So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

[Sapphire Guard]

I think the bitter division is just that the fandom seem to be more evenly split than ever before. Also, there's a fair amount of 'you like/dislike these films, therefore you are part of this group' type of conversations, which never go anywhere good.

I genuinely do think TLJ gets more criticised than it deserves (aside from all the more insane namecalling and abuse, which is a given), because it got boxed in by a lot of TFA's decisions.

It made the mistake of giving the fanbase hard numbers, because this is the kind of fanbase that does the maths.

Trying to figure out SW Logistics has always been a fraught exercise. Even as a tyke my issues with the logistics, and especially the logistics of time and space (and to an extent atmosphere and gravity inside an asteroid worm) were why I couldn't enjoy ESB for the longest time and still can't put it as a better movie than the others like many do.

I don't mean real world logistics, I mean the rules of the galaxy given to us. You want to say 'building a death star secretly is really difficult?' Fine, but when an even bigger project happens later in total secrecy I have some questions.

Spoiler: Clone Wars/Rebels

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Clone Wars and Rebels have their strong points and their weak points.I have a huge problem with Yoda saying 'In out arrogance we did swiftly join the war', as that's not at all what happened. In terms of Anakin's character, it's much easier to develop a character in 40 hours than in 4, but I came out of TCW wondering how in hell no one had yet picked up on his issues, given all the foreshadowing, whereas it felt understandable in the PT.

[Peelee]

I genuinely do think TLJ gets more criticised than it deserves (aside from all the more insane namecalling and abuse, which is a given), because it got boxed in by a lot of TFA's decisions.

While I agree with you on the first part, I'm not so sure most of its flaws were due to being boxed in by TFA. TFA was an ANH rehash, but it had the same effect on the sequel as ANH did; there was actually a whole lot of freedom for the sequel. The New Republic's government is wiped out, but that doesn't mean that the Resistance is shattered; they could have used that cataclysm as a rallying point for others to back the Resistance and try to buck the First Order (especially since the Galactic Empire's fall, despite being significantly more powerful than the First Order, would still be fresh in their history). They could have had both the Resistance and the First Order be significantly strained of resources and competing to get the upper hand against each other. They could have some third faction that is suddenly the strongest power in the galaxy (such as Black Sun or the Nar Shaddaa-made cheap knock-off Red Dawn), which has no idea how to deal with that and must now deal with both the Resistance and the First Order. They could have had a time jump of unknown duration to allow for new start points for the Resistance and First Order to be in, much like ESB did.

Instead, TLJ opted to not have a time jump, to give the First Order hyperspace-tracking technology, to make the entire movie an incredibly dull chase scene, and to have the Resistance reduced to a handful of people while firmly establishing the First Order at the height of their power. None of those were dictated by the groundwork that TFA built, those were all wholly independent decisions.

[Narkis]

It's the third time in this thread where I start writing a response, leave the tab open, and by the time I come back Peelee had already written what I wanted to say, only more concisely. This is uncanny.

[Fyraltari]

Instead, TLJ opted to not have a time jump, to give the First Order hyperspace-tracking technology, to make the entire movie an incredibly dull chase scene, and to have the Resistance reduced to a handful of people while firmly establishing the First Order at the height of their power. None of those were dictated by the groundwork that TFA built, those were all wholly independent decisions.

While I agree that TLJ had a considerable lot of options, TFA, not TLJ, established hyperspace tracking technology, it's what gets the climax rolling. However, it does so in a throwaway line which makes it easy to miss.

[Peelee]

It's the third time in this thread where I start writing a response, leave the tab open, and by the time I come back Peelee had already written what I wanted to say, only more concisely. This is uncanny.

That's the first time I've heard my writing style described as concise.

That said, I aim to please! (and I'm also interested in the other two times)

While I agree that TLJ had a considerable lot of options, TFA, not TLJ, established hyperspace tracking technology, it's what gets the climax rolling. However, it does so in a throwaway line which makes it easy to miss.

As a standalone line, I'd say they could have possibly tracked that ship through other means; with TLJ and the lack of timeskip, hyperspace tracking is the obvious choice for how they accomplished it, but I'd argue that it wasn't definitively hyperspace tracking until TLJ used it.

