is OOTS #1177 the final panel of 'Utterly Dwarved'?...

[Squire Doodad]

I already have some quatloos on it, but I feel I must reiterate that I think this book will end with team evil finding the gate to act as a cliffhanger for the next one.

Alternately we might get some more info on the world in the rift.

The bet is for 5 pages of Team Evil, I think. Wouldn't work if it isn't Team Evil related though.

[RatElemental]

The bet is for 5 pages of Team Evil, I think. Wouldn't work if it isn't Team Evil related though.

I'm less confident about the 5 pages at this point, but I still think it'll end with team evil finding the gate. Just might not get those sweet, sweet fake points.

Only mentioned the world in the rift as one of the few things I can think of this whole thing ending on that would make sense beside the gate thing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Somehow, I expect something less drastic. Maybe a big extended family (with new members!) dinner at Sigdi's, before the Order rides to the Final Battle^TM.

[factotum]

I'm less confident about the 5 pages at this point, but I still think it'll end with team evil finding the gate. Just might not get those sweet, sweet fake points.

I don't think Team Evil will find the Gate until the Order get there myself, but we'll see.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Durkon getting unstoned feels like something that can happen next strip (and conveniently be a bit of a time skip). The plotline with Durkon's family can be tied up within a few strips (big family dinner sounds like a good way to do it). I am inclined to say that Hilgya won't be a major recurring character going forwards, so most of her outstanding stuff probably gets resolved in the next few strips. Establish that the Godsmoot is still ongoing, and all the high level priests have their hands tied. Then the Order re-unites with the Mechane and heads onward to the pole, cut to Team Evil, something ominous happens and boom cliffhanger. That all fits into 10 pages pretty easily.

I'm not sure if Minrah will stick around. I think it'd be pretty easy to write her out, there's a loose vampire running about after all that someone should deal with, but I could also see her staying on as a secondary character going forward into Book 7.

I've also been predicting the vampire hosts getting raised, since raising dwarves to save their souls from Hel was already a thing, and it might be nice to parallel that at the end of the book. Plus, it'd be a good moment. But I could just as easily see that not happening

I think the big question is: What is the cliffhanger going to be?

Because there has to be at least one. Maybe the chekhov's gun that is Right-Eye's daughter finally goes off. Maybe there's some big reveal about the gates or the snarl. Maybe Team Evil just finds the last gate. Up until the latest strip I was betting on Loki, Rat and Tiamat being revealed to be working with the Dark One, and the plan is much grander than previously thought, but 1177 seems to sink that theory, and honestly it probably would have felt like a repeat of the last cliffhanger.

[Quebbster]

I don't think Team Evil will find the Gate until the Order get there myself, but we'll see.

It's been established that the Gate ritual takes a few weeks to complete, so Team Evil finding the Gate would create a sense of urgency in the story, not end it. There's time for the Order to get there Before the ritual is finished.
Not saying you are wrong though. Just that I feel it would be an appropriate way to end the book. The Giant has managed to surprise me many times though...

[hroþila]

I agree with Team Evil finding the gate right at the end of this book. I've been betting on this for years so if it doesn't happen I'll be upset or something (?).

[Schroeswald]

Durkon getting unstoned feels like something that can happen next strip (and conveniently be a bit of a time skip). The plotline with Durkon's family can be tied up within a few strips (big family dinner sounds like a good way to do it). I am inclined to say that Hilgya won't be a major recurring character going forwards, so most of her outstanding stuff probably gets resolved in the next few strips. Establish that the Godsmoot is still ongoing, and all the high level priests have their hands tied. Then the Order re-unites with the Mechane and heads onward to the pole, cut to Team Evil, something ominous happens and boom cliffhanger. That all fits into 10 pages pretty easily.

I'm not sure if Minrah will stick around. I think it'd be pretty easy to write her out, there's a loose vampire running about after all that someone should deal with, but I could also see her staying on as a secondary character going forward into Book 7.

I've also been predicting the vampire hosts getting raised, since raising dwarves to save their souls from Hel was already a thing, and it might be nice to parallel that at the end of the book. Plus, it'd be a good moment. But I could just as easily see that not happening

I think the big question is: What is the cliffhanger going to be?

Because there has to be at least one. Maybe the chekhov's gun that is Right-Eye's daughter finally goes off. Maybe there's some big reveal about the gates or the snarl. Maybe Team Evil just finds the last gate. Up until the latest strip I was betting on Loki, Rat and Tiamat being revealed to be working with the Dark One, and the plan is much grander than previously thought, but 1177 seems to sink that theory, and honestly it probably would have felt like a repeat of the last cliffhanger.

(Emphasis mine)
I know! We’ll switch to Team Evil and discover that Lien is Redcloak’s niece!

