OOTS #1180 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

In fairness, it's possible that the phrase "kudzu plot" has metastasized into the broader culture's vocabulary.* Kinda like how I think the Giant once speculated that he went with "lampshade hanging" rather than "signals from Fred" because of a vague sense that it was the better-known term, due in no small part to TV Tropes.

*(Or not, I was quite surprised at someone being confused and surprised at the use of "Your Mileage May Vary" in any context other than as the fine print in an ad for a car.)

True, though I would also contest that OotS fits the stated defition of "Kudzu plot," especially in regards to Hilgya's reappearance. It was a surprise, but a pretty straightforward one.

[HorizonWalker]

True, though I would also contest that OotS fits the stated defition of "Kudzu plot," especially in regards to Hilhya's reappearance. It was a surprise, but a pretty straightforward one.

If anything, it was working to resolve a dangling plot thread- "what about Hilgya?" was a question Haley herself asked in-comic, so Rich was clearly intending for Hilgya to still be A Thing in the back of our heads.

[Peelee]

TV Trope will ruin your life.

See, I don't understand that. It's just a wiki that's ridiculously over-saturated with links (IMO in a transparently vainglorious manner) in an attempt to classify literally every part of a work as either a trip or inversion of a trope. It's over-analytical and patently self-congratulatory.

That said, i realize I'm in the minority here, and if you like it, go you, that's awesome. I just wanted to throw out a contesting opinion.

[HorizonWalker]

See, I don't understand that. It's just a wiki that's ridiculously over-saturated with links (IMO in a transparently vainglorious manner) in an attempt to classify literally every part of a work as either a trip or inversion of a trope. It's over-analytical and patently self-congratulatory.

That said, i realize I'm in the minority here, and if you like it, go you, that's awesome. I just wanted to throw out a contesting opinion.

I'm with you here, yeah. I'd argue that there's something fundamentally pretty good at the core of TV Tropes, being "we think it's alright to deeply analyze any given work, even if it isn't so-called high art." And ideally, the only problems with TV Tropes would be the problems inherent to any large-scale amateur scholarship.

But, well, TV Tropes has also probably played a pretty big role in the existence of that CinemaSins jackass and thousands of people like him, so I've kinda soured on the whole thing.

[Grey Watcher]

It's over-analytical and patently self-congratulatory.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

[bunsen_h]

enough to kill for him.

That does not appear to be a high bar.

if anything he seems to be the only thing she cares about other than herself.

That's what we've seen so far, no question. But Cluster-B types -- and I think that what we've seen of Hilgya is consistent with that -- can flip on a dime from "you're the only person I care about" / "you and me against the world" to "you're the one who's holding me back". I don't think it's very likely at this point; Cluster B parents tend to be more about moulding a child to be codependent. But having just seen Dwarven family, which she hates, in action, I could see her wanting to break any such ties.

Doylistically, it would be tidier for Durkon's son to be left safely in Sigdi's care, with Hilgya having buggered off out of the story, than for Kudzu to have disappeared in the care of an extremely volatile and self-centred parent.

At any rate, we should know soon enough. At least this is a question that won't be left hanging for hours of story time / years of real time.

[Anitar]

That's what we've seen so far, no question. But Cluster-B types -- and I think that what we've seen of Hilgya is consistent with that -- can flip on a dime from "you're the only person I care about" / "you and me against the world" to "you're the one who's holding me back". I don't think it's very likely at this point; Cluster B parents tend to be more about moulding a child to be codependent. But having just seen Dwarven family, which she hates, in action, I could see her wanting to break any such ties.

I would just like to note for the record that, having a personality disorder myself-- a B, no less-- it never fails to rub me the wrong way when people use them as an explanation of an obviously evil character. Regardless of whether or not it seems accurate.

[rman]

You jest but Belkar is due to die according to the oracle

What exactly was that Belkar prophesy again? Never drawing another breath on this planet does not mean death, not if there are other planes with planets.

[Schroeswald]

What exactly was that Belkar prophesy again? Never drawing another breath on this planet does not mean death, not if there are other planes with planets.

No, its never draw another breath, and is not long for this world, not connected (also has no need to fund for retirement or will never eat a birthday cake).

[Red XIV]

What exactly was that Belkar prophesy again? Never drawing another breath on this planet does not mean death, not if there are other planes with planets.

The exact wording was, "Belkar will draw his last breath—ever—before the end of the year." Not a whole lot of wiggle room. And just before the Order left for the Western Continent, Roy indicated there's only 7 weeks left before the end of the year. The only wiggle room on that end is whether Roy knew which calendar the Oracle was marking "the end of the year" by.

[Peelee]

What exactly was that Belkar prophesy again? Never drawing another breath on this planet does not mean death, not if there are other planes with planets.

There were several. He us also not long for this world, should savor his next birthday cake, and shouldn't bother finding his IRA.

Collectively, I have yet to hear any theory that satisfies all theories without Belkar's death.