And even if I'm wrong and that totally was intended as hyperspace tracking, well, that's just one more thing Abrams decided to toss in to an established franchise that fundamentally changes how that universe works. Thanks, Abrams, glad doing that to Star Trek wasn't quite enough for ya.

[Fyraltari]

As a standalone line, I'd say they could have possibly tracked that ship through other means; with TLJ and the lack of timeskip, hyperspace tracking is the obvious choice for how they accomplished it, but I'd argue that it wasn't definitively hyperspace tracking until TLJ used it.

And even if I'm wrong and that totally was intended as hyperspace tracking, well, that's just one more thing Abrams decided to toss in to an established franchise that fundamentally changes how that universe works. Thanks, Abrams, glad doing that to Star Trek wasn't quite enough for ya.

I'm not really sure how being able to track someone through hyperspace "fundametally changes Star Wars how Star Wars works" (well except for the fact that it acknowledges technological innovation is a thing). It's only a big deal if the writer makes it so and there is absolutely nothing stopping any SW writers to add hyperspace tracker jamming devices to the universe as well. In fact that's the most probable outcome.

An example of something that "fundamentally changes how Star Wars works" would be

Spoiler: Rebels, season 4

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Introducing a mystical dimension that allows for teleportation and time-travelling

And I still don't think that was a bad thing either.

EDIT:
Also, what other means do you have in mind? Unlike ANH the First order didn't have access to these ships to put a tracking device in them.

[Morgana]

This is the kind of fanbase that does the math while completely ignoring in-universe consistency(at least when it suits them that is). I mean, the whole hyperspace ramming criticism thing completely ignores a lot of previously stated things in universe, such as a throaway line in the OT that tells the danger of ramming into things at hyperspace.

Plus I think it's kinda just common sense that if ships ramming into each other is a danger, one ramming right after coming out of hyperspace would also be dangerous? Especially considering it was at a close range, it was a big ship and probably had a very powerful engine

[Keltest]

This is the kind of fanbase that does the math while completely ignoring in-universe consistency(at least when it suits them that is). I mean, the whole hyperspace ramming criticism thing completely ignores a lot of previously stated things in universe, such as a throaway line in the OT that tells the danger of ramming into things at hyperspace.

Plus I think it's kinda just common sense that if ships ramming into each other is a danger, one ramming right after coming out of hyperspace would also be dangerous? Especially considering it was at a close range, it was a big ship and probably had a very powerful engine

Yeah. Its funny how I never saw anybody complaining about the near-absence of ships ramming other ships at sublight speeds being deployed as deliberate tactics.

[Peelee]

I'm not really sure how being able to track someone through hyperspace "fundametally changes Star Wars how Star Wars works" (well except for the fact that it acknowledges technological innovation is a thing).

Most of the movies couldn't have happened, for one; the Falcon wouldn't have been able to escape Tatooine, the Falcon wouldn't have been able to escape the Bespin, the entire Rebellion wouldn't have been able to escape Hoth, the Nubian ship wouldn't have been able to escape Naboo... there are a lot of escapes via hyperspace, really.

An example of something that "fundamentally changes how Star Wars works" would be

Spoiler: Rebels, season 4

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Introducing a mystical dimension that allows for teleportation and time-travelling

And I still don't think that was a bad thing either.

I have my share of issues with Rebels as well, despite me overall enjoyment of it. They also had

Spoiler:

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HELICOPTER LIGHTSABERS! I MEAN C'MON!

, which I will openly claim as worse than anything the Sequel Trilogy has done.

EDIT:
Also, what other means do you have in mind? Unlike ANH the First order didn't have access to these ships to put a tracking device in them.

The Legends books had several instances of calculating trajectories, which shows a vector but not an endpoint and can be foiled by changing routes after the initial jump. Just as an example.

This is the kind of fanbase that does the math while completely ignoring in-universe consistency(at least when it suits them that is). I mean, the whole hyperspace ramming criticism thing completely ignores a lot of previously stated things in universe, such as a throaway line in the OT that tells the danger of ramming into things at hyperspace.

