Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

[zfs]

It's certainly better than what the rogue, scout, or ninja is doing, and I think most people would at least consider them competent in that regard.

Scout gets Improved Skirmish at that level, which means they're only a bit behind when they can trigger it - likely 1d8 + 4d6 + whatever you're getting from Str or weapon enhancements. Having to hit regular AC and relying on precision damage means it will have lower DPR, but they also likely have Rapid Shot, so whenever you can pull that off (probably one fight a day with Travel Devotion), you should pull ahead a bit (except against precision immune enemies, of course). Then in two levels you get your first iterative - again, full attack with rapid shot means your expected # of hits will be lower, but the potential is there for 3d8 + 12d6.

[Troacctid]

Question for the bench:

You're playing a party of a Druid, Wizard, Cleric and Shaman. The DM has you choose a local NPC, built and optimized to PC standards, to round out the party because the module's meant for 6 players. The available NPCs are a Marshal, a Spellthief and a Fighter. Which do you take with you? Does it depend on the party level?

Spellthief, not close, because the other two are just not as interesting to play. It's also more powerful, of course.

[AnimeTheCat]

Scout gets Improved Skirmish at that level, which means they're only a bit behind when they can trigger it - likely 1d8 + 4d6 + whatever you're getting from Str or weapon enhancements. Having to hit regular AC and relying on precision damage means it will have lower DPR, but they also likely have Rapid Shot, so whenever you can pull that off (probably one fight a day with Travel Devotion), you should pull ahead a bit (except against precision immune enemies, of course). Then in two levels you get your first iterative - again, full attack with rapid shot means your expected # of hits will be lower, but the potential is there for 3d8 + 12d6.

Where are you getting the d8 from? Scouts dont get longbow proficiency, so you would have to use a feat or play a race that gets it. Or you're melee and you're using a heavy mace or something, but talking about rapid shot leads me to believe you're not talking melee. It's negligible damage difference, but it is there.

[zfs]

Where are you getting the d8 from? Scouts dont get longbow proficiency, so you would have to use a feat or play a race that gets it. Or you're melee and you're using a heavy mace or something, but talking about rapid shot leads me to believe you're not talking melee. It's negligible damage difference, but it is there.

Whoops - yeah, when I personally played a Scout I was a Raptoran so I used a footbow. So it's an even closer comparison - 5d6 + probably 1 or 2 if you're using a composite shortbow.

[Efrate]

I am having a hard time with binder. I want it to be 3 and it does get there, but like there are a few levels before you get your second bind that are pretty awful. I am not sure if that drops it enough to get a 4. 3.75 for now.

[Lans]

I am having a hard time with binder. I want it to be 3 and it does get there, but like there are a few levels before you get your second bind that are pretty awful. I am not sure if that drops it enough to get a 4. 3.75 for now.

Honestly I think their is a scaling issue with some classes where the tier that they are in changes. Truenamer becomes a hard 2 when it hits level 20, Shadow caster starts at a low 5 and probably hits a low 3 by the time it hits 20.

Evocation is not a terrible school of magic. It's one of the most efficient damage delivery systems in the game. And being a touch attack meaningfully increases effective DPR—5d6 vs. touch is likely to be better than 6d6 vs. normal AC. Also, 1d6 per level is a baseline for strikers, not supports. Bards aren't doing that much, clerics probably aren't doing that much, etc.

And other skills matter too—do social skills not count? Knowledges? There are multiple skill-related niches. Incarnates do have perception soulmelds, btw.

I consider that as the baseline for just being competent in that area. Past the lower levels I don't think the Incarnate fits the -very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more - and I think it falls a hair short on the -competent at solving nearly all problems- Not having a competence in combat is a really big sticking point for me. It doesn't deal damage, I don't think it has any good debuffs, it doesn't have the skills to be a scout.

[Sutr]

Detect magic is effectively an additional invocation for the warlock, and while the shapeshifting and ice fog invocations are good, the warlock list is better overall. While the laser doesn't deal damage on a miss unless you take a blast shape, it's also more likely to hit vs. touch. The magic item abilities make up for the skill points. It's a wash.

Its a wash for you, I remain thoroughly unconvinced that their is no difference. Which is why I like this thread I can still vote.