[BasiliskSoldier]

I know! We’ll switch to Team Evil and discover that Lien is Redcloak’s niece!

Of course! It's so obvious!

In all seriousness, Right-Eye's daughter is going to show up again. If she's revealed to have been an established character the whole time, I would be extremely surprised and also light a couple dollars, but she's going to show up in some capacity. You don't put that card on the table and not play it. Same for the enchantment on the MiTD and the Gem containing the souls of Lirian and Dorukan.

If she's going to be a significant character next book, her introduction could work as part of the ending of this book (though my bet is personally on Team Evil finding the gate). Of course it's possible she won't get introduced until later, and it's possible she isn't even a significant character, but at some point in the main story we will meet her. I'm confident about that

[Ruck]

You don't put that card on the table and not play it.

He's on record as thinking that Conservation of Detail (that is, only including things because they're ultimately important to the actual narrative) is overrated.

1234567890

[Jasdoif]

He's on record as thinking that Conservation of Detail (that is, only including things because they're ultimately important to the actual narrative) is overrated.

Specifically, in relation to #571:

The lizardfolk details are world-building, not foreshadowing. It's the first clue that in part of this world (the part that the Oracle hails from), lizardfolk can be civilized businesspeople engaged in long-term contracts, as opposed to most D&D worlds where they run around in swamps with crude spears. It's a sneak peak at what the Western Continent will look like when we get there: half human, half reptilian. That's it.

The Oracle says, "Say hello to your boss for me," because it's small talk, and he's being friendly. Given that the Oracle is usually a jackass, this in turn reveals something about his personality: He is friendly and jovial to fellow reptilians, but not to mammals.

In other words, Conservation of Detail is overrated.

[Schroeswald]

I mean, in that case I still feel like "actual reason for character to be there" is important. Wouldn't that just make it better?

But as far as that Doylist reasoning you're using goes, I don't think that works very well for this story, either. It just seems to me that sometimes the Giant fleshes out characters because he likes fleshing out characters to make the world more real. And then people go "that means this person is sticking around/important!" and sometimes they are, but other times, not so much. He's on record as thinking that Conservation of Detail (that is, only including things because they're ultimately important to the actual narrative) is overrated.

I say all of this, but I don't have anything against Minrah and have found her role in the story interesting so far. I just don't think it's being set up to be expanded upon. Could be wrong, obviously.

I do recognize that Conservation of Detail is overrated, and if the Giant was following Conservation of Detail I'd be saying that Bandana and Andi had too much page time for what they did, but I disagree with that. Minrah's development is more so than most more plot relevant characters, yet she hasn't even really had a sub-plot, I wouldn't be all that surprised if her last appearance is very soon, but she'll be surpassing Z in appearances pretty soon, and thats a lot of appearances for not even having a subplot (Besides the being amazing thing), also the "Conservation of detail is overrated" thing was about a throwaway line, not an entire major character. As for having an actual reason, I don't expect her to not have a reason, I just don't know what the reason is, I also expect Sabine (and Thog) to return and my only expectation for what she'll do is "something for the IFCC", which is only a bit less vague than what I expect Minrah to do ("something on the Mechane/journey to the North Pole").

[Peelee]

You don't put that card on the table and not play it.

There's something omitted from the quotes on conservation of detail that I think may well apply here as well:

I love the certainty expressed here.

[RatElemental]

I've also been predicting the vampire hosts getting raised, since raising dwarves to save their souls from Hel was already a thing, and it might be nice to parallel that at the end of the book. Plus, it'd be a good moment. But I could just as easily see that not happening

But why though? They all died honorably in battle against a vampire.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, I don't really think her establishing she doesn't want to stay dead because she wants to lead a full life and things she can still do good would be the same as her asking or wanting to accompany them for the rest of their journey.

I am not suggesting she will want to accompany them. I am merely pointing out that Roy has already decided that he's not going to refuse help. "She goes along" is a valid possibility. "She stays behind of her own volition" is too. "She wants to go and Roy tells her no" seems a bit harder to match with Roy's views (although I also cannot discount him changing his mind, mind you).

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

If they really leave without the council vote being complete, I can see her staying to help against any remaining vampires (we know there's only Curly*, the Brave, but they don't and we may be wrong)

[BasiliskSoldier]

There's something omitted from the quotes on conservation of detail that I think may well apply here as well:

That's fair.

But I think this is different. Redcloak and his potential heel–face turn is setup to be a focal point for Book 7, his family is almost certainly going to play into it, and Start of Darkness made a point of establishing that Redcloak only has one living relative when it easily could have killed off Right-Eye's entire family. Conservation of Detail is massively overrated, but Redcloak having a niece who was sent away for her safety and hasn't been seen since is not exactly a minor detail. That's a setup.

