OOTS #1180 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

I’m sure if Minrah comes back in an hour ready to join the party and she happens to be a vampire, Roy will let her join them anyhow.

Because he promised she could come with, and also because reading a story where people act really, really stupid for no reason is fun.

SHE can, but not the thing running around in her body. They stake it and bring her back again. :D

[Fish]

In general, the story is rounding 3rd base and heading for home plate which is a weird time to introduce new core characters.

Emphasis mine; citation needed.

Who says she’s a “core” character? Because she’s leaving with the group at the end of a book? I guess that means Hinjo and O-Chul are “core” characters, except they aren’t. Or Bandana and the ship’s crew. Is there some floaty text over their heads that says “core character” that you can see, and I can’t?

Everybody here just needs to get a good predictive text keyboard and then post here on mobile so much that "Fyraltari" becomes one of the top suggestions any time you press a capital F.

I approve this message.

Cheers,
Fyraltari

[Ghosty]

I don't really expect her combat prowess to be critical. Quite the opposite: As someone Redcloak doesn't need to worry about killing quickly, who also hasn't killed or caused the death of numerous goblins in the pursuit of Xykon, and who knows everything Thor asked Durkon to do because she was there when Thor told Durkon; she has a good chance of being heard long enough for Redcloak to hear what Thor has in mind.

Precisely this. There's a reason there were two mortals present to hear of Thor's plan with the Dark One. I think Minrah will end up being essential to telling RedCloak about it. Now, whether RedCloak wants to do anything about what she tells him, that's another question.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoilers.

Show

RedCloak is eventually going to get past why he killed his brother, and start asking what he can do now to make things right for goblins.

Or he's going to go through with The Plan even if causes the entire world to be destroyed. I wonder if RedCloak would abandon The Plan even if The Dark One himself came down and told him too?

As to the too many characters observation, I thought that at points in the past, in BRITF, and the Giant thinned the herd pretty decisively. Nale, Tsukiko, Thog, and a bunch of others I don't think we'll see for very long ever again: Haley's dad and pretty much everyone else from the Empire of Blood, Sabine. Pretty much all of Gobbotopia, absent maybe a cut scene showing Xykon obliterating it if he doubts RedCloak's further utility.

I think the story will be quite manageable in Book 7. I am looking forward to seeing more characters like maybe Serini or the MITD's family. (I read elsewhere, though I don't think it'll happen, that a hilarious cliffhanger to this book would be Team Evil finding the right door to the Gate, seeing an absolutely hideous, awe-inspiring monster as the final guardian, and MITD exclaiming, "Hi, Dad!")

[Schroeswald]

Precisely this. There's a reason there were two mortals present to hear of Thor's plan with the Dark One. I think Minrah will end up being essential to telling RedCloak about it. Now, whether RedCloak wants to do anything about what she tells him, that's another question.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoiler.

Show

RedCloak is eventually going to get past why he killed his brother, and start asking what he can do now to make things right for goblins.

Or he's going to go through with The Plan even if causes the entire world to be destroyed. I wonder if RedCloak would abandon The Plan even if The Dark One himself came down and told him too?

As to the too many characters observation, I thought that at points in the past, in BRITF, and the Giant thinned the herd pretty decisively. Nale, Tsukiko, Thog, and a bunch of others I don't think we'll see for very long ever again: Haley's dad and pretty much everyone else from the Empire of Blood, Sabine. Pretty much all of Gobbotopia, absent maybe a cut scene showing Xykon obliterating it if he doubts RedCloak's further utility.

I think the story will be quite manageable in Book 7. I am looking forward to seeing more characters like maybe Serini or the MITD's family. (I read elsewhere, though I don't think it'll happen, that a hilarious cliffhanger to this book would be Team Evil finding the right door to the Gate, seeing an absolutely hideous, awe-inspiring monster as the final guardian, and MITD exclaiming, "Hi, Dad!")

Emphasis mine
Uh, Sabine is unequivocally still here, the IFCC is still around and not wrapped up while she was brought into the fold of it clearly.