Danger to the ship plowing through a thing, not to the thing itself, to be fair. Heck, in the Rebellion's most desperate hour, literally seconds away from having their hidden base with all of their highest-ranking members destroyed, nobody even thinks of sending a hyperspace vehicle into the Death Star.

[Morgana]

The hyperdrive ramming happened during a slow speed persuit between the 2 biggest and most advanced ships both sides had, and decades after the death star was destroyed, is safe to say that any of those multiple different variables could have resulted in the tactic being able to be employed now rather than something that is wieldly used.

Also come on, Star Wars has always been about introducing things that wildly changed things, like the Thrawn trilogy introducing small lizards that NULLIFIED THE FORCE. Not to mention all of the new powers force users are constantly getting, and the bunch of new technologies introduced in newer Star Wars things, hell I'd say the same can be said about pretty much every long lasting franchise.

[Rodin]

Danger to the ship plowing through a thing, not to the thing itself, to be fair. Heck, in the Rebellion's most desperate hour, literally seconds away from having their hidden base with all of their highest-ranking members destroyed, nobody even thinks of sending a hyperspace vehicle into the Death Star.

That, at least, is easy to explain away. We don't see any capital ships at Yavin IV, and the Death Star is the size of a moon. Ramming any of the fighters or other small ships into the Death Star would have resulted in a *SPLAT* rather than any significant damage to the Death Star. The only way Luke was able to destroy it was to set off a runaway reaction within the core that did far more damage than a small craft impacting on the heavily armored surface would.

Of course, there's plenty of other points where it's harder to explain (like the second Death Star battle).

[Peelee]

The hyperdrive ramming happened during a slow speed persuit between the 2 biggest and most advanced ships both sides had, and decades after the death star was destroyed, is safe to say that any of those multiple different variables could have resulted in the tactic being able to be employed now rather than something that is wieldly used.

That, at least, is easy to explain away. We don't see any capital ships at Yavin IV, and the Death Star is the size of a moon. Ramming any of the fighters or other small ships into the Death Star would have resulted in a *SPLAT* rather than any significant damage to the Death Star. The only way Luke was able to destroy it was to set off a runaway reaction within the core that did far more damage than a small craft impacting on the heavily armored surface would.

Of course, there's plenty of other points where it's harder to explain (like the second Death Star battle).

Spoiler: Size matters not, someone once said.

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[Morgana]

Yeah, but we can't really apply real world physics in a world where there's sound and explosions in space

[Keltest]

Spoiler: Size matters not, someone once said.

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Lightspeed calculations take time. Admittedly part of that is the aforementioned attempts to avoid crashing into supernovas and whatnot, but its definitely more complicated than just pressing the "go fast" button. And unless they smacked directly into the laser, it would almost certainly not do more than inconvenience the Death Star.

[Peelee]

Yeah, but we can't really apply real world physics in a world where there's sound and explosions in space

If they introduce "fast thing adds power," I can certainly point out what logically follows. Im not saying an X-Wing would destroy the Death Star, but I am saying it wouldn't go *splat* and could at least knock the superlaser out of commission.

Lightspeed calculations take time. Admittedly part of that is the aforementioned attempts to avoid crashing into supernovas and whatnot, but its definitely more complicated than just pressing the "go fast" button.

No, TLJ pretty much established it as a "go fast" button when Holdo used it as a last-second tactic.

[Sapphire Guard]

TFA ends halfway through a scene, forcing TLJ to finish it, which prevents any real time lapse between films, which severely limits the plots that can be used.

Said scene also cranks up the hype on Luke Skywalker's return to unmeetable levels, forcing them to dodge the question.

TFA also ends with the leads split up, preventing their dynamic from advancing a la ANH to ESB. Finn is unconscious, so he can't do anything between films, and Rey is isolated on Atch-To. In theory you could skip ahead to Rey six months into training, but most audiences want to see the end of the cliffhanger, why and how Luke reacts to this newcomer, etc.

Kylo has been humiliatingly defeated, they need to rebuild him as a threat, which means he has to take a big scalp, the only options being Snoke and Luke.

The FO have lost their trumpcard after pissing off the entire galaxy. Anything they do in this period can have nothing to do with Rey and Finn, as they're both out of the loop, so Poe has to carry the main plot by himself.