None of the OOTS really know about Redcloak's history, or that much about his motives. The audience knows, but the characters don't really. If only there was some sort of character with a familial connection to Redcloak, who might be able to fill in some of those holes in the Order's knowledge, while at the same time having a potentially interesting dynamic both because of what Redcloak has done and because as a Goblin raised outside of Goblin culture she might have a different, contrasting perspective, while also representing a classic DnD archetype (good alignment monster race adventurer) that has thus far been surprisingly absent from the comic.

[Peelee]

That's fair.

But I think this is different. Redcloak and his potential heel–face turn is setup to be a focal point for Book 7, his family is almost certainly going to play into it, and Start of Darkness made a point of establishing that Redcloak only has one living relative when it easily could have killed off Right-Eye's entire family. Conservation of Detail is massively overrated, but Redcloak having a niece who was sent away for her safety and hasn't been seen since is not exactly a minor detail. That's a setup.

There's a hitch, though: she's in a paid, print-only source that is explicitly not required to enjoy the main comic. She's a supplemental story character. That's not to say she definitely won't show up again, but it is a hurdle to cross for the "she will" argument, and no insignificant hurdle either; the closer the story gets to the end, the more out of nowhere it would seem to come for online-only readers. And we're nearly at the final book.

[Fyraltari]

There's a hitch, though: she's in a paid, print-only source that is explicitly not required to enjoy the main comic. She's a supplemental story character. That's not to say she definitely won't show up again, but it is a hurdle to cross for the "she will" argument, and no insignificant hurdle either; the closer the story gets to the end, the more out of nowhere it would seem to come for online-only readers. And we're nearly at the final book.

Durkon's prophecy was first mentionned in a paid source that's explicitly not required to enjoy the main comic* but that didn't stop it from appearing in comic number one thousand and ninety six.

The Giant is on record that:
A) he writes everything too long and
B) the seventh book may look like a phonebook.

*Print-only? My Start of Darkness PDF says otherwise.

[Peelee]

Durkon's prophecy was first mentionned in a paid source that's explicitly not required to enjoy the main comic* but that didn't stop it from appearing in comic number one thousand and ninety six.

I didn't say that meant it wouldn't happen, I said it was a hurdle.

*Print-only? My Start of Darkness PDF says otherwise.

Doesn't that stand for Printed Digitally Format? I can also do mental gymnastics with the word "document" if you wish!

[Fyraltari]

Doesn't that stand for Printed Digitally Format? I can also do mental gymnastics with the word "document" if you wish!

Adjective-adverb-noun? You can do better than that, Peelee.

[Peelee]

Adjective-adverb-noun? You can do better than that, Peelee.

Printed Digitally, Formatted?

[Fyraltari]

Printed Digitally, Formatted?

Printed and Digitally Formatted.

Re: Redcloak's niece. The online comic has made several refereces to Right-Eye, and given Durkon's newfound holy mission, I am 90% certain Book 7 will feature flashbacks to the brothers' story. Would be a good point to introduce the niece.

I am unsure what role she would play but I do find it weird that the Giant decided that all of Right-Eye's family would die except one and never bring that one up afterwards.

[BasiliskSoldier]

There's a hitch, though: she's in a paid, print-only source that is explicitly not required to enjoy the main comic. She's a supplemental story character. That's not to say she definitely won't show up again, but it is a hurdle to cross for the "she will" argument, and no insignificant hurdle either; the closer the story gets to the end, the more out of nowhere it would seem to come for online-only readers. And we're nearly at the final book.

I agree, for what it's worth.

But, Start of Darkness introduced a couple plot points in addition to Right-Eye's daughter, like the enchantment on the MiTD and the Soul Gem, and both of those are probably getting re-incorporated as well. Team Evil's been taking a back seat for two books, and once Book 7 starts spooling up I think we're going to see those loose threads from SoD start getting incorporated into the main comic as they get brought back into the limelight.

I personally don't think she'll show up until early in Book 7, but Book 6 is probably going to end on a big cliffhanger reveal (akin to the Planet in the Rifts or the High Priest of Hel) and I think she'd be a potential candidate, even if there's some I think are more likely, like Team Evil finding the last gate.

I am unsure what role she would play but I do find it weird that the Giant decided that all of Right-Eye's family would die except one and never bring that one up afterwards.

Exposition, is the obvious one. Someone needs to tell the Order about Redcloak's origins, and she's the best candidate in my mind. Her understanding won't be perfect, (because Right-Eye sent her away when she was extremely young) but she'll probably have remembered stories and learned a bit on her own initiative since then, which will probably be good enough.

