Star Wars FFG

[VolcanicErupt]

I'm trying to put together a 'Skill Monkey'. The best way I've found to do this is via Force Powers that allow you to add Successes & Advantages by spending force points. So far, I've found Enhance(Which gives you Athletics, Resilience, Brawl, Coordination, & both piloting skills.) & Influence(Which gives all of the Presense-based skills).

What I'm requesting of you guys is help finding the powers for Cunning, Intelligence, & Willpower skills, if there are any.

[Faily]

If you want to get into the headache that is Ebb/Flow, you could potentially get Force Die on all Skill Rolls. [Source: Disciples of Harmony]

Farsight with upgrades will let you add Force Die for Success/Advantage on Vigilance and Perception checks. [Source: Savage Spirits]
Foresee upgrade will let you add Force Die for Success/Advantage on Initiative checks. [Source: Core]
Manipulate does the same, but for Mechanics. [Source: Endless Vigil]
Battle Meditation would let you add Successes to the rolls of your teammates. [Source: Core]


Talents from Specializations
Enhanced Leader lets you add Force die to all Leadership checks. [Peacekeeper]
Transmogrify applies to any crafting check. [Alchemist, Magus]
Hawkbat Swoop will let you use Force pips for Advantages. [Ataru Striker]
Marked For Death adds automatic Advantages when Force die is committed. [Executioner]
Force Connection lets you add Force Die when rolling Survival or Knowledge (Xenology), giving Success/Advantage. [Hermit]
Intuitive Shot lets you add Force Die to Ranged (Heavy) or Ranged (Light), giving Success/Advantage. [Hunter]
Animal Empathy lets you add Force Die when handling or taming animals, for Success/Advantage. [Pathfinder]

[VolcanicErupt]

Those all sound like an insane amount of XP for not a lot of gain. So I'll probably refrain from trying to do any of those and just stick to the ones I got.

Since I don't have to buy into anything else though, I can make what I do have better by going into both Consular: Sage & Mystic: Seer for a Force Rating of 5.

Thanks for the assistance, though! Your input was helpful in me making a decision on how to build my character.

[Faily]

You're welcome.

The balancing point of the Force Powers is the XP cost it takes to really get them to the big levels, so yes, it all costs XP. FFG Star Wars imo remains one of the more well-balanced versions of Star Wars in terms of comparing Force characters and muggles next to eachother.

If you want to stick to one Career, you could do Mystic for Seer and Magus (Unlimited Power sourcebook). Magus only has 1 Force Rating increase, but it gives you Channel Agony. So if you're not too terribly concerned about your Morality, you could use Channel Agony to get extra Dark Side pips on your Force die rolls.


Force Rating 5 is pretty insane, but you're giving up a lot of utility and power in other arenas to race to FR5.

[Telwar]

Out of general curiosity, what's the headache with Ebb/Flow? I may have to point that out to our Force Rating-4 Seeker.

[Faily]

Out of general curiosity, what's the headache with Ebb/Flow? I may have to point that out to our Force Rating-4 Seeker.

Wooboi. Ok, here we go.

First off, because this is something many people forget. This isn't about just Ebb/Flow per se, but is relevant to the topic.

Spoiler: Clarification on Force Powers, Talents, and Force Talents

Show

First to clarify, a Force Power is the individual Talents purchased from the Force Power-tree (Influence, Move, Enhance, Seek, etc), where as Force Talents are Talents on specialization trees with the Force Talent-descriptor.

Each Force power focuses on a particular task that can be performed through the manipulation of the Force. Force powers might require Force power checks to activate temporary effects, or they could require users to commit Force dice to activate ongoing effects. Some might be able to do both. Using Force Powers, unless the power's description specifically states otherwise, requires one action in structured time (pg. 282 Force and Destiny).

This means that if a Force Talent says "The character may take a [Force Talent name] action, making a [insert Skill]/[insert Characteristic] check", the player may not combine the Talent with a Force Power that would enhance the dicepool (in the way that Enhance or Influence: Skills might).