[The MunchKING]

Emphasis mine
Uh, Sabine is unequivocally still here, the IFCC is still around and not wrapped up while she was brought into the fold of it clearly.

Also she was only banished for like, a day. Assuming she didn't get vaporized trying to sneak a revenge-kill in on Laurin, she's still around to cause trouble.

[Ghosty]

Also she was only banished for like, a day. Assuming she didn't get vaporized trying to sneak a revenge-kill in on Laurin, she's still around to cause trouble.

I didn't mean she was deceased. I tried to put her in the same category as Haley's dad, and their group: not dead, just out of the story.

I doubt that we'll see much of her again. As much as I thought the character was funny, what part of the story or character development do we need Sabine for? I mean, if she comes back, great.

Sorry for not putting a spoiler tag where I need to. Oversight. Wasn't intentional.

Those of you who haven't read Start of Darkness, go do that. Not that long, easy to find, now that you can just get the .pdf. It's some of the Giant's best writing.

[Schroeswald]

I didn't mean she was deceased. I tried to put her in the same category as Haley's dad, and their group: not dead, just out of the story.

I doubt that we'll see much of her again. As much as I thought the character was funny, what part of the story or character development do we need Sabine for? I mean, if she comes back, great.

Sorry for not putting a spoiler tag where I need to. Oversight. Wasn't intentional.

Those of you who haven't read Start of Darkness, go do that. Not that long, easy to find, now that you can just get the .pdf. It's some of the Giant's best writing.

I completely missed that it should have been spoiled, but she is one of two employees for the IFCC, who make up one of the main antagonistic groups still active, as they have a precisely 0% chance of not returning, she is just as certain to return as Qarr (who I see you didn't include along with her), she'll return, not necessarily for character development but because its weird to ignore the major recurring character who works for one of the active antagonists.

[Fyraltari]

It's also been strongly foreshadowed that she will betray the Directors back in 0804 : Where Her Loyalties Lie.

[Squire Doodad]

It's also been strongly foreshadowed that she will betray the Directors back in 0804 : Where Her Loyalties Lie.

Or at least she would have for Nale - but that's a whole other debate right there.

[Schroeswald]

Or at least she would have for Nale - but that's a whole other debate right there.

I mean I think she still has a chance too, the IFCC could send her out to fight Team Evil, and well look at that! It might well include the only person alive capable of bringing Nale back (I'm not gonna place any bets on this, in fact its probably not going to happen but it's a nice and plausible theory that does make a betrayal for Nale possible).

[Squire Doodad]

I mean I think she still has a chance too, the IFCC could send her out to fight Team Evil, and well look at that! It might well include the only person alive capable of bringing Nale back (I'm not gonna place any bets on this, in fact its probably not going to happen but it's a nice and plausible theory that does make a betrayal for Nale possible).

On the other hand, Rich made a big deal out of Nale dying: it tied up a very long running thread, and marked a huge shift in Tarquin, Elan and oddly enough Nale's own characters.

Bringing him back would, much like Tarquin, partially negate much of BRitF

[Schroeswald]

On the other hand, Rich made a big deal out of Nale dying: it tied up a very long running thread, and marked a huge shift in Tarquin, Elan and oddly enough Nale's own characters.

Bringing him back would, much like Tarquin, partially negate much of BRitF

I mean, just because Sabine would betray them doesn't mean it would actually happen (like I said, I doubt he'll be revived, but there are plenty of possibilities that lead to it not actually working), but yeah, I didn't really think of that and I agree with you.

[Ghosty]

I mean, just because Sabine would betray them doesn't mean it would actually happen (like I said, I doubt he'll be revived, but there are plenty of possibilities that lead to it not actually working), but yeah, I didn't really think of that and I agree with you.

Probably been discussed already, but how would their relationship change with him dying? She's able to come and go through the Nine Hells? Or the Abyss? Or only because she's working for the IFCC?

I thought Nale was going to end up in the LE afterlife.. Wouldn't Nale's shade be changed into a lemure, manes, or some other cannon-fodder Outer Planes creature? Or is there a chance that something still resembling Nale still exists in the LE afterlife?

