building a warlord

[hammerspace]

i am trying to build level 6 warlord
at the moment I am trying to decide which commanding presence I want to take.

sightfull presence seems usefull for the rider on powerfull warning. the Ap feature gives a bonus to defense which seems less usefull compared to the other presences

I have no idea if the other presences have any interesting riders

bravura presence can give partymembers a nice extra attack with the ap feature(with the risk of granting combat adavantage and not getting the attack)


resourcefull presence ap feature gives an damage bonus on hit and tmp hp on miss, but it relies on 2 different secondary stats.


tactical presence ap fearure gives a nice bonus to hit

does anyone have any links to warlord build that are focused on insightfull presence?
or any opinions on abilities that have good riders for bravura, resourcefull or tactical presence?

[masteraleph]

None of them is going to make or break your build. But of the choices at level 6, I tend to think that Bravura or Resourceful is tops. Bravura is great if you have allies with strong basic attacks and good accuracy (that is, it makes a strong party better). Resourceful is strong, and perhaps better if you have allies with multi-attacking- though it might be better at higher levels with even more multi attacks.

[hammerspace]

perhaps I should metion my party.
I used to play and ardent, but I found it to focussed on melee and lacking armor for a character that needs to be in melee.

the rest of the party: a revenant genasi wind elementalist, an eledrin hybrid wizard/swordmage, a warforged fighter.
we used to have an halfelf invoker but he moved away recently.

[Vhaidara]

Insightful is pretty bad, but makes up for it by having some of the best riders in the class.

Reosurceful is probably the strongest presence warlord has, generally speaking. The key to it is that it does not require 2 stats. You want Int, because you don't want to plan around your allies missing. And half level + stat is one of the strongest damage steroids in the game. It is worth noting that it also applies to the entire AP action, and works on unrolled damage. So if the ranger uses Twin Strike, it applies to both hits. If the battlemind uses Brutal Barrage, it applies to all 3-4 of the attacks.
Resourceful also opens up the Infernal Strategist PP, which is incredibly powerful. The U12 is basically an encounter "this person gets double benefits from my presence, letting them add my entire level and double my secondary to their damage". The F11 is a really powerful damage steroid for melee allies (have +5 damage for smart positioning). And the F16 lets you pick up riders from another presence.

[RedMage125]

Before that PP came out, Resourceful used to be considered "1/2 tactical and 1/2 Inspiring", because +to hit was generally viewed as better than +dmg, and healing is better than temp hp, so Resourceful gave you the second best of both, rather than the best of one. Due to "power creep" (in quotes because it was really feat taxes meant to correct the assumptions about the math), however, a PC being able to get an important hit to land is usually not that difficult.

Resourceful also works for a "lzay warlord" build that focuses ONLY on INT and CHA, if you like. But with only 4 PCs and not great damage output, I would not recommend a lazy warlord build. Honestly, lazy warlord build are best for a group with a rogue, IMHO.

Warlords are all about (both mechanically and thematically) learning how to find optimal combinations of riders and bonuses to maximize the party's DPR. As Keledrath alluded to, it sometimes depends on your party's composition. If you had a Rageblood Barbarian Supercharger, for example, I'd recommend a Cleric multiclass feat and the PP...crap I'm forgetting the name, but I think it's Divine Oracle. The U12 is basically "target an enemy, next hit on it is a crit". Barb runs up, uses a Rage Daily, crit gives him an extra BMA, pops an AP, use Rage Strike...that should drop any creature of around your level (even most Elites), and of course, if it does, the Barb may now charge a second enemy...

Sorry for the tangent. I'm actually not familiar with the elementalist at all, the Elemental book was one of the 3 books for 4e I never picked up (Feywild and Astral Sea being the other 2), so I'm not familiar enough with the class features to know where a Warlord would help them.