This is because in the case of Force Powers like Enhance and Influence (Skills), activating those abilities makes it into a Force power check, which becomes its own action when used.

Thus when a Force Talent calls for [Force Talent name] action, you cannot change the action.

This also applies to other Talents that say "The character may take a [Talent name] action, making a [insert Skill]/[insert Characteristic] check". Talents with unique actions are unique and cannot be modified unless other Talents specifically do not change the action. Various Talents that state that you may always add various bonus dice (such as Keen Eyes, Stalker, Enhanced Leader, and others) apply as normal, as they do not change the nature of the action.

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Examples

Shadow wishes to use the Force Talent "Now You See Me". The Talent says:

"Once per session, the character may take the Now You See Me action, making a Hard Deception check If successful, a number of NPCs equal to his Cunning within medium range forget any interactions they had with the character during the last thirty minutes."

The action is "Now You See Me". Shadow also have the Influence Force Power, with the Upgrade: Control (Skills), which would normally allow for Shadow to add their Force Rating as a die to the dicepool. However, the text for the Control upgrade states:

"When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation check, the user may roll an Influence power check as part of the pool."

This would change the action from a "Now You See Me" action to a "Force Power check" action, and thus is not possible to combine the two - you may only perform one action per round and Talents are unique.

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Peacekeeper wishes to use the Talent "Field Commander". The Talent says:

"The character may take a Field Commander action. By successfully passing an Average Leadership check, a number of allies equal to his Presence may immediately suffer 1 strain to perform one maneuver."

Like with the example above, Peacekeeper can't use the Influence Force Power with the Upgrade: Control (Skills).

However, what Peacekeeper can do is to use "Field Commander" in conjunction with the Force Talent "Enhanced Leader", which does the following:

"When making a Leadership check, the character may add (Force die) no greater than Force rating to the check."

That is because "Enhanced Leader" does make the action into a Force power check. The Talent simply states that they may always benefit from it on all Leadership roles. This also means that Enhanced Leader is not affected by Range or Magnitude like Influence normally is, simply because the Talent states that it is always a part of the check.

Right. On to Ebb/Flow.

Base Power
Ebb: All engaged characters (including friendly ones) will suffer 1 strain, at the cost of 1 strain to yourself. Note that this base power cannot be activated more than once, so it will only inflict 1 strain regardless of the number of Pips generated.
Flow: No problem here. Roll to regain Strain is not spectacular, but ok. Like Ebb, it cannot be activated multiple times.
Note: The amount of Strain inflicted can be upgraded, and you can buy upgrades to exclude targets from the Strain-affecting power, at the cost of Force pips, so risky business.

Control
We'll just go with Flow for this one (middle column, the Combined Power checks).
These upgrades on the surface seem very good, and can be, but what's important is that they don't apply on the roll where you do your combined Power check, like most Force to X checks related-powers usually do. Influence and Enhance for instance allows you to roll, and then decide according to what your ability and proficiency dice produce to use Force Pips for Success or Advantages as needed. For Flow on the other hand, you must decide for the future.
Round 1 - Roll combined Flow Skill check. Use Force Pip for Advantage/Success (depending on upgrade) on rolls using the same Skill until the end of next turn. This means you need to setup for next turn's roll, and decide the if you want Successes or Advantages. Which makes it so you need to decide then and there how many you might want for the next turn, if you get to use the same Skill as you did for the Flow-check, and if you might need to flip the Force pips (and risk Conflict) as well.

So, in short. If you roll Lightsaber + Flow check on turn 1, you need to roll Lightsaber on turn 2 to benefit from any produced Advantage/Success from the Flow check from turn 1.