I could buy them desperately conquering worlds before the inevitable counterattack, but that would leave Finn and Rey entirely sidelined by the plot between films.

Re hyperspace ramming, we accepted this wasn't possible since it hadn't been done. Now that it is, every 'big dangerous ship' is very vulnerable, so questions arise like :In Rogue One, when that Admiral is willing to order Suicide ramming anyway, why not do it at lightspeed and take a big chunk of the death Star?' It's very difficult to imagine someone like General Grievous not sacrificing a ship full of mass produced droids to take down an enemy fleet.

Hyperspace tracking is fine in universe, it just means that all future writers have to answer the question 'why weren't they tracked', whenever someone escapes a pursuer.

[Keltest]

If they introduce "fast thing adds power," I can certainly point out what logically follows. Im not saying an X-Wing would destroy the Death Star, but I am saying it wouldn't go *splat* and could at least knock the superlaser out of commission.


No, TLJ pretty much established it as a "go fast" button when Holdo used it as a last-second tactic.

The ship had to turn around first. If they had been getting shot at, it would have been destroyed, but that's definitely enough time to plug in a hyperspace destination.

[Morgana]

"Fast things add power" is very far from the conclusion that they add enough power to the point where a small ship could cause significant damage to a moon, we can't deduce that unless Star Wars gives us an example of something to this degree happening or straight up gives us an equation on how this would work consistent to their physics. Also the whole idea of "fast things add power" isn't even a sequel thing, and has been displayed time and time again in multiple instances of the franchise.

[Peelee]

TFA ends halfway through a scene, forcing TLJ to finish it, which prevents any real time lapse between films, which severely limits the plots that can be used.

There's no indication Rey found Luke at the same time as everything else was happening.

The ship had to turn around first. If they had been getting shot at, it would have been destroyed, but that's definitely enough time to plug in a hyperspace destination.

Rogue One also establishes it as a "go fast" button that explicitly does not need a destination or calculation.

[Keltest]

Rogue One also establishes it as a "go fast" button that explicitly does not need a destination or calculation.

Its been a bit, but wasn't the unusual part that they did it in atmosphere, and not that it was done quickly?

[Peelee]

Its been a bit, but wasn't the unusual part that they did it in atmosphere, and not that it was done quickly?

The gravity well not being an issue bothered me a bit, but K2 explicitly says they don't have a calculation and is ordered to jump anyway.

[Dienekes]

While I agree with you on the first part, I'm not so sure most of its flaws were due to being boxed in by TFA. TFA was an ANH rehash, but it had the same effect on the sequel as ANH did; there was actually a whole lot of freedom for the sequel. The New Republic's government is wiped out, but that doesn't mean that the Resistance is shattered; they could have used that cataclysm as a rallying point for others to back the Resistance and try to buck the First Order (especially since the Galactic Empire's fall, despite being significantly more powerful than the First Order, would still be fresh in their history). They could have had both the Resistance and the First Order be significantly strained of resources and competing to get the upper hand against each other. They could have some third faction that is suddenly the strongest power in the galaxy (such as Black Sun or the Nar Shaddaa-made cheap knock-off Red Dawn), which has no idea how to deal with that and must now deal with both the Resistance and the First Order. They could have had a time jump of unknown duration to allow for new start points for the Resistance and First Order to be in, much like ESB did.

Instead, TLJ opted to not have a time jump, to give the First Order hyperspace-tracking technology, to make the entire movie an incredibly dull chase scene, and to have the Resistance reduced to a handful of people while firmly establishing the First Order at the height of their power. None of those were dictated by the groundwork that TFA built, those were all wholly independent decisions.

I’m a bit of two minds on this. You are right, a lot of the plot decisions could have been significantly altered, probably for the better. Anything to get rid of that bore of a casino planet.

But a lot of the problems many people point out (not specifically you of course) is that TLJ backtracked on the story of Luke and spat on the OT. Which in my mind had already happened well before in TFA. That’s the one that established Leia’s Republic was a failure. Han’s redemption from a smuggling rogue to a loyal family man got chewed up and spat out. And Luke’s new Jedi school imploded and he decided to throw a hissy fit and locked himself away on some planet and even destroyed the maps to get there so no one could enter his room, mom.

