So how is Batwoman?

[Telonius]

One episode in (missed the latest, will probably catch it On-Demand), and it's kinda okay-meh so far. They're pretty clearly aiming for it to be the broody one now that Arrow's ending.

I'm not that concerned with the "taking itself overly seriously" thing. That's kind of implicit in any kind of Bat-person story that isn't starring Adam West. Not terrible for a one-episode origin story. Gives some justification for who she is and why she's able to fight. (Apparently 5 years is the standard amount of time it takes to train somebody to have superhero-level combat moves). I'm at least mildly interested in the two good guys (Batwoman and Luke) and want to see where they're taking the story.

The one place the episode really fell flat for me was in the villain. Rachel Skarsten really did not sell me on the character. The last time I saw a Lewis Carroll-based villain was Benedict Samuel as Jervis Tetch in Gotham. The first episode did not come close to measuring up to that. For a character like that, you need just the right mix of crazy/threatening and crazy/goofy. She went with a mix of superiority and randomness, and it didn't come off well. I really hope it improves over the next few episodes. The villain makes the hero, and this one needs to step up.

possibly Disenchanted.

Second season got a lot better than first. Not up to "good" yet, but it's pointed in the right direction.

[Psyren]

Second season got a lot better than first. Not up to "good" yet, but it's pointed in the right direction.

So I've heard... but man, starting off S2 longing for more Elfo was not exactly hooking me. So I put it back on the shelf after watching the debut episode.

[Rynjin]

Aggregators are still too easy to game, so whatever they say need to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

Ratings-wise, the premiere pulled a 1.8 (likely to be a season high for the CW), and even the repeats were still above 1.0. That's better than Black Lightning did, and far better than Legends.

That's a shame, given how legitimately amazing Black Lightning is (I quite honestly often forget it's on the CW, it's so separate from the usual formula and squeaky-clean-ness from them) and how fun and corny-in-a-good-way Legends is (it is by far the most true to the comics, in spirit anyway, of the CW shows).

I guess anything with Bat in front of it is bound to draw droves of viewers no matter the quality, but still.

[Bartmanhomer]

Spoiler: My Thoughts On Batwoman.

Show

I really enjoy the first two episodes so far. The first episode show her past and origins of how she was rescued by Batman as a child. Then the second episode that she reunited with her dead sister but she turn evil. It's a good show so far. I'll give it 4 out of 5 stars.

[Lemmy]

Apparently the ratings fell hard in the 2nd episode... If this is the work of the mythological "trolls" that Hollywood loves to blame, then I guess pretty much all of the audience is living under a bridge.

EDIT: It seems Supergirl got its lowest rating too. Apparently Batwoman ep2 was so bad it made people downright give up on the channel. Then again, IIRC, Supergirl and LoT both have been losing audience for a while now, so maybe it was just coincidence.

[Rynjin]

I gave up on SG halfway through the last season, I just couldn't take how hamfisted the political commentary was.

Make it actually emotionally impactful or SOMETHING.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I gave up on SG halfway through the last season, I just couldn't take how hamfisted the political commentary was.

Make it actually emotionally impactful or SOMETHING.

Is that season on Netflix yet? I HAVE TO see what passes for hamfisted now.

Plus, do Supergirl and Captain Marvel, two similar attractive blondes share a last name? Coincidence?

[Rynjin]

Is that season on Netflix yet? I HAVE TO see what passes for hamfisted now.

Yeah, it's the one currently on Netflix.

The villain du jour is a member of a "humanity first" type group, with a side dish of Manchester Black; I gave up around the point he turned "villainous".

Comparing/contrasting the way Black Lightning and even Legends handles social issues vs Supergirl is a nightmarish comparison for the latter. Legends is as subtle as a brick to the head too, but it's about stuff that directly affects the characters and makes sense for them, and Black Lightning is almost PAINFULLY real sometimes.

Supergirl crying about how weak and vulnerable she is always makes me roll my eyes, and the way the show bends over backwards to make everybody admit "wrongdoing" to her and Lena (ESPECIALLY Lena in this season, the way James goes out of his way to do mental gymnastics trying to justify Lena always being right in any dispute they have gets VERY frustrating) made me drop it as well.

