to the afterlife to have a tour and is an author avatar of the highest degree (being literally Dante Alighieri), and so is the ultimate Mary Sue.
Then we started taking it slightly too seriously, whoops XD

[Goblin_Priest]

Weren't we trying to give examples of Rey-comparable characters who clearly weren't Mary Sues? And then we try to argue over whether Dante is a Mary Sue.

If anyone, I'd say Virgil is perhaps the Mary Sue of that story.

But, to be honest, I haven't actually read the book.

[Squire Doodad]

If anyone, I'd say Virgil is perhaps the Mary Sue of that story.

But, to be honest, I haven't actually read the book.

The Inferno in particular is a good read (it's a trilogy known as Divine Comedy (meaning it ends well), consisting of The Inferno, The Purgatory, and The Paradise). I'd recommend the Ciardi translation, though if you know Italian very well (i.e. first-language or equivalent fluency) then try reading it in that.

Virgil essentially is the one that overcomes most of the obstacles, but in a more Gandalf or Obi-Wan-esque way; he's Dante's mentor, not the hero.

[Goblin_Priest]

The Inferno in particular is a good read (it's a trilogy known as Divine Comedy (meaning it ends well), consisting of The Inferno, The Purgatory, and The Paradise). I'd recommend the Ciardi translation, though if you know Italian very well (i.e. first-language or equivalent fluency) then try reading it in that.

Virgil essentially is the one that overcomes most of the obstacles, but in a more Gandalf or Obi-Wan-esque way; he's Dante's mentor, not the hero.

Disclaimer: my knowledge of Dante's Inferno is limited to Overly Sarcastic Productions' summary of it.

Lieutenant Mary Sue was created as a parody, a character that defied all expectations, excelled at everything, and was unanimously loved. She satyrized fanfics where people created characters that were too perfect and fulfilled some sort of wish fulfillment in allowing them to interact via proxy with their idols.

There's a similar dynamic that appears to go on in Inferno. Virgil is the object of adoration, much as Mary Sue, and like her can pretty much overcome any challenge presented to him. While he's not himself a projection of the author, his presence still serves the wish fulfillment by him becoming Dante's friend and aid, much as how Spock, Kirk, and everyone loved Lieutenant Mary Sue, Dante and Virgil become best buds.

After Rey, I'd say Virgil sounds like one of the best candidates for being a Mary Sue.

But I didn't read the book so maybe I don't really know anything about how Virgil is really portrayed. XD

[Squire Doodad]

Disclaimer: my knowledge of Dante's Inferno is limited to Overly Sarcastic Productions' summary of it.

Lieutenant Mary Sue was created as a parody, a character that defied all expectations, excelled at everything, and was unanimously loved. She satyrized fanfics where people created characters that were too perfect and fulfilled some sort of wish fulfillment in allowing them to interact via proxy with their idols.

There's a similar dynamic that appears to go on in Inferno. Virgil is the object of adoration, much as Mary Sue, and like her can pretty much overcome any challenge presented to him. While he's not himself a projection of the author, his presence still serves the wish fulfillment by him becoming Dante's friend and aid, much as how Spock, Kirk, and everyone loved Lieutenant Mary Sue, Dante and Virgil become best buds.

After Rey, I'd say Virgil sounds like one of the best candidates for being a Mary Sue.

But I didn't read the book so maybe I don't really know anything about how Virgil is really portrayed. XD

Pick it up from a library, though I don't think you would have read it in 30 minutes XD

As I said earlier, Virgil is more of a mentor character. He can surpass most of the obstacles, but his staying time is limited and he is there to aid Dante than anything else. Also, there are plenty of times where Virgil is powerless and they resort to semi-literal Lesser-Deus ex Machina. If I remember correctly, Virgil doesn't go with Dante to the Paradise, but rather has to return to Limbo.

[Peelee]

Weren't we trying to give examples of Rey-comparable characters who clearly weren't Mary Sues?

Aye. Like Luke Skywalker.

[Squire Doodad]

Aye. Like Luke Skywalker.

Honestly, I feel like Luke actually has reasonable power for who he is. Given the Doylist setting - quick power gain for movie reasons, son of force guy, no past instances of this to compare power to - Luke actually does pretty well. There are some issues with him suddenly taking command of shooting Death Stars like Womp Rats and how he goes one on one with a (holding back) apparent pure evil Sith Lord despite having little training, but most of those are understandable and work out to be the result of the medium and suspension of disbelief instead of sudden plot holes.

