Minrah's level

[faustin]

Yes, I know the author considers D&D rules as mere guidelines to help deliver the story.

That being said, I'm curious about Minrah's current level and how much xp she needs to gain to be a contributing to the Order.

Sure she was pretty good in the Hel arc, but most of their enemies were low level vampires. It wouldn't make sense having her starting to kick ass as much as, let's say, Belkar or even Elan.

[Mike Havran]

She is a multiclass Cleric/Fighter, and she has 3rd level spells, and did not demonstrate any spells above. So she has 5-6 Cleric levels and at least 1 Fighter level, minus 1 level because she died.

[NerdyKris]

Level isn't everything. She can still contribute in ways that don't involve dealing large amounts of damage.

There was a whole sequence about that involving a certain elf, a raven, and a phylactery.

[faustin]

Familiars are often underestimated and easy to dismiss in battle. An adventurer rarely has that luxury.

[Ephemera]

She pretty much told Roy that he has no idea what level she is (and that might even have been a tiny bit of Rich trolling the forum on this very subject).

It wouldn’t be crazy to conclude that she was saying she has more fighter (or some other fighter-like class) levels than cleric, which combined with her having 5-6 cleric levels, would mean she’s already near (or at) a level where she might be expected to contribute. It’s not totally explicit though, that she has that many fighter levels, but it’s pretty clear that we can’t pin down her level any further than was stated above—just note that that’s a minimum and we can’t really establish a useful maximum given the randomness of damage rolls and hit point totals.

Also, whatever it was, it’s one less now that she’s been resurrected, but we don’t know if she lost a cleric level or fighter level.

We’ll be keeping track over in the geekery thread as more evidence presents itself.

[Schroeswald]

She pretty much told Roy that he has no idea what level she is (and that might even have been a tiny bit of Rich trolling the forum on this very subject).

It wouldn’t be crazy to conclude that she was saying she has more fighter (or some other fighter-like class) levels than cleric, which combined with her having 5-6 cleric levels, would mean she’s already near (or at) a level where she might be expected to contribute. It’s not totally explicit though, that she has that many fighter levels, but it’s pretty clear that we can’t pin down her level any further than was stated above—just note that that’s a minimum and we can’t really establish a useful maximum given the randomness of damage rolls and hit point totals.

Also, whatever it was, it’s one less now that she’s been resurrected, but we don’t know if she lost a cleric level or fighter level.

We’ll be keeping track over in the geekery thread as more evidence presents itself.

We do know that it was a cleric level because she switched from fighter to cleric so her latest level was the one she lost.

[LadyEowyn]

When she first joins the Order to fight the vampires she says she was a guard before she was a cleric and that “I’m not the best caster but I have a hammer and I know how to swing it”. In 1180 she insists that she’s “a great fighter!”.

I’d guess based on that that she has more levels of Fighter than Cleric, but that’s only a guess.

[The Pilgrim]

Minrah describes herself as a "great fighter". Therefore, she has at least 4 fighter levels, as Level 3 is dumb level.

[D.One]

Minrah describes herself as a "great fighter". Therefore, she has at least 4 fighter levels, as Level 3 is dumb level.

Even though I do think she has more than the minimum 1 Fighter level we currently estimate, I believe Thog isn't on good authority to call anything or anyone "dumb".

More on the discussions about Minrah's level (and stats, and feats, an skills) can be found here.

[NerdyKris]

Familiars are often underestimated and easy to dismiss in battle. An adventurer rarely has that luxury.

Vaarsuvius was also depowered at that point, and Ochul was without weapons and armor. the point of that scene wasn't "familiars can be sneaky in a big fight", it was "sheer power isn't the only thing that matters". It was a direct refutation of Xykon's rant. Or possibly confirming it, as he was using what would be a minor skill to find Vaarsuvius while Vaarsuvius used a minor spell to enable removing his phylactery from their possession.

To use a more well known example, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum weren't a threat to anyone but undoubtedly are the ones who had the most impact on the mission in Lord of the Rings.

[Fyraltari]

To use a more well known example, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum weren't a threat to anyone but undoubtedly are the ones who had the most impact on the mission in Lord of the Rings.