On the binder I think some classes could just use an asterisk to denote abrupt changes. There are enough of them shadowcaster, mystic ranger, healer binder all fit the bill.

[pabelfly]

On the binder I think some classes could just use an asterisk to denote abrupt changes. There are enough of them shadowcaster, mystic ranger, healer binder all fit the bill.

I think this is better mentioned in individual class writeups. Tiers are only a general starting point, after all.

[Sutr]

I think this is better mentioned in individual class writeups. Tiers are only a general starting point, after all.

Maybe, so I've seen quite a few games use JaronK's suggestion for partial gestalt. This is more accurate in my opinion than his, but if we were to use that suggestion to help balance. It could be helpful to have a quick, hey, if your campaign goes from 3-7 maybe binder can gestalt its kinda lame at those levels, or mystic ranger really shouldn't be able to.

[LordCharlemagne]

I consider that as the baseline for just being competent in that area. Past the lower levels I don't think the Incarnate fits the -very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more - and I think it falls a hair short on the -competent at solving nearly all problems- Not having a competence in combat is a really big sticking point for me. It doesn't deal damage, I don't think it has any good debuffs, it doesn't have the skills to be a scout.

The Incarnate not having enough skills to function as a scout or as an any other role which can be performed by skills shows a serious lack of understanding about the Incarnate. If there is one thing the incarnate is not missing, it is skills. The Incarnate has enough skill boosters built into the class to be only shortly behind dedicated skill monkey at higher character levels in their bonus, and that is assuming the Incarnate doesn't CC any skills, which Incarnates can do if they so choose. All of this is without getting into the bonuses or abilities the Incarnate can get from binding their soulmelds to a chakra. And this is all doable without investing any of your permanent resources into these. (Albeit, move silently is one of the few melds Incarnate has to pick up with a feat from off of the totemist list, such as through worg pelt or Kruthick claws if they want to boost it really high).

Also, the Incarnate can deal solid damage. At low levels, binds are powerful attacks or you can get a souped up weapon off of incarnate weapon easily that puts you ahead of the curve at lower levels (And this requires no feats or ability scores to really do). Starting at mid levels and at high levels, unless you are super focused LN or NE Incarnate, your damage will fall behind others. However, by this time, you'll have build be operational and will be doing whatever you want it to do. You'll have a character build and be able to swap stuff around to fill niches or have special abilites that can be useful in any given meeting.

Sure, any role will a tier 4 or 5 class can fill will probably be able to do it better than the incarnate, but while that class will have to invest it skills and feats to do it and will have class features that aid with it, the Incarnate can just casually fill it by changing their melds and binds. The ability to be competent at something for near 0 investment is something no tier 4 or 5 class can really match.

[Troacctid]

Maybe, so I've seen quite a few games use JaronK's suggestion for partial gestalt. This is more accurate in my opinion than his, but if we were to use that suggestion to help balance. It could be helpful to have a quick, hey, if your campaign goes from 3-7 maybe binder can gestalt its kinda lame at those levels, or mystic ranger really shouldn't be able to.

That's the whole point of the explanations: to show why classes are ranked how they're ranked and promote a more nuanced understanding of inter-class balance.

Sure, any role will a tier 4 or 5 class can fill will probably be able to do it better than the incarnate, but while that class will have to invest it skills and feats to do it and will have class features that aid with it, the Incarnate can just casually fill it by changing their melds and binds. The ability to be competent at something for near 0 investment is something no tier 4 or 5 class can really match.

In the original incarnate thread, didn't we have this same argument? Someone was saying that the incarnate does crappy damage compared to a rogue because the rogue just needs to buy like a 12th level item and take specific feats to optimize thrown weapons and use consumables in every encounter, and then pow, look at these numbers, your incarnate who has spent zero build resources can't compete with this.

[Bucky]

How are the PCs specc'ed?

Let's handwave the issue and say the DM lets you all rebuild after choosing the NPC companion.

Spellthief, not close, because the other two are just not as interesting to play. It's also more powerful, of course.

The point of making the character an NPC in that question was to factor away the "interesting to play" aspect; here, any time spent managing the NPC is time not spent playing your own character.


The meta-question is, of course, "which currently-T4 and T5 classes can actually pull weight as the fifth wheel of a T1 party, and does that imply they should be tiered higher?"