[Schroeswald]

Probably been discussed already, but how would their relationship change with him dying? She's able to come and go through the Nine Hells? Or the Abyss? Or only because she's working for the IFCC?

I thought Nale was going to end up in the LE afterlife.. Wouldn't Nale's shade be changed into a lemure, manes, or some other cannon-fodder Outer Planes creature? Or is there a chance that something still resembling Nale still exists in the LE afterlife?

I'd say his soul still exists (but also, The Giant hinted that he wouldn't necessarily be Lawful Evil and so would go to somewhere else, presumably the LE/NE, NE, NE/CE or CE afterlives).

Awhile back (relative to the few months I've been here) I proposed the idea that Sabine would get Nale's soul, and no one did discuss whether his soul still existed (but I have no understanding of the Great Wheel so someone else can answer it better).

[BarakDeathBlade]

It's also been strongly foreshadowed that she will betray the Directors back in .

Wow, had to delete your reference, can't post images or links even in quotes. Post 10 here I come! But Fyraltari was referencing Quarr commenting on a prior mortal falling in love with that face (Elan's face at the time).

I would say that ship has sailed; while cleaning up the remains of the HD TV in the IFCC office, she whispered a ton of information about the Vector Legion to V, precisely because Grand Moff Tarquin killed that pretty face. Her main goal isn't to betray the Directors, it's to avenge Nale.

Sabine may show up, along with the imp, as representatives for the IFCC. But not to betray them over Nale; they didn't kill Nale, and unless the OotS goes after Tarquin she's not going to be siding with them. Sharing information maybe, maybe even inadvertantly since she doesn't know anywhere near what Durkon knows. (To be fair, she knows about what Elan knows, if that isn't too insulting to her...)

[Schroeswald]

Wow, had to delete your reference, can't post images or links even in quotes. Post 10 here I come! But Fyraltari was referencing Quarr commenting on a prior mortal falling in love with that face (Elan's face at the time).

I would say that ship has sailed; while cleaning up the remains of the HD TV in the IFCC office, she whispered a ton of information about the Vector Legion to V, precisely because Grand Moff Tarquin killed that pretty face. Her main goal isn't to betray the Directors, it's to avenge Nale.

Sabine may show up, along with the imp, as representatives for the IFCC. But not to betray them over Nale; they didn't kill Nale, and unless the OotS goes after Tarquin she's not going to be siding with them. Sharing information maybe, maybe even inadvertantly since she doesn't know anywhere near what Durkon knows. (To be fair, she knows about what Elan knows, if that isn't too insulting to her...)

1. I doubt that she'd give up a chance to revive Nale if it came across, I doubt it would but it is perfectly plausible for Redcloak or someone to hold that over her head to work against the IFCC (but it won't happen because Rich is on record saying True Res won't happen).

2.Whatever Elan (or V, the person they're actually watching) knows could include Durkon offscreen telling them about what he knows (but even if it doesn't it will be soon, and just so I can mention a theory before the book ends, the final line of the book will be someone, possibly the IFCC, saying sh*t).

[F.Harr]

Two delightful moments! I'm quite happy. :)

[Fyraltari]

To clarify: my position is still that the IFCC will try to use the Vector Legion as a replacement for the Linear Guild but Sabine will betray them because the VL killed Nale, which would probably end up with her death. And no that ship hasn’t sailed: what that strip strongly implies is that when push come to shove she would choose Nale over the Directors whatever the cost. Helping the Order escape the Vector Legion did not involve making that choice at all.

[Cerlis]

On the other hand, Rich made a big deal out of Nale dying: it tied up a very long running thread, and marked a huge shift in Tarquin, Elan and oddly enough Nale's own characters.

Bringing him back would, much like Tarquin, partially negate much of BRitF

they were muddling up the plot.