[Talakeal]

Plus, do Supergirl and Captain Marvel, two similar attractive blondes share a last name? Coincidence?

Not at all.

Carol also sounds a lot like Kara El.

[Kitten Champion]

Is that season on Netflix yet? I HAVE TO see what passes for hamfisted now.

Well, they advertised the last Supergirl season here with images of her landing in front of what looked like the White House and planting a giant American flag with a monologue about her being an illegal alien.

Plus, do Supergirl and Captain Marvel, two similar attractive blondes share a last name? Coincidence?

Eh, it was probably intended as an homage, maybe.

Okay, first thing to understand about Captain Marvel - the original 60's Mar-Vell - the whole comic was more or less a Cold War take on Superman. In stead of being the last son of a distant planet who fights for the public good while masking himself as a reporter, Mar-Vell was a spy for a malevolent space empire who planted himself covertly into the centre of the American space program that gets mistaken for a Superhero while carrying out duties for the Kree military -- it was paranoid twist on the Superman formula. Due to lack of financial success Mar-Vell was revamped several times until they ultimately cancelled his series in the late 70's.

Which brings us to Carol Danvers. Carol wasn't created to be Ms. Marvel, that came about a decade later when Marvel wanted a feminist Superhero - along with creating distaff counter-parts for IP reasons like with She-Hulk and Spider-Woman - Danvers was initially designed as a low-key persistent antagonist for Captain Marvel. She was working as security for NASA while he was disguising himself as Walter Lawson, rocket scientist.

So she's kind of like Lois Lane - well, versions of Lois Lane where she's a hard-nosed reporter and doesn't know who Superman is - insofar as she's a constant threat to his secret identity and operations on Earth. It's not especially romantic, because while he kind of admires her... he also treats her like crap. Lots of gas-lighting and insults going her way, mostly framed as defensiveness on his part.

This put her in a rare place, comic-wise. She wasn't a disposable love-interest (Incidently, Mar-Vell's main love interest got killed by his nemesis, Yon-Rogg, as part of a depressing love-triangle), she had a non-traditional career especially for a woman, and was going to disappear entirely without a comic to appear in when Captain Marvel was cut. So, making her into Ms. Marvel (with the Ms part being quite significant politically at the time) makes sense in context. They then immediately moved her to New York and put her to work in the Daily Bugle, because it was an easy way of giving her a supporting cast.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Apparently the ratings fell hard in the 2nd episode.

Only to a 1.4, still head and shoulders above most everything else on CW.

It seems Supergirl got its lowest rating too.

Not even close. SG pulled a .75 about halfway through the second season (the first on CW). This week was a .97, which is about where they were most of last season.

[Lemmy]

Only to a 1.4, still head and shoulders above most everything else on CW.

I thinm this speaks more ill of CW than it speaks well of Batwoman...

[random11]

It's a CW show.
At this point in time, is there any need to say more?

I enjoyed Arrow when it started, and since it was fresh at the time, I liked the dark tone.
But then it became "dark for the sake of being dark" with everything that will later become a CW cliche.

I enjoyed Flash when it started, until that too fell into the same hole.

Super-girl had a good start with some funny/cringe moments that I could still enjoy, then came the political sledgehammer season.

The only exceptions so far are Black lightning that still manages to do family drama right, and Legends which is just people having fun on the set.

So when the first episode of Batwoman arrived, all I could see is "just another CW show"
Maybe if it was the first or second series I would have been more optimistic, but fooled me once shame on you, fooled me four times and I just give up on hope.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think this speaks more ill of CW than it speaks well of Batwoman...

They'd need more market penetration before they can get higher. It's easier to find their shows with their app than on cable. But the app doesn't give you Nielsen numbers.

Which is something the other networks are learning, as many of their shows are down into the 2s and 3s. Only strong exception? Live events like sports and reality competition shows like The Voice and Masked Singer. And streaming will eat into those as well.

So to sum up, this is a confusing time for the traditional metrics.

[Aotrs Commander]

I gave up on SG halfway through the last season, I just couldn't take how hamfisted the political commentary was.

Yeah, I'll admit that is was getting pretty terrible - neither me nor Mum (ww watch it together) were very struck.

