OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread

[Anansiil]

Brilliant and interesting dialogue. The "good guy" is usually infallibly fallible.

[The MunchKING]

Fighter gets Feats and advances Base Attack Bonus at +1/level. That's it, that's all the Fighter class does.

And massive amounts of HP, which is useful if he wants to take hits better than say V.

Roy is already high enough level that he should basically already *have* all the Feats that would be useful to him, which means that advancing Fighter just gives him chances to pick up things that he already passed over as being not good enough the first time (and if a Feat wasn't good enough to take at 6th level, it's almost certainly not worth getting at 16th!)

Aren't there a bunch of feats that require a high BAB or Fighter levels to get, which would mean they were just coming available?

Combine with the fact that many other similar martial classes (usually defined as also having 1/1 BAB progression) are very frontloaded, because they want you to have your Signature Thing to do from level 1-2, you get a lot of things Roy could benefit from taking.

Which other classes have 1-1 BAB? I thought it was pretty much Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins. And Roy has in character reasons to not want to go with Barbs or Paladins.

[Jasdoif]

Baleful Polymorph? Iron Heart Surge.

Mind Controlled? Iron Heart Surge.

Redcloak casts Implosion and picks you to die first? Iron Heart Surge.

Not so much...Iron Heart Surge requires a standard action, so you can only use it on your turn. Baleful polymorph disables your special abilities, being mind controlled complicates things because your controlled mind might not chose to active the maneuver (especially with competition over your standard action), and your imploded corpse can't take actions (even if it could, being killed by implosion is an instantaneous effect and Iron Heart Surge only works on effects with a duration of at least one round).

It's core to the weirdness of Iron Heart Surge: most of the things it seems intended for (stunning) complicate/prevent taking the action to use it, whereas it applies just fine to stuff that doesn't make a whole lot of sense (antimagic field).

[Fyraltari]

Iron Heart Surge. Pick a spell, effect, or condition that you're affected by and has a duration of one round or more. This effect ends immediately, and you gain a +2 Morale bonus on your attack rolls until the end of your next turn. This is a beautiful maneuver, almost explicitly made for telling spellcasters to sit on it and spin.

Paralyzed? Iron Heart Surge.

Symbol Of Pain? Iron Heart Surge.

Baleful Polymorph? Iron Heart Surge.

Mind Controlled? Iron Heart Surge.

Redcloak casts Implosion and picks you to die first? Iron Heart Surge.

First a visual aid.

Spoiler: the visual aid

Show

Second can he do that at-will or is there a limit?

[Jasdoif]

Second can he do that at-will or is there a limit?

Depends (there are many options for recovering maneuvers), but doing it every other round doesn't require any special investment for a warblade.

[Ruck]

I'm also not sure why a character abandoning their major motivation to optimize according to rules the comic adheres to loosely at the best of times is treated as a good or desirable thing. The same goes for using a rulebook maybe 1/4 of the comic's readership has heard about, much less used.

In the case of Roy specifically, I think it would be to show that he's grown past "proving to his dad that single class fighters don't suck" as a motivation and is more concerned with doing whatever it takes to optimize his chances of beating Xykon.

[The MunchKING]

Depends (there are many options for recovering maneuvers), but doing it every other round doesn't require any special investment for a warblade.

If it takes your standard action, wouldn't that mean it would cut seriously into your DPS as you're not allowed to make attacks with that round?

[Morty]

Is the problem with his weapons themselves doing reduced damage due to his size modification/penalty, or does it go deeper than that?

Even without the size penalty a dagger is a 1d4 damage weapon. With it, it's 1d3. Rogues get Sneak Attack to counteract the pitiful damage of their weaponry, Rangers don't.

Yes, pretty much. This is D&D's terrible and uninspired combat system more than anything else.

In the case of Roy specifically, I think it would be to show that he's grown past "proving to his dad that single class fighters don't suck" as a motivation and is more concerned with doing whatever it takes to optimize his chances of beating Xykon.

And I'm not sure how multi-classing would accomplish that without getting bogged down in having to explain rules that have been superseded by several new editions by now (depending on whether or not you count Pathfinder).