Sabine giving the order a loophole to keep vaarsuvius from being whammied at the wrong moment seems like something she'd trade for a promise to raise Nale (later) with the stipulation that they leave them alone.

i can see his death as being an eye opener for him, and she definately loves him enough to go against her own chaotic nature and keep him in check.

it would be a suitable epilogue moment. can you imagine like...Sabine and Nale settling down and having kids with Nale attempting to raise his kids right (and by that i mean True Neutral).

Just imagine him telling his little half fiend 4 year old that 'hitting back" isnt the way to solve a problem because revenge will just get you revenged back. Better to butter your bully up and get them on your side.

ect ect. I mean Nale is was what? 22? god knows what some of us would have done at that age if magic were real and we were raised by Tarquinn. Similar to Daria's short story about her family, IDK if Quinn can see the error of her ways maybe Nale can (after having almost died forever)

[mjasghar]

It’s strange how people fall over themselves to make excuses for evil people
This is the same Nale who as a child Brian damaged Elan
At some point people have to take responsibility for their own actions
Millions of people get raised in evil conditions and don’t end up evil
I notice you don’t ask for Nale’s victims to be raised - obviously they don’t matter because they aren’t evil.

[Schroeswald]

It’s strange how people fall over themselves to make excuses for evil people
This is the same Nale who as a child Brian damaged Elan
At some point people have to take responsibility for their own actions
Millions of people get raised in evil conditions and don’t end up evil
I notice you don’t ask for Nale’s victims to be raised - obviously they don’t matter because they aren’t evil.

No, they don't matter because we don't know their names. Simple as that really, the only named character Nale killed was Malack, the only named character anyone in the Linear Guild killed was Malack and sort of Durkon (who fun fact, was revived, and I say sort of because Hilgya and Malack weren't really part of the LG when they killed Durkon), therefore they don't matter, it's pretty simple actually and was mentioned in the comic when Gannji and Enor escaped, technically those guards were also characters but we don't care because we know who Gannji and Enor are (and I like to imagine that the Rookie has been raising money to resurrect the Chief for the past year, the Chief being the most significant non-Evil aligned character to die to the LG).

However I mostly agree with you, Nale is not getting redeemed, he shouldn't get redeemed (in the story, of course it is objectively a good thing for him to no longer be Evil), he shouldn't even be revived, I would love to see him in the denouement, as a soul in an Evil afterlife being "rescued" by Sabine, nothing else.

[Fyraltari]

Us not knowing her name didn’t stop Roy from bringing up the Earth Sylph Thog murdered way back in the Dungeon of Dorukan in the Arena, though.

[RatElemental]

Us not knowing her name didn’t stop Roy from bringing up the Earth Sylph Thog murdered way back in the Dungeon of Dorukan in the Arena, though.

Unfortunately the only person capable of raising her currently is Redcloak. I could see Durkon getting there eventually though, dwarves live pretty long.

[Dion]

Trigak has a better chance of coming back than Nale.

[BasiliskSoldier]

No, they don't matter because we don't know their names. Simple as that really

Nale and his party murdered Celia's friends and the Police Chief, who may not have been named but they were characters, and people who had done absolutely nothing wrong. You also had a lot of innocent victims who weren't characters but who should still matter in regards to Nale's morality. The man was a petty bastard who butchered people without remorse because it was convenient, and that's completely disregarding his many counts of attempted murder.

I suspect Nale will be the main character of the next Prequel Book, and this will probably be his final appearance as a character in the story (I do not think he'll be resurrected, and if he does return it'll probably be as a demon/devil of some sort) because his purpose in the main plot seems to be finished. The Linear Guild/Vector Legion prequel is the best shot for a look at Nale as a character who maybe could have been a good or at least not-evil person had things gone a different way. I don't think he'll be absolved of any of his crimes, but I do think he'll be played for some tragedy.

But he won't be redeemed. Ever. Doesn't matter that he was 22, there's no excuse for the things he's done. Maybe he would have turned out differently if he hadn't been raised how he was, but that in no way absolves him of responsibility for all the reprehensible **** he did.

[Quebbster]

Unfortunately the only person capable of raising her currently is Redcloak. I could see Durkon getting there eventually though, dwarves live pretty long.