And honestly, I think TLJ did a decent job addressing that stuff. The Resistance is shattered because the Republic is destroyed. Any potential ally they may have had should now be on the verge of wetting themselves, especially since the Starkiller base destroyed several planets implied to be the majority of the Republic fleet. Why all of that seemed to be in the same solar system as Starkiller base and each other is anyone’s guess. But apparently they were. Luke is just as depressed and useless as TFA implied he’d be.

That all makes sense to me. And unfortunately for the time jump idea, TFA left us with several dangling plot threads that had to be addressed right away. Namely what’s up with Luke, and what’s happening to the useless stormtrooper guy.

Now they could have wrapped that up and then jumped ahead, but that would really mess with the flow of the story. Mid-movie time jumps are difficult to pull off effectively. Not impossible by any stretch, but hard, especially when trying to make a fast paced action adventure. And I think the information they’d have to impart about being Luke’s issues would be too much for a prologue.

Now again, all that said. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t change the story beats of the movie. Like not dramatically showing that suicide runs work, before having your final message being about not going on suicide runs. And if you’re going to have petulant manchild be your top villain, go all out and make him full Joffrey. Because as is, Ben isn’t smart enough, strong enough, or crazy enough to be a credible threat. Or figure out a way to make an Ocean’s 11 run on the the enemy flagship that ends in betrayal and slaughter not boring. Like seriously, that should have been the exciting part of the movie to taper the more character driven meditative Rey/Luke segments. How’d you make that dull?

And for the sake of Yoda’s ghost, cut like a third of the jokes. A lot of them didn’t land.

[Morgana]

While I agree the cassino planet was quite boring, I do like JD as this shoulder devil for Finn, trying to push this nihilistic idea that there's no point fighting for anything for anything as all sides are equally bad so you might as well not get involved at all. Although it probably could have been executed better, this is a good way to have the character evolve from a relunctant hero that doesn't want to risk his own skin to becoming "rebel scum" as he later puts it. For all the talks of Poe being this generations Solo, I think Finn fits that role much better(which is sorta supported by him apparently being a smuggler in early drafts), if anything Poe is much more like Leia, due to his idealism and actually being the one that kickstarted the trilogy by sending a message through a droid(there's also a scene of both characters talking, and they're at one point interrupted by someone walking by, which is shot in a way that is eerly similar to Han and Leia's conversation where the same thing happened.

[Peelee]

g that stuff. The Resistance is shattered because the Republic is destroyed. Any potential ally they may have had should now be on the verge of wetting themselves, especially since the Starkiller base destroyed several planets implied to be the majority of the Republic fleet. Why all of that seemed to be in the same solar system as Starkiller base and each other is anyone’s guess. But apparently they were.

Canonocally different systems entirely, the destructive beams just traveled through hyperspace and could be seen on entirely other planets (also in canonocally different systems) because... Well, I can't remember what Abrams gave as the reason, but the short version was because Abrams liked it so **** logic.

[Dienekes]

Canonocally different systems entirely, the destructive beams just traveled through hyperspace and could be seen on entirely other planets (also in canonocally different systems) because... Well, I can't remember what Abrams gave as the reason, but the short version was because Abrams liked it so **** logic.

Don't care about the out of the movie reasoning. If it's not in the movie it does not count. The movie shows the heroes see several planets blow up instantly. That's only possible if they're all in the same solar system, so that's what I'm going with.

That comes across as harsher than intended. But really, all I mean is that section of the movie made me sit up in my chair and go “what, that’s insane and dumb.” And no matter how good an explanation the creators give after the fact, I was taken out of the viewing experience to question the logic of the movie. And that’s just bad writing.