When, however, FINALLY the Russian Supergirl plot kicked in in the back half and Lex Luthor showed up, it got very much better again, more like what I expect out of it. It was kind of a last-minute save, but for me, it was enough. (Lex was GREAT.)

Plus, whatever else happens, I do love the Arrowverse's crossovers (even if I don't watch any of the other series). A boatload of superheroes fighting Alternate Universe Nazis was a better Justice League move than Justice League, and last year's was cracking too. So there's no freakin' way I'd miss seeing the next one, which looks like it might be a Crisis sort of event, because that ought to be so cool. (I mean, I'm really not that hard to please within simple boundaries, I DID actually enjoy Justice League the movie for what it was, and it's the only one of two DC movies of the current crop I've thus seen.)

[Deja Who?]

The fact that this or that show is terrible may be (and Batwoman is average) but to ignore or argue that there aren’t hundreds of trolls who love nothing more than to downvote, negatively review or other wise do everything in their power to ruin and basically **** on anything with a female lead is stupid or blind.

[random11]

The fact that this or that show is terrible may be (and Batwoman is average) but to ignore or argue that there aren’t hundreds of trolls who love nothing more than to downvote, negatively review or other wise do everything in their power to ruin and basically **** on anything with a female lead is stupid or blind.

Which is why it is best to ignore generic scores, and consider reviews that tell you WHY it's good or bad.

Even without the trolls, you might like something that someone else hates.

[Lemmy]

The fact that this or that show is terrible may be (and Batwoman is average) but to ignore or argue that there aren’t hundreds of trolls who love nothing more than to downvote, negatively review or other wise do everything in their power to ruin and basically **** on anything with a female lead is stupid or blind.

I never said it doesn't happen. It does. Every movie/game/whatever has its share of gratuitous haters with dumb reasons. But it's blown waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion. And used as an excuse for the failure/bad reviews of every crappy production with a female lead. And for every one of these trolls, there's also someone who blindly praises those productions.

WW mysteriously didn't have to deal with these "trolls" in any significant amount... Neither did Alita. But whenever someone points out a flaw in a female character or female-lead story, access media and Hollywood jump at the opportunity to have them immediately labeled "sexist incel/trolls".

Point out that Rey is a Mary Sue? Troll/Incel. Point out that Brie Larson's acting is pretty wooden in Captain Marvel? Troll/Incel. Criticize The Last Jedi? Troll/Incel. Give a negative review to the cringe-fest that is BW? What a surprise! Troll/Incel...

It's almost like review media and Hollywood had a vested interest in misrepresenting and discrediting anyone who says anything negative about their movies... And people keep falling for that.

[Deja Who?]

WW certainly did have to deal with it before it came out. WW was just so much better than other DC movies of the time after it came out that people couldn’t deny it. I don’t think it’s blown much out of proportion honestly. On top of the outright trolls I’ve found that even folks who normally would forgive small “stupid” things or characters acting dumb in a show will be much more critical of those small elements in a female lead show or movie. Even if they’ve taken great pains to make it basically the same. I can understand not liking a retread but they don’t go after that they go after nitpicks that would just be glossed over normally. And it’s awful that we’ll never have a female lead movie that isn’t a retread because a lot of people will refuse to watch it out of spite and that frightens people that make movies. But I’d say you’re wrong if you don’t think it’s a significant amount.

[Androgeus]

Neither did Alita.

Wasn’t Alita championed by the anti-SJW crowd against Captain Marvel and Brie Larson? Not saying it caused a big hubbub, but still.

[JadedDM]

Wasn’t Alita championed by the anti-SJW crowd against Captain Marvel and Brie Larson? Not saying it caused a big hubbub, but still.

Yes, they tried using it as a shield from criticism by supporting it to 'prove' they aren't really sexist, because how could they be if they were supporting a female led movie?

[Deja Who?]

Ugh I remember the mocking petition after Brie Larson said that the movies should be or were getting more progressive that she should be replaced with a disabled black Muslim trans woman or something. They never get any new material. But something tells me they still aren’t gonna be pleased when Miss Marvel comes out.

[JadedDM]

Just wait and see what happens when we finally get that A-Force movie everyone's (including the MCU actresses themselves) has been clamoring for.