I thought outsiders couldn't be raised, period?

[Fish]

I think I know one reason why Minrah is here: she’s providing a good example for Belkar.

Think about it. Minrah returned from the afterlife because there were important things she had to do, whatever the personal cost. And Belkar is the guy who said Shojo would not come back from the afterlife because he was off enjoying his reward. As we also have reason to believe that Belkar will not survive the story, Minrah might just be around to show him what sacrifice can really do.

[Emanick]

I thought outsiders couldn't be raised, period?

True Resurrection can raise outsiders, by RAW. It is possible that, in the OOTSverse, it doesn't work that way, but Celia is more likely just making a generalization, because most casters capable of raising the dead aren't capable of bringing back Outsiders.

[Frozenstep]

I think I know one reason why Minrah is here: she’s providing a good example for Belkar.

Think about it. Minrah returned from the afterlife because there were important things she had to do, whatever the personal cost. And Belkar is the guy who said Shojo would not come back from the afterlife because he was off enjoying his reward. As we also have reason to believe that Belkar will not survive the story, Minrah might just be around to show him what sacrifice can really do.

Not sold on this. Not sure, between Durkon already kind of having done it already right in front of his eyes, the fact that Minrah's choice to come back was too out of sight from Belkar, and how much Belkar has already developed, I just don't think that would feel right. It would feel more right if Mr. Scruffy did it, to be honest, though him coming to the conclusion himself when faced with the right situation is far more likely than that.

[The Pilgrim]

I suspect Nale will be the main character of the next Prequel Book, and this will probably be his final appearance as a character in the story (I do not think he'll be resurrected, and if he does return it'll probably be as a demon/devil of some sort) because his purpose in the main plot seems to be finished. The Linear Guild/Vector Legion prequel is the best shot for a look at Nale as a character who maybe could have been a good or at least not-evil person had things gone a different way. I don't think he'll be absolved of any of his crimes, but I do think he'll be played for some tragedy.

I wouldn't bet on The Giant going to write that kind of prequel, ever. He may, but such a prequel presents some difficulties to him, as an Author.

For starters, it would involve the same kind of dark story than Start of Darkness. And he has alreadt stated he doesn't like to write that kind of story. And, unlike SoD, he couldn't have a tragic villiain as main character of the story. The only character suitable for such a role would be Nale, but I do not think The Giant is interested in making a tragic figure out of Nale.

Because, what would writting about Nale's backstory add to the current story? The Giant stated that he refused to write a backstory for Belkar because his story didn't need it. He didn't need to provide reasons on why the halfling was a murdering psychopath. He thought that Redcloak would need a backstory to explain his behaviour, but he did it only for him, not Xykon. In SoD, Xykon is already pretty much like as presented in the main comic, and there is not a lot of character development provided to explain why he is a total self-serving monster. Likewise, we don't need background explanation on why Tarquin or Malak were like they were. Does Nale? Does Nale have, like Redcloak, any more role to play in this story?

I have a soft spot for Nale because he was the villiain for the first attempt of the Giant at writting a meaningful story arc. Before him, this strip was all joke-of-the-day rpg-spoofing jokes starring a generic group of ragtag misfit heroes against a generic cliched villiain. After Nale, the Order had become actual characters you could emotionally invest in.

Nale was also the primal force that made Elan wake up and become a man. As a white male, I appreciate that the white male of the party stopped being just useless dead weight the rest of the team dragged around out of pity. And I aprpreciate Nale for forcing him to make the change. (Tarquin had a different role. As The Giant explained in the comments of BRitF, the confrontation between Tarquin and Elan was more of an allegorical confrontation of the white male that refuses to accept white males no longer run the show, and the white male who is fine with the new reality in which he shares the show with all other demographic groups).

But I'm afraid Nale's role is over, and we do not really need to know why he was evil. We already know he had a damaged ego that lead him into rebelling against his abusive father and into wanting to destroy his goody-two-shoes brother. But I don't think we need to be told why he became this way. He was just a recurring side villiain, after all.