Sam stabbed Shelob. Gondorian Knights and elf-lords have died to that thing. Beren freaking Erchamion, the greatest Hero of Men, failed to pierce her hide but Sam sent it crawling back to its lair bleeding quite possibly to death. Gollum routinely kills orcs, has travelled some of the most dangerous places of Middle-Earth completely alone, was tortured by Sauron in person and kept fighting after being slashed in the belly by a sword and thrown down a chasm. Even Frodo stabs wights and stands up to all nine Black Riders while dying of a witch-wound.

[hamishspence]

Sam stabbed Shelob. Gondorian Knights and elf-lords have died to that thing. Beren freaking Erchamion, the greatest Hero of Men, failed to pierce her hide but Sam sent it crawling back to its lair bleeding quite possibly to death.

It doesn't actually state that Beren had fought Shelob before - only that if he had, he wouldn't have been able to pierce her hide with strength alone:



But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Túrin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam's head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade point upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.

No such anguish had Shelob ever known, or dreamed of knowing, in all her long world of wickedness. Not the doughtiest soldier of old Gondor, nor the most savage Orc entrapped, had ever thus endured her, or set blade to her beloved flesh.

[Fyraltari]

Ah, I thought it did, which would make sense since Beren crossed the valley where she was born on his way to Doriath.

Still, Sam pierced one of her eyes. No one dealt her such a wound before.

Aragorn also commended his fighting skills back in Moria when he killed his first orc, saying that many warriors don’t fare as well as he did.

[Quartz]

That being said, I'm curious about Minrah's current level and how much xp she needs to gain to be a contributing to the Order.

Before her being Raised she had at least 5 cleric levels and at least 1 fighter level. This is discussed deeply in the Class & Level Geekery threads.

[Schroeswald]

Before her being Raised she had at least 5 cleric levels and at least 1 fighter level. This is discussed deeply in the Class & Level Geekery threads.

And for some likely stuff that is completely objective, she currently likely has 4-5 levels in cleric due to the raise dead, and likely has a few more than 1 level in fighter (I'd guess 2-3, maybe 4 levels).

[Peelee]

[text]

It's scary how quickly you can throw down relevant passages of just so many books, ya know.

[hamishspence]

I remember a snippet of it, and Google that snippet in the hope of finding a larger section which I can copy-paste.

Usually it works.

[Reboot]

And for some likely stuff that is completely objective, she currently likely has 4-5 levels in cleric due to the raise dead, and likely has a few more than 1 level in fighter (I'd guess 2-3, maybe 4 levels).

I'm betting she has at least 5-6 levels of Fighter, because she seems to say (in two separate strips) that she's a better Fighter than Cleric.

[I don't think she's of a level with the Order, but 10-11 seems a lot more likely than "5-6, mostly Cleric...]

[KatsOfLoathing]

She was also able to defeat the unnamed dwarf vampire seemingly on her lonesome. Said vampire is at least 9th level, and a fair bit more dangerous than her class level would suggest thanks to being a vampire. Assuming Minrah did indeed win a one-on-one fight, that'd put her level at least in the high single digits, if not low teens. Still a fair bit behind the Order, but not by a huge gap.

[Schroeswald]

I'm betting she has at least 5-6 levels of Fighter, because she seems to say (in two separate strips) that she's a better Fighter than Cleric.

[I don't think she's of a level with the Order, but 10-11 seems a lot more likely than "5-6, mostly Cleric...]

I shall point out that pre-death she was leveled 5-6 in cleric alone, I'd guess that currently she's about the same level as the OOTS was in strip one (so about 8, give or take one level), lower than the main Paladins, higher than Daigo and Kazumi, I'd guess that Bandana is the same level.

She was also able to defeat the unnamed dwarf vampire seemingly on her lonesome. Said vampire is at least 9th level, and a fair bit more dangerous than her class level would suggest thanks to being a vampire. Assuming Minrah did indeed win a one-on-one fight, that'd put her level at least in the high single digits, if not low teens. Still a fair bit behind the Order, but not by a huge gap.

Why would she defeat the vampire alone? There were like fifteen allies in the room with her and only 9 enemies (including the vampire), one of which was already knocked out when she started fighting, and then Logann seemed to get rid of 3 more all on his own, I imagine most of the guards were out quickly leaving quite a few left to help her fight Sandy.

[Quartz]

And for some likely stuff that is completely objective, she currently likely has 4-5 levels in cleric due to the raise dead, and likely has a few more than 1 level in fighter (I'd guess 2-3, maybe 4 levels).