Then we get to Thanos.

Wait, no, wrong thread? They seem to be merging...

[Schroeswald]

Aye. Like Luke Skywalker.

Or like I said before Sherlock Holmes, a clear Mary Sue, how'd he get to be such a detective huh? Why would the best detective ever live with some random doctor? Its unrealistic I tell you!

[Squire Doodad]

Or like I said before Sherlock Holmes, a clear Mary Sue, how'd he get to be such a detective huh? Why would the best detective ever live with some random doctor? Its unrealistic I tell you!

Doctor Who is a Mary Sue. Ridiculously long life, time travel box, strong omni-tool doodad, nifty haircut sometimes? Inconcievable!

...though that is more a member of a race of superbeings being the protagonist, and it is balanced better than, say, Superman.

You know you've done something wrong when you need to make an ultra rare material that kills the hero to stop him from being an instant win button in all situations. Which, I might add, took about 10 years to pop up.

[Jasdoif]

Weren't we trying to give examples of Rey-comparable characters who clearly weren't Mary Sues?

Aye. Like Luke Skywalker.

Wait, what? I thought we were talking about horrible storytelling and how it isn't fair to blame the obvious character for being butchered by a poorly-presented narrative; what does that have to do with Luke?

[Schroeswald]

Doctor Who is a Mary Sue. Ridiculously long life, time travel box, strong omni-tool doodad, nifty haircut sometimes? Inconcievable!

...though that is more a member of a race of superbeings being the protagonist, and it is balanced better than, say, Superman.

They've been balancing Superman to threats more than once a month since 1938, I'd say he's pretty well balanced.

And here's another Mary Sue: Batman! Honestly we can keep naming superheroes and call them Mary Sues as long as we want, it'll be fun (The Flash! Robin! Green Lantern! Thor!).

[KorvinStarmast]

An interesting take on the Divine Comedy is Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's Inferno.
Shorter than the English translation of Dante's original. Won some awards when it came out.

[Squire Doodad]

They've been balancing Superman to threats more than once a month since 1938, I'd say he's pretty well balanced.

And here's another Mary Sue: Batman! Honestly we can keep naming superheroes and call them Mary Sues as long as we want, it'll be fun (The Flash! Robin! Green Lantern! Thor!).

My point is that the Doctor started out human and evolved into a high-tech race that regenerates through many lives, but he is still quite mortal. He's good at getting out of things, but he also runs into difficulties that he cannot surmount with his plan quite often.

Superman took a while to amass his current trove of abilities, but he started out with incredible abilities and is effectively immortal (aging notwithstanding), whereas the Doctor is only seemingly immortal due to his regeneration abilities and time travel; in theory someone could lock him up and be done with it over the course of a few weeks.

Though yes, this is fun
The biggest Mary Sue is obviously Picard. They've been exploring space for generations now, how come Picard constantly finds some fascinating phenomenon every week?! Sure he might not be superpowered, but he keeps on finding all these things!

[Peelee]

Honestly, I feel like Luke actually has reasonable power for who he is. Given the Doylist setting - quick power gain for movie reasons, son of force guy, no past instances of this to compare power to - Luke actually does pretty well. There are some issues with him suddenly taking command of shooting Death Stars like Womp Rats and how he goes one on one with a (holding back) apparent pure evil Sith Lord despite having little training, but most of those are understandable and work out to be the result of the medium and suspension of disbelief instead of sudden plot holes.

Take away the other movies for a moment. He's the son of a Jedi Knight. What's that have to do with anything? There's no explanation of it being genetic, or inherited, just "oh hey let me teach you." and, after a few minutes and Ben teaching Luke one thing, he can make a remarkably difficult shot without the assistance of a targeting computer. Heck, he even gets to be one of the few who gets to take a shot! He's assigned wingmen to protect him, he's been given command of an attack run on the Death Star, all on the say-so of one of his friends saying he's the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim. The same kid who was excitedly pointing and yelling "what's that?!" at the console on the Falcon not a few hours prior.

Wait, what? I thought we were talking about horrible storytelling and how it isn't fair to blame the obvious character for being butchered by a poorly-presented narrative

Ah, well, that too.