Control
Left bottom corner upgrade.
This one requires at least Force Rating 2 to be useful. Committ 1 Force Die, to roll 1 Force Die on all checks in the encounter. Committed dice can never be rolled, hence why you need FR2 to be able to use this one. Using this upgrade cannot be combined with the previously mentioned Control-upgrade (since you can't double-tap Force Powers ontop of eachother. Like I can't use Enhanced Leader *and* Influence with Skill upgrade to get double the benefit to Leadership skill checks).
Now, since this upgrade says "must", once committed there's no way around it and you're locking yourself out of other things by using it (unless you have high FR).
This upgrade doesn't allow you to choose how to use your Pips either. Those Dark Side pips *will* give you Strain and Conflict.


A lot of the trouble with Ebb/Flow is that it either setup (first Control upgrade) and it meshes poorly with a lot of other Talents, and cannot be used in synergy with some of the really cool stuff. As long as you're just making the same Skill check again and again and again... then sure, go for it. There are certainly worse powers to use.

But overall? I think Ebb/Flow looks much more appealing on paper than it is in practice. A lot of Force Users have a lot of Force Talents from their trees that usually serve them better.

[Telwar]

Aha, thank you!

[ArcanistSupreme]

Wooboi. Ok, here we go.

First off, because this is something many people forget. This isn't about just Ebb/Flow per se, but is relevant to the topic.


[SPOILER=Clarification on Force Powers, Talents, and Force Talents]First to clarify, a Force Power is the individual Talents purchased from the Force Power-tree (Influence, Move, Enhance, Seek, etc), where as Force Talents are Talents on specialization trees with the Force Talent-descriptor.

Each Force power focuses on a particular task that can be performed through the manipulation of the Force. Force powers might require Force power checks to activate temporary effects, or they could require users to commit Force dice to activate ongoing effects. Some might be able to do both. Using Force Powers, unless the power's description specifically states otherwise, requires one action in structured time (pg. 282 Force and Destiny).

This means that if a Force Talent says "The character may take a [Force Talent name] action, making a [insert Skill]/[insert Characteristic] check", the player may not combine the Talent with a Force Power that would enhance the dicepool (in the way that Enhance or Influence: Skills might).

This is because in the case of Force Powers like Enhance and Influence (Skills), activating those abilities makes it into a Force power check, which becomes its own action when used.

Thus when a Force Talent calls for [Force Talent name] action, you cannot change the action.

This also applies to other Talents that say "The character may take a [Talent name] action, making a [insert Skill]/[insert Characteristic] check". Talents with unique actions are unique and cannot be modified unless other Talents specifically do not change the action. Various Talents that state that you may always add various bonus dice (such as Keen Eyes, Stalker, Enhanced Leader, and others) apply as normal, as they do not change the nature of the action.

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While I think I understand your argument, it seems contrary to the simplicity of every other rule in the system (aside from vehicle rules) and I'm hesitant to play it that way at my table. Has there been a clear clarification on this topic in any FAQ, errata, or developer interview?

[Faily]

While I think I understand your argument, it seems contrary to the simplicity of every other rule in the system (aside from vehicle rules) and I'm hesitant to play it that way at my table. Has there been a clear clarification on this topic in any FAQ, errata, or developer interview?

The reason for these things don't stack is because is each Talent is a unique action.

Like you can't combine Scathing Tirade with Influence, as has been confirmed by Sam Stewart.

The simplicity is simply that Talents don't stack. That is the RAW. But hey, as long as your table wants to do it differently, that's totally cool too. I am a supporter of throwing out rules to enhance the fun for the entire group.

On the mechanical side, it does actually add to the balance of Force users vs non-Force users. Force Powers like Influence would absolutely make it easier for Force Users to activate their talents (Scathing Tirade, Now You See Me, Field Commander, Inspiring Rhetoric, etc). Following the RAW also means that Talents like Enhanced Leader isn't just a complete waste of space on specs like the Peacekeeper because Influence exists.

But again, do what works best for your table. I know that this particular issue caused some debate in one of my online groups, but one said it was supported by Podcast 66, and another went deep-diving in the FFG forums. I compiled the consensus of their findings into the post above for future use in the games we play.