As far as your presence choice, I guess I only recommend against Bravura. That requires a lot of DM buy-in to get any use out of it. I've heard of DMs who get so focused on getting into the tactical combat of 4e that every braindead zombie gets played like a Sun Tzu disciple, in which case, they would never take the proffered attack. I was also thoroughly unimpressed by insightful, but if Keledrath is right, there were powers with Insightful riders that made it worthwhile. Mind you, Tactical, Resourceful, and Inspiring had good riders, too...

[Vhaidara]

Warlords are all about (both mechanically and thematically) learning how to find optimal combinations of riders and bonuses to maximize the party's DPR. As Keledrath alluded to, it sometimes depends on your party's composition. If you had a Rageblood Barbarian Supercharger, for example, I'd recommend a Cleric multiclass feat and the PP...crap I'm forgetting the name, but I think it's Divine Oracle. The U12 is basically "target an enemy, next hit on it is a crit". Barb runs up, uses a Rage Daily, crit gives him an extra BMA, pops an AP, use Rage Strike...that should drop any creature of around your level (even most Elites)

Combo doesn't actually work, better would probably be charge (they are a charge build) into AP Storm of Blades. That will get more damage than spending 2 dailies (rage and Rage Strike) for less resources spent.
Also, it's the divine oracle F11, as a standard action power.

the Barb may now charge a second enemy...

And, sadly, they can't, because Swift Charge is a Free Action Attack and they already took one from Rampage on the crit. Barbarian has a few issues with the Free Action Attack Limit.

[hammerspace]

many of the riders of resourcefull presence do require charisma.

[hammerspace]

the elementalist in my party works quite simple:
level 5: all attacks get +con+2 damage
at wills:
RBA elemental bolt 1d12+cha (target get vulnerable 3 against elementalist attacks
static charge close blast 3 enemy only 1d8 to targets hit and cha damage 1 enemy adjacent to a hit target.

encounter powers:
elemental escalation(x2): add +1d10 damage and 1 target to an at will
promise of storm(genasi racial power) minor action: add 1d8 damage to all lightning and thunder attacks until end of next turn
sudden slime(theme power)minor action: close burst 1 range 10: slow and some damage(lightning because of a lightning weapon)

feats: mark of storm,world serpent's grasp

[hammerspace]

btw how good is 9th legion student?
1 handed pick or spear+ shield strike:use direct the strike instead of a MBA when making an opportunity attack.

I am not sure sure about the weapon restriction but allowing the elementalist to blow up anyone triggering an opportunity attack from me seems nice.

[Vhaidara]

many of the riders of resourcefull presence do require charisma.

so, here's the thing with warlords: you don't HAVE to take powers with riders that match your presence. Often some of the best powers don't have any riders. My high paragon warlord had...Vengeance is Mine, Death From Two Sides, and Hail of Steel as encounters. Powerful Warning is also excellent, even without the Insightful rider (it can still make things miss, and it's still an interrupt speed attack grant). I think the only resourceful rider I had was Adaptive Stratagem, which in my case gave +6 to damage/+2 to saves, which is a pretty strong use of a minor action.

Something to remember about Direct the Strike is that it is a ranged attack, so if there are any other enemies engaged with you (not uncommon for a warlord) you will also provoke OAs by using it.

[hammerspace]

ah, that's something one can easilly overlook.


any good advice about which feats are interesting?

this is what I have so far:
at wills: direct the strike, intuitive strike
encounter: vengeance is mine, devastating offense
daily:lead the attack,stand the fallen.

and I am also still looking for a good theme.
race human+ pack outcast for the combat advantage
or genasi plaguesoul with sickening plague to give adjacent enemies -2 to all defenses for 1 turn

[RedMage125]

Combo doesn't actually work, better would probably be charge (they are a charge build) into AP Storm of Blades. That will get more damage than spending 2 dailies (rage and Rage Strike) for less resources spent.
Also, it's the divine oracle F11, as a standard action power.

And, sadly, they can't, because Swift Charge is a Free Action Attack and they already took one from Rampage on the crit. Barbarian has a few issues with the Free Action Attack Limit.