[woweedd]

In the case of Roy specifically, I think it would be to show that he's grown past "proving to his dad that single class fighters don't suck" as a motivation and is more concerned with doing whatever it takes to optimize his chances of beating Xykon.

He did that a long time ago. There was a speech about the idea that he needs to take down Xykon because he's a threat to the world, not because it'll make dad proud. That's been resolved. Plus, I frankly don't WANT to see Eugene proven right.

[hroþila]

To be fair, daggers by themselves are pretty bad weapons except in very specific circumstances, like when grappling.

[Peelee]

EDIT: Actually, have a much better and cooler example that I'm sure someone already noticed was missing:

Iron Heart Surge. Pick a spell, effect, or condition that you're affected by and has a duration of one round or more. This effect ends immediately, and you gain a +2 Morale bonus on your attack rolls until the end of your next turn. This is a beautiful maneuver, almost explicitly made for telling spellcasters to sit on it and spin.

Paralyzed? Iron Heart Surge.

Symbol Of Pain? Iron Heart Surge.

Baleful Polymorph? Iron Heart Surge.

Mind Controlled? Iron Heart Surge.

Redcloak casts Implosion and picks you to die first? Iron Heart Surge.

Get vampirized in the middle of a desert? Iron Heart Surge the sun.

[Jasdoif]

If it takes your standard action, wouldn't that mean it would cut seriously into your DPS as you're not allowed to make attacks with that round?

If you're talking about recovering, it only takes an otherwise-superfluous standard action if you aren't making a melee attack immediately after the swift action to actually recover maneuvers; while that attack's not going to be a martial maneuver, it could be a normal attack (or the start of a full attack).

If you're talking about Iron Heart Surge, it gets complicated: you might be removing an effect that severely hampers you, or one that impacts your entire party, or you might have swift-action maneuvers to make up (some of) the difference for using your standard action on a supporting maneuver (not in the same round as recovery, obviously).


So I guess it depends on the situation and where you define "seriously".

[Jay R]

No, the Oracle is alive, Belkar did not cause THE DEATH of the Oracle, Belkar didn't even cause a death of the Oracle, the Oracle set up an elaborate scheme to get vengeance for Yik-Yik, Yok-Yok, and other Kobolds by triggering the mark to kill Belkar. The Mark was meant to kill Belkar, which it did, the new Belkar is not the same Belkar who was prophecised to die.



Actually, none of the Oracle's prophecies have come true.

You will not convince us; we will not convince you. We can discuss it when we reach that part of the story.

[Peelee]

You will not convince us; we will not convince you. We can discuss it when we reach that part of the story.

I'm actually really interested in seeing how that will turn out, considering that the author has said "hey this is V's prophecy coming true, let me explain each part in detail" and there's still claims of it not having come true yet.

[Jasdoif]

I'm actually really interested in seeing how that will turn out, considering that the author has said "hey this is V's prophecy coming true, let me explain each part in detail" and there's still claims of it not having come true yet.

Maybe. The various flavors of "This has to be wrong, because otherwise I'd be wrong" kinda blend together after a decade or two, though.

[Morty]

To be fair, daggers by themselves are pretty bad weapons except in very specific circumstances, like when grappling.

There's a lot of things are would be a terrible idea in any real combat situation but are good in D&D and other games. That's since they're games.

[Fyraltari]

I'm actually really interested in seeing how that will turn out, considering that the author has said "hey this is V's prophecy coming true, let me explain each part in detail" and there's still claims of it not having come true yet.

Once we see the X’s in Belkar’s eyes, most of the forum will be amazed by the unforeseen twist that lead to his death and how they would never had guessed his character development would lead to [insert ending here] but about 40% will insist the order is totes gonna raise him you guys.
Then Roy and Durkon will discuss how they won’t raise him and how they feel about that. Then there will be discussions of wether we’ll see his final destination. Then there will be a couple forumite who will emulate a certain other playgrounder and insist that their beloved character was unfairly treated by the narrative and that The Giant is a hack.

Then the last book ends and we all go read something else.

