What's Going To Kill Belkar?

[hroþila]

I would like to add that if trying matters, then Belkar has been actively trying to resist change because it challenged his self-image as a streetwise, devil-may-care psychopath. That might change now that he's done some hardcore introspection, but up to this point he's been trying to not be too non-Evil.

[Rrmcklin]

Also Good, and perhaps even Neutral, has higher standards than Evil. You can be "good" your whole life but if you decide to commit one rape or murder just for funzies I doubt any of the Good afterlives are letting you in. Meanwhile, I very much doubt that any of the Evil ones are going to go "Hmm, this guy spent his entire life being a hedonistic psychopath, but he did kind of chill out at the end and help save the world (to save himself) so he doesn't fit in here."

[KorvinStarmast]

Also Good, and perhaps even Neutral, has higher standards than evil. You can be "good" your whole life but if you decide to commit one rape or murder just for funzies I doubt any of the Good afterlives are letting you in. Meanwhile, I very much doubt they Evil ones are going "Hmm, this guy spent his entire life being a hedonistic psychopath, but he did kind of chill out at the end and help save the world (to save himself) so he doesn't fit in here."

There is that; Good seems to do a better job of keeping members out of its club.

[Dr.Zero]

Also Good, and perhaps even Neutral, has higher standards than Evil. You can be "good" your whole life but if you decide to commit one rape or murder just for funzies I doubt any of the Good afterlives are letting you in. Meanwhile, I very much doubt that any of the Evil ones are going to go "Hmm, this guy spent his entire life being a hedonistic psychopath, but he did kind of chill out at the end and help save the world (to save himself) so he doesn't fit in here."

It depends, really.
Like, you've been Good your whole life, then you go mad and kill innocent people get caught in your roaring rampage of revenge, mostly you'll be considered Evil, uninterested to living beings and so on.

You've been a jerkass your whole life, but then you spend the last years being charitable, then maybe...

Or you repent at the last moment and then... (real life myth could be shown, if not for forum rules).

On the other hand, you can repent and punish yourself with death penalty for your sin, but still... (real life myth, related to the one before, could be shown, if not for forum rules).

It seems to be more related to PR than to something that can easily been expressed via a rule or a math formula.

Everytingh else notwithstanding, I don't know why people think Evil should be less nitpicking than Good, in a D&D setting.
That is not RL religion, where Hell is the trash bin of Heaven: in D&D all the alignments have the same importance and, in OOTS, the same final result: merging with the plane/being used as battery by some God.

Now, starting with the fact that every God like souls, since they are energy/food, the only reason to kick some soul away is that eating/merging a soul of a different alignment is going to damage the God/Plane.

For the Good plane, merging with something not purely Good might be damaging.
But symmetrically that stands true even for an Evil plane merging with something not purely Evil.

Edit: otoh, Hel seems to have no problem in using souls which should belong to different planes. Which both proves the point about being interested in souls for power and apparently disproves the point about souls of a different alignment damaging the God/plane. So, meh.

[RatElemental]

I dunno, Hel doesn't seem to be doing too good. Mentally or 'physically.'

[Rrmcklin]

It depends, really.
Like, you've been Good your whole life, then you go mad and kill innocent people get caught in your roaring rampage of revenge, mostly you'll be considered Evil, uninterested to living beings and so on.

You've been a jerkass your whole life, but then you spend the last years being charitable, then maybe...

Or you repent at the last moment and then... (real life myth could be shown, if not for forum rules).

On the other hand, you can repent and punish yourself with death penalty for your sin, but still... (real life myth, related to the one before, could be shown, if not for forum rules).

It seems to be more related to PR than to something that can easily been expressed via a rule or a math formula.

Everytingh else notwithstanding, I don't know why people think Evil should be less nitpicking than Good, in a D&D setting.
That is not RL religion, where Hell is the trash bin of Heaven: in D&D all the alignments have the same importance and, in OOTS, the same final result: merging with the plane/being used as battery by some God.

Now, starting with the fact that every God like souls, since they are energy/food, the only reason to kick some soul away is that eating/merging a soul of a different alignment is going to damage the God/Plane.

For the Good plane, merging with something not purely Good might be damaging.
But symmetrically that stands true even for an Evil plane merging with something not purely Evil.

Edit: otoh, Hel seems to have no problem in using souls which should belong to different planes. Which both proves the point about being interested in souls for power and apparently disproves the point about souls of a different alignment damaging the God/plane. So, meh.

People assume that Evil is lesspicky because than Good because Good, by definition, holds itself to a higher standard than Evil. At the very least, we know that to be a fact in this setting given how Roy's interview went.

I'm not sure why you're talking as if anyone has tried to quantify things via math formula.

And you still didn't address either the points of 1) no, Belkar has not been actively trying to change and 2) saving the world is not inherently a good thing when it's primarily fueled by self-interest.