Also, some part to play in the Order's attempts to redeem Redcloak. She'll probably have been raised by humans, and would probably have a different PoV on how to reach a better future for the Goblin people. Might work decently as a counter-argument to redcloak's perspective. She'd probably have a grudge against Redcloak and desire to avenge the deaths of her family, which could conflict with the Order's need for Redcloak to switch teams. I also think Redcloak's going to have to face the same decision he made with Right-Eye, kill a family member or abandon the plan.

I'm also hoping she's a Paladin. Because I think Redcloak would hate that.

[Peelee]

Printed and Digitally Formatted.

Yes, that is what I said up top. Also, I think it'll just be easier on both of us if you agree so I don't have to go and edit it while trying to divert attention away from the edit date by doin-LOOK OVER THERE IT'S A CIRCUS!

Re: Redcloak's niece. The online comic has made several refereces to Right-Eye, and given Durkon's newfound holy mission, I am 90% certain Book 7 will feature flashbacks to the brothers' story. Would be a good point to introduce the niece.

Good point. Counterpoint: How would Durkon find out or be able to use that information, though?

I agree, for what it's worth.

But, Start of Darkness introduced a couple plot points in addition to Right-Eye's daughter, like the enchantment on the MiTD and the Soul Gem, and both of those are probably getting re-incorporated as well. Team Evil's been taking a back seat for two books, and once Book 7 starts spooling up I think we're going to see those loose threads from SoD start getting incorporated into the main comic as they get brought back into the limelight.

I personally don't think she'll show up until early in Book 7, but Book 6 is probably going to end on a big cliffhanger reveal (akin to the Planet in the Rifts or the High Priest of Hel) and I think she'd be a potential candidate, even if there's some I think are more likely, like Team Evil finding the last gate.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

How long ago was all that, anyway? I had a while thing going on how goblins are very short-lived and Reddie gets around that thanks to the Crimson Mantle but I think I remember it not being terribly long before battling Dorukan, which would put it around a year and a half to two years.

Also, isn't she being raised by humans? Assuming your prediction is correct, do you have any ideas on how that might play into it?

[Squire Doodad]

I'm also hoping she's a Paladin. Because I think Redcloak would hate that.

"Listen to me young miss, you will unleash untold hyper-deific terror on the world and doom us all, and you will LIKE it!"

[Fyraltari]

Yes, that is what I said up top. Also, I think it'll just be easier on both of us if you agree so I don't have to go and edit it while trying to divert attention away from the edit date by doin-LOOK OVER THERE IT'S A CIRCUS!

Do they have acrobats?

Good point. Counterpoint: How would Durkon find out or be able to use that information, though?

Find out? She shows up somehow. Use? As part of convincing Redcloak not to repeat his past mistakes.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

How long ago was all that, anyway? I had a while thing going on how goblins are very short-lived and Reddie gets around that thanks to the Crimson Mantle but I think I remember it not being terribly long before battling Dorukan, which would put it around a year and a half to two years.

She was old enough to look childlike but make correct sentences (unlike Eric) "three years ago" in SoD so that must be around four years from now. I'm guessing she's a goblin teenager now. Hmm, that's younger than I thought.

Also, isn't she being raised by humans? Assuming your prediction is correct, do you have any ideas on how that might play into it?

"Humans - or worse! -..."
It might serve as another example of goblins and player races coexisting.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Good point. Counterpoint: How would Durkon find out or be able to use that information, though?

Redcloak's Niece is probably the best source of exposition. Another set of crayon drawings as she tells the story from what she remembers of her father and what she's pieced together since then.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

How long ago was all that, anyway? I had a while thing going on how goblins are very short-lived and Reddie gets around that thanks to the Crimson Mantle but I think I remember it not being terribly long before battling Dorukan, which would put it around a year and a half to two years.

Also, isn't she being raised by humans? Assuming your prediction is correct, do you have any ideas on how that might play into it?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Three years before the start of the comic, another year having passed in comics time. So a little over four years. Since Goblins age rapidly, she's probably old enough to credibly be a low-level adventurer, but the timeline is tight.

As far as being raised by humans goes, she's probably got a good alignment and I suspect she'll be some sort of adventurer. Hoping for Paladin.

[Schroeswald]

I'm also hoping she's a Paladin. Because I think Redcloak would hate that.

She was clearly Miko, I already told everyone this a few days ago.

[Jasdoif]

I am unsure what role she would play but I do find it weird that the Giant decided that all of Right-Eye's family would die except one and never bring that one up afterwards.

I can think of a pretty straightforward possible reason:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Right-Eye's talk about "consider what's best for the next generation" isn't purely in the abstract. His daughter is still out there, and he feels obligated to help her better than he did his wife and son...which comes back to why he'd put together such a drawn-out plan, and thus why he had everything he needed to pull it off (short of Redcloak's acceptance of it).

Of course, that remains true even if she does show up in some capacity. Or if she truly is Trigak, I suppose....