[Petrocorus]

Also not knowing why and not being a D&D player-- I am still unclear as to whether it would be genuinely beneficial this late in the game for Roy to take the first level of another class. What would be most optimal for him?

The comic don't reference the 3.5 rules any more, but still officially abide by them. The core/SRD version at least.

As someone has already explain, Fighter don't give many interesting stuffs at this level, notably odd levels. And given that Roy has good mental stats, almost any other class could benefit him.
Even a single level of Ranger would given him +1 BAB, +2 Fort and Ref Saves, 6 skills points, and the Track feat. He would get 1 less HP than with Fighter.
Other classes like Cleric, Psion, or Psychic Warrior would hit his BAB, but would gives spells/powers and other features.

Warblade would be the most synergetic, but it's not in the freely available part of the rules.

Also, OoTS characters are by design not built with Charop in mind.

Totally true.
And in some case it is explain in-universe by the characters' personalities.
Roy has an incentive to remain a straight Fighter despite this being unoptimized. I believe he even discussed about it with the deva when he died.
V has chosen to specialise in Evocation mostly because he likes to display his arcane power and lay it on his enemies.

[Riftwolf]

If we're talking about optimisation, can I point out that Haley as a long-range rogue makes no sense in 3.5? Really she should either be a scout or be playing Skyrim (although, to her credit, she does seem to have optimised Initiative rolls, as she seems to always beat her opponent in the first round of combat (even when, by RAW, her opponent should've had a surprise round).)
I guess Durkon's lack of optimisation is... Something with Rods? And Cheese? I stopped paying attention to charop a while ago...

[Morty]

It's not fair to blame Haley for 3E designers' bizarre vendetta against ranged rogues. Or rogues in general.

[Doug Lampert]

It's not fair to blame Haley for 3E designers' bizarre vendetta against ranged rogues. Or rogues in general.

Belkar is optimized for 3.0. Ranger got the 3.0 two-weapon fighting feats for free and without needing the prerequisites, power attack applied in full to each weapon attack (source of bonus damage), and small creatures used daggers in place of short swords, which made them the go-to two-weapon fighting option. Not using spells is his main weakness, and you could build a fair 3.0 ranger while ignoring his casting.

3.5, Rangers get to choose archery or twf, and archery is just plain better for them. Power attack doesn't work at all with light weapons (like daggers or short swords). Small daggers do 1d3 rather than 1d4 (see weapon shrinkage back in comic #1).

We know Belkar has Power Attack, because he has improved sunder, but 3.5 he can't benefit from power attack.

Haley is bad in any version of 3.x. As said above, the 3E designers had a bizarre vendetta against ranged rogues, and then made half the MM immune to sneak attack.

Roy is horrible in 3.0, and merely bad in 3.5. (3.5 two-handed power attack and the expansion of the focus/specialization line means that he's not bad for a mostly core fighter in 3.5. It's just that there's no good reason to take 3.5 fighter past level 12, you're vastly better off to go Barbarian or Cleric or Ranger at that point.

V is known to have banned Conjuration in 3.0, and then 3.5 moved teleport from Transmutation to Conjuration, and added splat book spells that do absolutely any silly thing a designer wanted to let a wizard do to overcome the class's weaknesses into Conjuration....

Durkon isn't bad, because clerics are so strong that it's hard to make a bad one. His weakness is that he only uses his spells for healing and melee, and they can do so much more than that.

Elan, strangely, seems fairly well optimized for a bard, if he'd just remember and use his abilities.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Which happens to be the room he put a throne in. You know, his throne room. And that’s ignoring the possibility that Xykon was in another room at the moment Roy and Durkon visited the Oracle.

You can relieve yourself and bathe in the Kitchen Sink, it is still a Kitchen not a bathroom. You can have no bed in a bedroom, it is still a bedroom. The term for a room doesn't change because you decorate it oddly or misuse it. The Gate was there, the Gate was the purpose, a chair does not magically change it to something other than The Gate Room.

.
Posthumously means after death and Durkon has died. Yes etymologically it means ‘after being put in the earth’ but there have been awards of posthumous medals to people whose body where not retrievable si in use (which is the only meaning that counts) it means ‘after death’.