[hroþila]

saving the world is not inherently a good thing when it's primarily fueled by self-interest.

I had written a longish reply, but before I post it I'd like to ask: what do you mean exactly by "fueled by self-interest"?

[Dr.Zero]

I dunno, Hel doesn't seem to be doing too good. Mentally or 'physically.'

I think that this is more because the souls are scarce, but nonetheless you are not the first one to raise this point, it happened even in a related thread I opened about this subject. I've never read it that way, but if that too influences badly her diet is open to debate, at this point.

People assume that Evil is lesspicky because than Good because Good, by definition, holds itself to a higher standard than Evil.

I don't know if you are joking or being serious, so I'll assume something in the middle pointing out that this argument makes as much sense as saying that Evil must select only souls of short people, because everyone knows they are on the lower planes. (Or they work on lower instincts, or whatever kind of joke you might like).

Everything else is an assumption from the "Hell=trash bin of Heaven" paradigm, so Heaven being restrictive (fine) and Hell being not, because Hell must accept everything (totally to prove and which shouldn't be -necessarily- true for D&D). Again: this is not RL religion, it's D&D religion.

Of course, the confusion is understandable, because if one reads the descriptions of the afterlives, everything seems like a punishment, but the Good one, which fits well with our common RL religion assumptions.
But theoretically every single afterlife should fit its souls.
In that sense the reaction of Jirix about the happiness and the excitement of joining TDO's army in its never ending, no-cease-fire battles shown here is probably more close to the point that the "dear God, an infinite battles, that is the punishment and retribution for a life of violence!" one might get reading the description of the Acheron (LE- afterlife).

At the very least, we know that to be a fact in this setting given how Roy's interview went.

Uhm. No. We know for a fact Good is selective. Not that Evil is not.

I'm not sure why you're talking as if anyone has tried to quantify things via math formula.



And you still didn't address either the points of 1) no, Belkar has not been actively trying to change and 2) saving the world is not inherently a good thing when it's primarily fueled by self-interest.

[/quote]

I didn't know I was supposed to address any point, actually.
But ok:
1) B is trying -willingly or not, as a masquerade or not- to be better than the old B, see as a very tiny example the excuses he makes to D about the palm. Or maybe not, he is not trying. In that case HE IS ALREADY better. So, since the "trying matters" is important only when one fails to reach the standard (cfr the reason why trying matters was important for Roy), if he has reached the standard without even trying, we're fine, I'd say.

2) Huh? I don't think B has ever been show to care about his well being related to the world destruction, no more than R, Ha, E or anyone else, at least. Is there a specific page where he -specifically- is all scared about the world ending? Or where he tries to find an alternative between a hard battle against the lich and the world ending, like Hy does with the plane shift?
He has as much self interest as any other member of the gang there, and till now the only reasons that seem to move him are... well, at the start easy violence and loot, then some coercion (the curse), then just the teamwork (refusing the Loki's cleric job offer when the curse had been removed) and so on...

[Peelee]

I had written a longish reply, but before I post it I'd like to ask: what do you mean exactly by "fueled by self-interest"?

Belkar lives in the world, and thus has a vested interest in it not ending. Belkar has also, to the best of my knowledge, never actually cared about saving anyone else in the world, or saving the world for other people, or, amusingly enough given said self-interest in the world not ending, expressed any interest saving the world at all; he's more or less along for the ride.

If you jumped in your car and drove to save the Earthican President from Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8, then you would be trying to save him. If I was in the car because I wanted to get out of the house that day, then I wouldn't really be trying to save him by any stretch of the imagination, even if I chipped in for gas at some point during the trip.

[hroþila]

Belkar lives in the world, and thus has a vested interest in it not ending. Belkar has also, to the best of my knowledge, never actually cared about saving anyone else in the world, or saving the world for other people, or, amusingly enough given said self-interest in the world not ending, expressed any interest saving the world at all; he's more or less along for the ride.

If you jumped in your car and drove to save the Earthican President from Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8, then you would be trying to save him. If I was in the car because I wanted to get out of the house that day, then I wouldn't really be trying to save him by any stretch of the imagination, even if I chipped in for gas at some point during the trip.

I agree with all of this, I was asking because sometimes people suggest that Belkar's actions can't be Good because of the self-preservation factor, but it's more that he's just doing whatever the Order is doing, as you say.

[Rrmcklin]

I agree with all of this, I was asking because sometimes people suggest that Belkar's actions can't be Good because of the self-preservation factor, but it's more that he's just doing whatever the Order is doing, as you say.

My point was Peelee's, and I'll note that I agree with you that self-preservation involved doesn't preclude an action from being good like some other people have tried to argue. It's just that Belkar has never expressed any such good motivations and, even now, it seems unlikely that he actually would.