The thing is, we don't know if the level she lost was a cleric level or a fighter level.

[Reboot]

The thing is, we don't know if the level she lost was a cleric level or a fighter level.

Yes we do. She essentially said she took the "guard" levels before she was a cleric, and the level lost is always the most recent. So she's down a cleric level, and if she lost more levels, it would keep being from the cleric pile until she ran out.

It's a similar situation to O'Chul - all his non-Paladin levels predate the Paladin ones.

[Quartz]

Yes we do. She essentially said she took the "guard" levels before she was a cleric, and the level lost is always the most recent.

Really? Got a cite for that? Maybe I'm misremembering from 1E/2E days but I thought you lost a level in the higher-levelled class and if levels in the two classes were equal you could choose.

[Jasdoif]

Yes we do. She essentially said she took the "guard" levels before she was a cleric, and the level lost is always the most recent.

Really? Got a cite for that?

Nothing authoritative.

When a character dies and comes back to life a level lower, are there any guidelines as to which level he must lose? Does it have to be the last level he gained? When he gains a level again later, can he choose a different class than he did originally? What about a 1st-level character (who instead loses a point of Constitution)? Can he begin with a new class completely?

The rules are silent on this issue, but it seems most logical if the character loses the class level he gained most recently. The same is true of any feats, skill ranks, or ability score adjustments gained due to the now-lost level. The character is under no obligation to make the same selection(s) when he next gains a level with XP.

A character who regains a lost level from restoration or a similar effect must regain the same class level (and other abilities) that he lost. In other words, you can’t use level drain and restoration to rebuild your character.

A 1st-level character doesn’t lose a class level, so he can’t change his existing class level.

[Ephemera]

Technically I’m not even 100% sure we can safely conclude that she never took another fighter level since she multiclassed to cleric...

[D.One]

To sum up what we have on Minrah's level:

• She cast Searing Light, so she was Cleric 5+ before death.
• She was a guard before being a cleric, so she had 1+ level(s) in some martial class before death.
• She said she was a great fighter. That leads to the conclusion that her martial "guard" class was Fighter, hence Fighter 1+.
• She died and was raised, thus losing a level. That level might be a Cleric one, or a Fighter one, so Cleric 4+ (since we didn't see her casting any 3rd level spell yet after being raised) and Fighter 1+ (because, even if she lost a Fighter level, she shouldn't lose her first one).

And that's how we have Fighter 1+/Cleric 4+.

That's the bare minimum we've been able to gather evidence for. The "great fighter" speech seems to imply she has more levels of fighter, and I fully agree with it, but we have no idea how many more, so 1+ still holds true.

She seemed unharmed (besides the blindness) right before being one-hit-killed by the Empowered Flame Strike, which means her Hp went from full to (at least) -10 with that attack. Hylgia's Empowered Flame Strike dealt something beetween 11 and 135, which means her full Hp should be equal or less than 125. From the previous strikes she took from Belkar, we know she has at least 53 Hp in full Hp, possibly more (more on the calculations here), which means her ull Hp is beetween 53 and 125, a fairly wide range, that can be achieved by various ways. Sorry. No additional clues here.

[Quartz]

She seemed unharmed (besides the blindness) right before being one-hit-killed by the Empowered Flame Strike, which means her Hp went from full to (at least) -10 with that attack. Hylgia's Empowered Flame Strike dealt something beetween 11 and 135, which means her full Hp should be equal or less than 125.

There's an exception to that. She could have failed a Massive Damage save. Any time you take 50+ HP in damage in one go you must make a DC 15 Fort save, and anyone can roll a 1.

[D.One]

There's an exception to that. She could have failed a Massive Damage save. Any time you take 50+ HP in damage in one go you must make a DC 15 Fort save, and anyone can roll a 1.

That's right, but, as with the wide Hp range, this just tells us that Hp won't be of much help to pin down her level.

[EyethatBinds]

There's an exception to that. She could have failed a Massive Damage save. Any time you take 50+ HP in damage in one go you must make a DC 15 Fort save, and anyone can roll a 1.

Massive damage is an optional rule.

[D.One]

Massive damage is an optional rule.

Even so, for this analysis, it adds uncertainty to an already uncertain scenario.