Ummm...I may have missed the very last round of errata (haven't played 4e since early 2014), but since when are Free actions limited? They are, by definition, FREE. You get one Standard, Move, Minor per turn, one Immediate until your next turn starts, and any number of Free actions. I've never heard anything about a limit on free actions.

I used this combo myself (Gnoll Rageblood Barbarian, so I got a Swift Bite in there when it was bloodied, too) shortly after PHB2 came out.

Besides, even if there were a limit on "free action attacks", those things are both conditional, which requires very Specific criteria to be met. And Specific > General. Just like how using the Charge action normally ends your turn, but you can spend an AP after the charge to do something else, and a RB Barb can still do Swift Charge if he drops a foe, even if he charged earlier that round. Both of those were explicitly covered in FAQs from the designers.

[Vhaidara]

Here's my old Resourceful Warlord

She was generally built on the idea of taking "I smack them then you smack them" powers.

[Vhaidara]

Besides, even if there were a limit on "free action attacks", those things are both conditional, which requires very Specific criteria to be met. And Specific > General. Just like how using the Charge action normally ends your turn, but you can spend an AP after the charge to do something else, and a RB Barb can still do Swift Charge if he drops a foe, even if he charged earlier that round. Both of those were explicitly covered in FAQs from the designers.

Rules Compendium 194. It's specifically a limit on free action attacks, not all free actions. And it is only to specifically making an attack as a free action, so for example a warlord can use Knight's Move to give the rogue a free action Move Action that they can downgrade to a Mior action attack, and because it wasn't "make an attack as a free action" it doesn't count against it. And yes, you can take free actions after charging, spending an AP is a free action.

[hammerspace]

Here's my old Resourceful Warlord

She was generally built on the idea of taking "I smack them then you smack them" powers.

ah thanks, it's always nice to see some examples of how other people do things
oh battle champion looks also like a nice paragon path, first time that I see a paragon path with an AP feature that triggers on allies using their AP.
To bad it only covers the first attack, but 2 rolls and crit on 19 and 20 is nice. especially with the resourcefull presence buff

[hammerspace]

btw what are the opinions about battleffront leader vs combat leader?

[tiornys]

btw what are the opinions about battleffront leader vs combat leader?

Battlefront Leader is comparable in heroic tier and much, much worse from paragon tier forward. +2 to party Initiative is a nice little advantage at the start of battle. Shifting 1 party member usually isn't quite as valuable (although situationally it can be more valuable), but you also get slightly better personal defenses to help compensate.

At paragon tier, you can improve either feature with a feat. Battlefront Leader's upgrade lets you shift 2 people instead of just 1. Which is generally less powerful than getting to shift 1 character (albeit can situationally be better). Combat Leader's upgrade changes the +2 into (typically) +5 (soon to be +6, and continuing to get better), assuming you're investing heavily into your secondary stat like most good Warlords should. In other words, Combat Leader gives you access to a feat that is basically Improved Initiative on the entire party and that stacks with actual Improved Initiative. It's frankly among the strongest feats in the game.

[hammerspace]

ok imaginative reaction is heroic and seems quite nice -4 intiative to give party member +int and another party member +cha initiative, that one seems quite nice
and +int (or cha) at paragon for initiative seems also quite nice




but getting heavy shield and for 1 feat scale+ healing surge seems also nice

[RedMage125]

Rules Compendium 194. It's specifically a limit on free action attacks, not all free actions. And it is only to specifically making an attack as a free action, so for example a warlord can use Knight's Move to give the rogue a free action Move Action that they can downgrade to a Mior action attack, and because it wasn't "make an attack as a free action" it doesn't count against it. And yes, you can take free actions after charging, spending an AP is a free action.

So is it one Free Action Attack per Round or per Turn? I know Rampage was limited to 1/Round, but Swift Charge was a Free Action charge, with a different qualifying condition. IMO, that's a case of Specific > General, and both should be useable with no problem.