[Efrate]

No because while spellthief is an action multiplier for a caster party if They work together, on its own it's significantly less impressive. T1s do not need help. Looking around t3 it gets more interesting

[Gnaeus]

I’m a little bit afraid that the voting system, as it continues, is introducing a bit of systemic bias in the form of pushing borderline classes up a tier.

I’m not sure how to solve but just to clarify what I mean. Classes are tiered based on equivalent optimization. So, let’s say that my favorite class is monk, or truenamer, or knight, or marshall. Their playstyle complements mine and I know all the tricks. And legitimately, because as JaronK always said varying optimization can easily shift a tier. So anyway I know all the cool things my favorite class can do, so probably when I play that class it is a tier higher than when I play another class of that tier. Because I’ve playtested it and read guides and searched for tricks and now I see the way I play that class as representative. But I’m not necessarily fairly grading it compared to other classes of that tier or the next tier up or down that aren’t my favorite class.

In general voting that should more or less cancel out. Many of us voted on most classes. Or at least most classes with which we are reasonably well acquainted (like, personally I didn’t vote on incarna classes because no one ever played them in a game I was in, but I probably voted on most or all others). So assuming (which isn’t probably true) a more or less equal favored class distribution you will, (maybe) get every class ranked a bit above where it should be but comparatively the numbers should be relevant.

So then once you’ve posted everything, the only new votes are likely to be outliers. No one is going to come in and say “yes I agree knight is tier 5. Add my vote.” But if knight is my favorite class I may well see post, get offended, and jump in with a vote for Knight as T4. Especially with the border cases I would predict slow walks toward higher tiers. Just something to watch for and factor in when we compare what the results mean.

[pabelfly]

Maybe, so I've seen quite a few games use JaronK's suggestion for partial gestalt. This is more accurate in my opinion than his, but if we were to use that suggestion to help balance. It could be helpful to have a quick, hey, if your campaign goes from 3-7 maybe binder can gestalt its kinda lame at those levels, or mystic ranger really shouldn't be able to.

Tiers are the broadest of generalizations. A DM should be looking at the individual character design and optimization in much more detail than what such a broad overview of the entire 3.5 system can allow.

[Lans]

The Incarnate not having enough skills to function as a scout or as an any other role which can be performed by skills shows a serious lack of understanding about the Incarnate. If there is one thing the incarnate is not missing, it is skills. The Incarnate has enough skill boosters built into the class to be only shortly behind dedicated skill monkey at higher character levels in their bonus, and that is assuming the Incarnate doesn't CC any skills, which Incarnates can do if they so choose. All of this is without getting into the bonuses or abilities the Incarnate can get from binding their soulmelds to a chakra. And this is all doable without investing any of your permanent resources into these. (Albeit, move silently is one of the few melds Incarnate has to pick up with a feat from off of the totemist list, such as through worg pelt or Kruthick claws if they want to boost it really high).

In order to be an effective scout you need hide, move silently, search, spot, listen, and disable device. At level 6 you have 4 soulmelds, and 6 points of essentia. You can get 1 above or below what a stealth character would have from its skills, depending on whether your meld starts with +2 or 4, but you only have 6 essentia so you can only max 2 of them, 3 if you choose an incarnum race and grab bonus essentia. You fall behind every level you go up till hit 12 where your behind 3-5 points or

Also, the Incarnate can deal solid damage. At low levels, binds are powerful attacks or you can get a souped up weapon off of incarnate weapon easily that puts you ahead of the curve at lower levels (And this requires no feats or ability scores to really do). Starting at mid levels and at high levels, unless you are super focused LN or NE Incarnate, your damage will fall behind others. However, by this time, you'll have build be operational and will be doing whatever you want it to do. You'll have a character build and be able to swap stuff around to fill niches or have special abilites that can be useful in any given meeting.

Incarnates are fine at low levels, but as they level up they fall behind.

[Troacctid]

In order to be an effective scout you need hide, move silently, search, spot, listen, and disable device.

Since when are Search and Disable Device needed for scouting? Those are trapfinding skills. That's not the same thing.

The Niche Ranking System includes six skill-based niches: Trapfinder, Thief, Scout, Sage, Party Face, and Curiosity. Incarnates have soulmelds that help with four of the six.