[Morgana]

There is actually an explanation of why their entire fleet was there, and that was because the republic couldn't have an active military force spread out, as that was against treaties they made that prohibited interferance in other systems. And while I'm usually against explaining stuff with side material, in this case this is something that's just really not that important to the story, and I don't think we should waste time explaining every minute detail when the republic is not really that integral to the overall plot and this would only have been a plot hole if you started getting real nitpicky, and at point I don't think it's really worth it to undercut the imagery of that scene by having a character explain the post-war politics of the republic

[Zevox]

But a lot of the problems many people point out (not specifically you of course) is that TLJ backtracked on the story of Luke and spat on the OT. Which in my mind had already happened well before in TFA. That’s the one that established Leia’s Republic was a failure. Han’s redemption from a smuggling rogue to a loyal family man got chewed up and spat out. And Luke’s new Jedi school imploded and he decided to throw a hissy fit and locked himself away on some planet and even destroyed the maps to get there so no one could enter his room, mom.

The thing there is that TFA left it ambiguous exactly why Luke had flown off gone missing for so long. The mention of what happened to his school did raise the troubling possibility that it was what TLJ ultimately decided to make it, but didn't lock that in as what had to be the reason. His story was still salvageable after TFA - it was TLJ that decided to destroy it, and then did a very thorough job of it.

[Dienekes]

The thing there is that TFA left it ambiguous exactly why Luke had flown off gone missing for so long. The mention of what happened to his school did raise the troubling possibility that it was what TLJ ultimately decided to make it, but didn't lock that in as what had to be the reason. His story was still salvageable after TFA - it was TLJ that decided to destroy it, and then did a very thorough job of it.

For you maybe. Honestly for me the Luke bits were the only part of TLJ l though, yeah, that’s good. I liked him going through an inversion of the heroes journey that his original story was dominated by. I love that they Rashomon’d the hell out of his fall, especially how it plays with the whole “it’s true... from a certain point of view” thing that Star Wars goes for.

And Hell, choosing to die as a last minute disruption of the villain’s plans in a way to inspire the next generation of heroes? Oh yeah that’s good stuff. Coulda gone without the shoulder dusting thing though. Again, they needed to cut so many jokes in this damn movie.

But I’m willing to listen. If you can think of another reason for Luke to run off to nowhere and make a ridiculously complex way so that no one can find him, that keeps the focus of the story on the melodrama of the new main characters (meaning at least one of Rey, Ben, or -technically- Finn) I wanna hear. I legitimately love hearing stories and analyzing story structure.

[Devonix]

For you maybe. Honestly for me the Luke bits were the only part of TLJ l though, yeah, that’s good. I liked him going through an inversion of the heroes journey that his original story was dominated by. I love that they Rashomon’d the hell out of his fall, especially how it plays with the whole “it’s true... from a certain point of view” thing that Star Wars goes for.

And Hell, choosing to die as a last minute disruption of the villain’s plans in a way to inspire the next generation of heroes? Oh yeah that’s good stuff. Coulda gone without the shoulder dusting thing though. Again, they needed to cut so many jokes in this damn movie.

But I’m willing to listen. If you can think of another reason for Luke to run off to nowhere and make a ridiculously complex way so that no one can find him, that keeps the focus of the story on the melodrama of the new main characters (meaning at least one of Rey, Ben, or -technically- Finn) I wanna hear. I legitimately love hearing stories and analyzing story structure.

Luke basically going off to die somewhere and want to be forgotten fits in a lot with Starwars themes, with him being the old knight, or gunfighter giving up on heroing, and Rey the eager eyed, youngester giving him what he needs for one last ride. Those types of characters usually don't survive though.

[Morgana]

Luke going off instead of fixing his mistakes is actually very consistent, as running in shame from your responsabilities is very much a running theme of these movies lol on a series note, it didn't really spat on the OT, Luke was never a flawless character that could do no wrong, he was flawed, emotional and human, which was both a virtue and a flaw considering that was what made him triumph were the dettached original order of jedi failed, as if he actually followed Yoda's advice he would have killed Vader which would probably resulted in Palpatine killing him, and would have let his friends die which would probably result on the alliance losing the war. But at the same time him being this emotional made him prone to outbursts and was what made him almost fall to the dark side.

I find it ironic, cause what happened in TLJ was literally cause Luke tried being what the fans wanted him to be, aiming for an unachievable perfection worthy of his legendary status as a war hero, and his whole arc was literally learning to embrace his past and legend, but at the same time understanding that he's still human. Which is a running theme with Jedi, as their most constant downfall is due to trying to ignore their human side and emotions.