[Schroeswald]

There were several. He us also not long for this air d, should savor his next birthday cake, and shouldn't bother finding his IRA.

Collect8vely,i have yet to hear any theory that satisfies all theories without Belkar's death.

He's turned into a lich, before traveling to Xykon's astral fortress

[Peelee]

He's turned into a lich, before traveling to Xykon's astral fortress

Could still make use of an IRA. Arguably even more so, being unable to die from old age.

[Mad Humanist]

True, though I would also contest that OotS fits the stated defition of "Kudzu plot," especially in regards to Hilgya's reappearance. It was a surprise, but a pretty straightforward one.

Wow! I had no idea there was trope called "Kudzu plot". Certainly OOTS has a large number of plot threads. But when I last checked they pale into insignificance compared to Erfworld. (And I have not checked recently because I was so sick of it.)

[Quebbster]

I could maybe see Belkar getting lost forever on the Astral plane as fulfillment of the prophecy (assuming there is no need to eat or breathe there), but that is pretty much the same as being dead. Becoming undead is a common suggestion but that leaves the "not long for this world" clause unresolved.

[Schroeswald]

Could still make use of an IRA. Arguably even more so, being unable to die from old age.

... And forms a small nation there that bans IRA's.

[mjasghar]

... And forms a small nation there that bans IRA's.

{scrubbed}

[The Pilgrim]

Could still make use of an IRA. Arguably even more so, being unable to die from old age.

Not if the world gets also destroyed by the Snarl. Then the institution holding his IRA will be destroyed too, and he will be unable to recover the money. Therefore, Belkar shoudn't bother funding his IRA, as any money invested there will be lost.

[The MunchKING]

To be subjective, I've never heard of Kudzu plot being used outside of a TV Tropes reference, so I'm not sure I would say it has reached a broader population than TV Tropes readers.

[Peelee]

Not if the world gets also destroyed by the Snarl. Then the institution holding his IRA will be destroyed too, and he will be unable to recover the money. Therefore, Belkar shoudn't bother funding his IRA, as any money invested there will be lost.

True, but I'm going to go out on a limb and believe that the Oracle wasn't offering sound financial planning advice to Belks.

[Squire Doodad]

True, but I'm going to go out on a limb and believe that the Oracle wasn't offering sound financial planning advice to Belks.

Hey, maybe they patch things up in a few years and the Oracle just needs to act like they are sworn enemies until then.

[Peelee]

Hey, maybe they patch things up in a few years and the Oracle just needs to act like they are sworn enemies until then.

You mean before the current year's end, right?

[bunsen_h]

I would just like to note for the record that, having a personality disorder myself-- a B, no less-- it never fails to rub me the wrong way when people use them as an explanation of an obviously evil character. Regardless of whether or not it seems accurate.

I apologize for having given offense; that was not my intention.

I, and a couple of people close to me, have been burned pretty badly by the sudden flip from "you're my closest, dearest love" to "I hate you, get out of my life, you're to blame for all of my problems". Accompanied by voluminous falsehoods told to anyone who would listen, though no doubt the person in question believed what they were saying. That's why I take Hilgya's description of her family background with a salt lick: the pattern is familiar to me. Nevertheless, I am not qualified to diagnose, in real life nor in the OotSverse.

[Squire Doodad]

You mean before the current year's end, right?

Eh, if he becomes a lich to travel to another plane to found a small IRA-less nation, it's all worth it!

[Jasdoif]

True, but I'm going to go out on a limb and believe that the Oracle wasn't offering sound financial planning advice to Belks.

Unless the Oracle knew Belkar would go against it, if offered.

[Peelee]

Unless the Oracle knew Belkar would go against it, if offered.

But in any event, Belkar would forget it as soon as he left, so it's useless as an honest suggestion.

[Jasdoif]

But in any event, Belkar would forget it as soon as he left, so it's useless as an honest suggestion.

Unless he knew Roy would bypass the memory charm and later tell Belkar.

[Squire Doodad]

Unless he knew Roy would bypass the memory charm and later tell Belkar.

But how would he know that Roy would even pop in to be Dismissed? It'd be almost like he would have to see the- Ohhhhhhh

[Peelee]

Unless he knew Roy would bypass the memory charm and later tell Belkar.

But he didn't give the financial advise during that visit. I bet he's not even beholden to fiduciary duty!

[Jasdoif]

But how would he know that Roy would even pop in to be Dismissed? It'd be almost like he would have to see the- Ohhhhhhh

Yeah, nearly any theory will conform to the "character that sees the future sees the future, and so took action in the present to cause arbitrary effect of my choosing that we haven't seen yet" model; making such model worthless for serious predictions...but being deprived of birthday cake is serious business, so it's close enough for me to construe as worth talking about.

But he didn't give the financial advise during that visit. I bet he's not even beholden to fiduciary duty!

...are you suggesting the Oracle and Celia are both Trigak?