[Gnaeus]

Since when are Search and Disable Device needed for scouting? Those are trapfinding skills. That's not the same thing.

If you are sneaking down the hall, and you miss the alarm trap, your scouting was a failure and your move silently was worthless. And of course if the trap kills you you just die.

[Troacctid]

What if there are guards at the gate demanding ID? Are Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery scouting skills too? And you might have to sneak past guard dogs, so maybe we better add Handle Animal while we're at it. And Open Lock, of course, because you can't scout past a locked door. Oh, and Spellcraft, because knowing about magical threats is important too. Add all Knowledges in order to identify any monsters you spot, maybe some Appraise to tell if the treasure is valuable...etc. Pretty soon you need every skill to be a scout.

[zfs]

I’m a little bit afraid that the voting system, as it continues, is introducing a bit of systemic bias in the form of pushing borderline classes up a tier.

I’m not sure how to solve but just to clarify what I mean. Classes are tiered based on equivalent optimization. So, let’s say that my favorite class is monk, or truenamer, or knight, or marshall. Their playstyle complements mine and I know all the tricks. And legitimately, because as JaronK always said varying optimization can easily shift a tier. So anyway I know all the cool things my favorite class can do, so probably when I play that class it is a tier higher than when I play another class of that tier. Because I’ve playtested it and read guides and searched for tricks and now I see the way I play that class as representative. But I’m not necessarily fairly grading it compared to other classes of that tier or the next tier up or down that aren’t my favorite class.

In general voting that should more or less cancel out. Many of us voted on most classes. Or at least most classes with which we are reasonably well acquainted (like, personally I didn’t vote on incarna classes because no one ever played them in a game I was in, but I probably voted on most or all others). So assuming (which isn’t probably true) a more or less equal favored class distribution you will, (maybe) get every class ranked a bit above where it should be but comparatively the numbers should be relevant.

So then once you’ve posted everything, the only new votes are likely to be outliers. No one is going to come in and say “yes I agree knight is tier 5. Add my vote.” But if knight is my favorite class I may well see post, get offended, and jump in with a vote for Knight as T4. Especially with the border cases I would predict slow walks toward higher tiers. Just something to watch for and factor in when we compare what the results mean.

But as a counterpoint, the classes at the margins are the ones where new votes are more important - I missed voting on Druid and Cleric, but does it help the system to add another Tier 1 vote to both? Meanwhile, lots of those classes that most people don't care about got very few votes. Sohei had 5 votes before I contributed mine - is 5 votes really enough to say its a community consensus?

[Gnaeus]

What if there are guards at the gate demanding ID? Are Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery scouting skills too? And you might have to sneak past guard dogs, so maybe we better add Handle Animal while we're at it. And Open Lock, of course, because you can't scout past a locked door. Oh, and Spellcraft, because knowing about magical threats is important too. Add all Knowledges in order to identify any monsters you spot, maybe some Appraise to tell if the treasure is valuable...etc. Pretty soon you need every skill to be a scout.

Yeah, some of those ARE important. But falling into traps both jeopardize your mission and your life. Disable might not be necessary but search/trap finding are musts if you want to be a decent scout. You can scout until you reach the locked door. You can’t scout until you reach the trap you can’t detect. But yes, all that is why, for example, PF skill consolidation helps rogues be better scouts.

[Gnaeus]

But as a counterpoint, the classes at the margins are the ones where new votes are more important - I missed voting on Druid and Cleric, but does it help the system to add another Tier 1 vote to both? Meanwhile, lots of those classes that most people don't care about got very few votes. Sohei had 5 votes before I contributed mine - is 5 votes really enough to say its a community consensus?

It might be a consensus of people who are familiar with Sohei. I agree 5 votes doesn’t seem like a very solid rating but that’s a different problem. But the point is that I think you will get skewed results if the only people voting are those who disagree with placement.

[zfs]

It might be a consensus of people who are familiar with Sohei. I agree 5 votes doesn’t seem like a very solid rating but that’s a different problem. But the point is that I think you will get skewed results if the only people voting are those who disagree with placement.

Sure, but if people disagree with the tier creep they can vote to counter it. I'll put it this way - I'd rather have Sohei at Tier 5 with 20 votes than Tier 4 with 7 votes.