And so, yeah, I pulled that off before that rule was even a thing, I guess, since the RC was released as a part of the Essentials package, which was a year after the PHB3, and I played that Barb when the PHB2 came out.

Spoiler: blocked for relevance to the topic

Show

And also, you mentioned blowing 2 Dailies before with that combo. To be fair, we knew it was the BBEG, and I had 2 Dailies left. The end result was that I dropped an Elite (the Troll King) in one round with that (I think maybe the wizard hit him with a scorching blast right before, but he was at near full health). So it was White Phoenix Rage (auto-crit from the Oracle power), Rampage, Swift Bite (Paragon Gnoll feat, bite attack when target is bloodied), AP to then burn my last rage for a Rage Strike, dropped him, Swift Charge. All in all a very good round.

[Vhaidara]

ok imaginative reaction is heroic and seems quite nice -4 intiative to give party member +int and another party member +cha initiative, that one seems quite nice
and +int (or cha) at paragon for initiative seems also quite nice




but getting heavy shield and for 1 feat scale+ healing surge seems also nice

So, the thing with being Int secondary is that Hide is probably going to be better for you than scale. And, more specifically (if you look at my feats) you can go for Ringmail, which has the same stats as Hide but also lets you get Chain enchantments, namely Tactician's, which raises your int mod by 1 for all class related purposes that aren't attack rolls. So your Combat Commander (the +Int to initiative), your Imaginative Reaction, your Commander's Strike, your Resourceful Presence, all of it.

[hammerspace]

i think scale scales slightly better then hide+2nd stat.

if you start with 16 int with +2 racial=18, you'll get int 20 on level 8 and 22 on level 14.
+2 scale gives a 8+2 AC = 10AC
+2 hide gives Int+3+2AC (int 4/5)= 9/10AC
+3 scale give 9+3AC= 12AC
+3 hide give int+3+3AC(int 5/6)= 11/12AC

so scale is slighly better, but hide gives better movement.

[tiornys]

It's not that Scale scales better than Hide, but rather that Scale gets all of its scaling from enhancement/masterwork while Hide splits its scaling between enhancement/masterwork and boosts to Dex/Int. Because of that last point, Hide can actually scale 1 point better at Epic tier if you take one of the many Epic Destinies that boosts your Dex/Int.

Base Scale: 7
Scale +1: 7+1=8
Drakescale +2: 8+2=10
Wyvernscale +3: 9+3=12
Wyrmscale +4: 10+4=14
Nagascale +5: 11+5=16
Elderscale +6: 13+6=19

Base Hide (18 Dex/Int): 3+4=7
Hide +1 (18-19 Dex/Int): 3+1+4=8
Hide +2 pre L8 (19 Dex/Int): 3+2+4=9
Hide +2 post L8 (20 Dex/Int): 3+2+5=10
Hide +3 pre L14 (20-21 Dex/Int): 3+3+5=11
Hide +3 post L14 (22 Dex/Int): 3+3+6=12
Darkhide +4 (22-23 Dex/Int): 4+4+6=14
Darkhide +5 pre-L21 (23 Dex/Int): 4+5+6=15
Darkhide +5 post-L21 (24-26 Dex/Int): 4+5+(7 or 8)=16-17 (depends on Epic Destiny)
Elderhide +6 pre-L28 (25-27 Dex/Int): 5+6+(7or8)=18-19
Elderhide +6 post-L28 (26-28 Dex/Int): 5+6+(8or9)=19-20

So Hide is always comparable to Scale in AC assuming a starting 18 Dex/Int and dedicated boosting, better if you also boost with an Epic Destiny, but can be slightly ahead or behind along the way depending on timing of magic armor acquisition.

[Vhaidara]

In addition to the higher movement, there's an item called the Elven Chain shirt that occurs at levels 9/19/29 that gives a +1/2/3 item bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor. So if you factor that in then hide comes even and eventually pulls ahead, even without a 20 Int or a +2 Int ED