[Dienekes]

Yes, they tried using it as a shield from criticism by supporting it to 'prove' they aren't really sexist, because how could they be if they were supporting a female led movie?

At the risk of sounding like an ass. Who's they? Like, I'm willing (and kinda want) to believe there's some big conspiracy of disgruntled men out there who get their jolly's by review bombing things. I get that there are a lot of weird gender divide things going on currently for some stupid reason. Hell, I know there was a loud section of the internet who declared Furiosa a Mary Sue, which to me is insane since she fails and struggles so much in that movie and requires help to do just about everything.

But I find it really weird that a mass of anonymous people would unite together to support something against their biases to show they're not sexist. Because who are they going to fool? No one knows who they are. They're anonymous. The smokescreen to protect them from criticism is pointless if your anonymity already does that. Like where is this conspiracy located? Who decides which female led movies the mass of incels rally for or against?

[JadedDM]

I wouldn't call it a conspiracy...it's more like an angry mob. They convene mostly on 4chan and Reddit, where they come up with these ridiculous 'ops' and also make up their own conspiracy theories. Remember when they were insisting that Disney was buying up all the tickets to Captain Marvel to make it look like it was more popular than it actually was? It was easier for them to believe that Disney likes to hemorrhage money than that the movie was actually popular. They also were the ones who kept insisting that Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson were going to be fired because The Last Jedi did so poorly (it didn't, and they weren't), swore up and down that the cast and director of the recent Ghostbusters outright said anyone who disliked their movie was sexist (they didn't), actually got James Gunn fired from Marvel (although he came back), and a bunch of other nonsense, as well. It's like they think if they repeat lies enough times, they will magically become true.

Who are they hoping to fool? Well, probably people who don't do any research and just take the word of anonymous strangers on the internet. Some of them actually believe the stuff, too, though. I think they have to. Otherwise they would have to admit to themselves that Hollywood keeps making these movies with women and people of color in the leads because they sell better than ones with all white male leads, and that's not something they want to accept, so they come up with any kind of wacky conspiracy they can to explain it.

And why the smokescreen? Credibility for internet arguments. They know if they say these films are bad because they have women or poc in them, they'll be dismissed as sexist and racist. So they will try and find any excuse they can to explain why these movies are bad. Even if they have to make stuff up whole cloth.

[Ranxerox]

At the risk of sounding like an ass. Who's they? Like, I'm willing (and kinda want) to believe there's some big conspiracy of disgruntled men out there who get their jolly's by review bombing things. I get that there are a lot of weird gender divide things going on currently for some stupid reason. Hell, I know there was a loud section of the internet who declared Furiosa a Mary Sue, which to me is insane since she fails and struggles so much in that movie and requires help to do just about everything.

But I find it really weird that a mass of anonymous people would unite together to support something against their biases to show they're not sexist. Because who are they going to fool? No one knows who they are. They're anonymous. The smokescreen to protect them from criticism is pointless if your anonymity already does that. Like where is this conspiracy located? Who decides which female led movies the mass of incels rally for or against?

Who decides? In the case of Alita: Battle Angel, Jack Posobiec decided.

Captain Marvel was deigned “pandering SJW crap” by alt-right celebrity Jack Posobiec, leading him to popularise a previously under-the-radar alt-right campaign known as the #AlitaChallenge to rally support for Captain Marvel’s apparently apolitical, female-led rival.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8984711.html

[Deja Who?]

And often the lies they spread do end up repeated and regurgitated as fact by the general masses

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's the point of bots. They repeat things until it becomes a "everybody knows" fallacy.

[Rynjin]

Another example is this little gem from earlier:



See, it's easier for him to believe that everyone who gives this show a good review is just doing so out of fear of being called a bigot than it is to believe they actually liked it.

I mean, the precise reverse is equally as likely to be true. "It's easier for you to believe that everyone who gives this show a bad review is an incel troll than it is to believe they didn't actually like it".

Nobody knows, so why make sweeping assertions about other peoples' character based on baseless conjecture?

[Zalabim]

I usually just jump to insulting their taste, education, or ability to suspend disbelief, though I rarely have reason to actually share these assumptions.