[LordCharlemagne]

In order to be an effective scout you need hide, move silently, search, spot, listen, and disable device. At level 6 you have 4 soulmelds, and 6 points of essentia. You can get 1 above or below what a stealth character would have from its skills, depending on whether your meld starts with +2 or 4, but you only have 6 essentia so you can only max 2 of them, 3 if you choose an incarnum race and grab bonus essentia. You fall behind every level you go up till hit 12 where your behind 3-5 points or


Incarnates are fine at low levels, but as they level up they fall behind.

If you need 6 skills maxed out to be an effective scout, then all of the familiars or animal companion guides that say X is a good familiar/animal companion for scouting must be lying through their teeth. Disable device on a scout? Disabling a trap takes 2d4 rounds. I don't know about you, but remaining in place for 2d4 rounds while sneaking around where traps would be probably means your going to fail at the whole not getting caught thing (and let's not even talk about heavily trapped areas where there is more than one trap). Not to mention that if your DM throws magic traps at you, unless you have trapfinding (which Incarnates can pick up through a chakra bind if one so chooses), you're just outta luck, on finding them & disabling them. Also, being behind only 1 skill point for over 10 levels is pretty fine for 0 investment. If you really want to fill the role to the maximum, you can also sink skill points into it. Incarnates are pretty fine with CC skills.

And one can argue search isn't necessary for a scout, seeing as there is the whole full-round action to search a 5 foot square, which means to scout with the skill will take actual minutes to do it. Granted, I've never seen a DM be this strict with the Search skill, but if your goal as a scout is to go in and gather information, if you have to spend several minutes bumming around searching every nook and cranny, then as a whole stealth isn't really necessary to explore in the situation.

But in serious, according to that logic, you need 6 skills as class skills (+being maxed out) + a specific class feature found on less than a dozen classes to be an effective party scout.


Also, can you give examples of the Incarnate falling behind? I'm interesting to see how, as you've stated several times it to be true but haven't actually stated how.

Also, seeing as we've been talking about the incarnate number wise, there is a saved thread on ENWorld "Incarnate by the numbers" that breaks down the Incarnate by the numbers. (I tried to link it, but the forum had a hissy fit).

[Gnaeus]

If you need 6 skills maxed out to be an effective scout, then all of the familiars or animal companion guides that say X is a good familiar/animal companion for scouting must be lying through their teeth. Disable device on a scout? Disabling a trap takes 2d4 rounds. I don't know about you, but remaining in place for 2d4 rounds while sneaking around where traps would be probably means your going to fail at the whole not getting caught thing (and let's not even talk about heavily trapped areas where there is more than one trap). Not to mention that if your DM throws magic traps at you, unless you have trapfinding (which Incarnates can pick up through a chakra bind if one so chooses), you're just outta luck, on finding them & disabling them..

Again, disabling is less important than spotting. But yes, I’ll agree that trapfinding is very important to a good scout.

The reason Familiars make good scouts is that most traps won’t get set off by a tiny creature, especially a flier, and if the enemy finds a rat or a bat in most environments it doesn’t give away your party.

[Sutr]

Tiers are the broadest of generalizations. A DM should be looking at the individual character design and optimization in much more detail than what such a broad overview of the entire 3.5 system can allow.

When used that way they become more of a scaffolding for the conversation about power levels. Its no big deal, I'll probably just copy the original post and add some asterisks if I decide to run that game. Also reverse the numbers for ease of reference.

I’m a little bit afraid that the voting system, as it continues, is introducing a bit of systemic bias in the form of pushing borderline classes up a tier.


I’m not sure how to solve but just to clarify what I mean. Classes are tiered based on equivalent optimization. So, let’s say that my favorite class is monk, or truenamer, or knight, or marshall. Their playstyle complements mine and I know all the tricks. And legitimately, because as JaronK always said varying optimization can easily shift a tier. So anyway I know all the cool things my favorite class can do, so probably when I play that class it is a tier higher than when I play another class of that tier. Because I’ve playtested it and read guides and searched for tricks and now I see the way I play that class as representative. But I’m not necessarily fairly grading it compared to other classes of that tier or the next tier up or down that aren’t my favorite class.
In general voting that should more or less cancel out. Many of us voted on most classes. Or at least most classes with which we are reasonably well acquainted (like, personally I didn’t vote on incarna classes because no one ever played them in a game I was in, but I probably voted on most or all others). So assuming (which isn’t probably true) a more or less equal favored class distribution you will, (maybe) get every class ranked a bit above where it should be but comparatively the numbers should be relevant.

So then once you’ve posted everything, the only new votes are likely to be outliers. No one is going to come in and say “yes I agree knight is tier 5. Add my vote.” But if knight is my favorite class I may well see post, get offended, and jump in with a vote for Knight as T4. Especially with the border cases I would predict slow walks toward higher tiers. Just something to watch for and factor in when we compare what the results mean.

Other problems also exist people could have bias based on JaronK's system. Wouldn't people also occasionally vote against classes that they specifically hate. I mean specifically, I'm not voting samurai and soulborn as tier 6. I want too but they aren't quite as bad as warrior/commoner.

Possible solutions
1: Everyone required to vote on everything (has scores of its own problems)
2: Requiring at least one vote at each tier.
3. Minimum number of votes.

Not seriously suggesting this it would be a lot of work to go back to, and very weird to add in.

[pabelfly]

When used that way they become more of a scaffolding for the conversation about power levels. Its no big deal, I'll probably just copy the original post and add some asterisks if I decide to run that game. Also reverse the numbers for ease of reference.

Hmm... how would you like to see the tier system used?

[Sutr]

Its kinda got a life of its own at this point, how I want it used isn't really important. I just thought denoting it with an asterisk would help new people finding this thread that some classes jump more.

[Anthrowhale]

I recalled another reason why Spontaneous Cleric is so much fun---it's the cleric level 2 spell 'Substitute Domain'. For a spontaneous cleric, this allows you to swap out your spells known on the fly for other domains of a chosen deity. So a Spontaneous Cleric of Pelor (a baseline choice) would have an effective spells known of:

1 Bless, Color Spray, Cure Light Wounds, Disrupt Undead, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Goodberry, Hypnotism, Nimbus of Light, Protection from Evil, +5 chosen
2 Aid, Bless Weapon, Bull's Strength, Cure Moderate Wounds, Deific Vengeance, Eagle's Splendor, Enthrall, Heat Metal, Hypnotic Pattern, Status, Substitute Domain, +4 chosen
3 Create Food and Water, Cure Serious Wounds, Heroism, Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Recitation, Searing Light, +4 chosen
4 Castigate, Cure Critical Wounds, Discern Lies, Divine Power, Fire Shield, Holy Smite, Imbue with Spell Ability, Spell Immunity, Tongues, Widened Faerie Fire, +4 chosen
5 Dance of the Unicorn, Dispel Evil, Flame Strike, Greater Command, Holy Sword, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mass Reduce Person, Rainbow Pattern, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Righteous Might, +4 chosen
6 Bolt of Glory, Blade Barrier, Fires of Purity, Fire Seeds, Forbiddance, Geas/Quest, Heal, Heroes' Feast, Rainbow, Stoneskin, +3 chosen
7 Bigby's Grasping Hand, Greater Heroism, Holy Word, Prismatic Spray, Refuge, Regenerate, Repulsion, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Sunbeam, +3 chosen
8 Bigby's Clenched Fist, Demand, Crown of Glory, Greater Spell Immunity, Holy Aura, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Scintillating Pattern, Sunburst, +3 chosen
9 Bigby's Crushing Hand, Gate, Greater Visage of the Deity, Mass Charm Monster, Mass Heal, Storm of Vengeance, Summon Monster IX (Good only), Prismatic Sphere, Prismatic Wall, +3 chosen

...so long as you can accept the cost of casting Substitute Domain. The bulk of spells shouldn't impress to much, but there are several spells in there that you suddenly don't otherwise need to spend spells known on.

[Dimers]

...so long as you can accept the cost of casting Substitute Domain. The bulk of spells shouldn't impress to much, but there are several spells in there that you suddenly don't otherwise need to spend spells known on.

Funny, I was just discovering that trick myself today. Substitute Domain is quite nice for flexibility, no question, but the 10 minute casting time is a meaningful limitation. You can prep for tomorrow but not for the fight in the next room. I guess it gets a lot better with Scribe Scroll or the like.

Also, it feels cheesy, but that's completely subjective.