Post Humously means 100%, not coming back ever, completely dead, not in a coma, not in a vegetative state, not in ER or ICU, just dead, deceased, departed, no longer of the mortal coil, ex-existing... Since Durkon is alive, he returned to Dwarven Lands Alive... Durkula didn't even arrive Post-humously, he left that way, but came unhumously.

You do realize that a Trojan horse is, by definition, a horse that is given to someone? Besides that’s not the point. ‘Looking a gift horse in the mouth’ is an idiom describing the act of looking for flaws and hidden dangers in an unexpected boon and Haley got her voice back when she didn’t do that. No matter that she was right to do it.

No, a Trojan Horse not a gift, it is a trap meant to appear to be a gift but is absolutely not one. There was no boon, their was a trap that Haley should have been wary of, the events were quite the opposite of. In fact, the correct response should have been, "When you say the 17 most important words of your life, at one of the both best and worst possible moments, for just the right reason, to the right person, when a Trojan Horse has sprung upon you."

Prove that. Also there’s no (known) time limit on that.

Other way around, for the Oracle to be 100% correct, all prophesies have to be proven correct, this is not Schrodinger's Prophecies, they are wrong until proven correct.

Name one individual with more arcane power than V had at the time. It doesn’t matter that V was not able to hold on to this power, V had it.

Xykon. There is a reason V lost.

What are you even... it doesn’t matter that two words were the same, that’s still four words. V said the right words to Vself because these were the words V needed to convince Vself to take the deal and the only reason V took that deal was pride since the Archfiends presented V with what V thought was a viable plan with the downside that V would have to swallow V’s pride.

A stutter is not separate words, it is a singular word, the fact the stutter a single letter long does not change it is still a single word stuttered, meaning 3 words. If pride was the only reason, V would have waited to do it, but saving V's family, saving the universe, and sparing hir friends were all "right" reasons, all the wrong reasons excludes a possibility of even a single "right" reason AND requires inclusion of ALL wrong reasons, so if a single wrong reason can be excluded, like "to help Xykon" or "to kill Durkon for fun", then it was not "For all the wrong reasons".

Dude, never become a criminal attorney. ‘Honorable members of the jury, my client did not kill the victim as, although my client did plunge a knife inside the victim’s heart with every intent to kill, the victim was being mean’. No wait, I take it back, do become a criminal attorney I want to see that in real life.

"My client did not kill the individual. My client was dramatically gesturing with his dagger, demanding a refund, when the charlatan lunged and impaled himself. My Client was then wracked with nausea and fell into convulsions at the insanity of the crooked Charlatan. Of course, since the Charlatan planned the whole event to frame my client, and the Charlatan is well and fine running his new city, my client is obviously innocent of all charges."

Your concept excluded that the Oracle wanted to be stabbed.

And what makes you think his prophecy referred to this point and this point only? Belkar has been near death many times since.

"Evolve OR Die" he didn't say Evolve and Die Later or just Die Now. It was a Priest of Loki, who knew the code to the mark, and Loki is all about Loopholes even when there aren't supposed to be any.

All those near deaths are to stimulate debate, keep people guessing "This is where it happens", because it helps keep interest and people keep doing it.

Could that be because... drum rolls... the story isn’t over yet? Elan did not get a sad ending either.

Again, not Schrodinger's Prophecies, either the Oracle is currently wrong on the prophecy or the Oracle will always be wrong on the prophesy, he ain't right until he is.

Other prophecies you forgot to (or couldn’t) find weasel words out of: The Oracle did give Roy enough precise info to find Xykon, he did give Eugene the name of his master’s murderer and he did tell Mama Dragon where to find V. He also knew she was coming.

Prophecies involve future events, not past and present. Those are not Prophecies. We know the Oracle can see 4th wall present events, as depicted by reading the translations of Haley's gibberish, which he even pointed out.

Not hard to detect someone coming who is literally a worshipper of your deity and has an appointment.

He also knew Roy and Elan would meet their respective siblings soon. And that Eugene would end up haunting his progeny.

Eugene has been haunting Roy and making more accurate prophecies for over a thousand strips.

Come back when you’ve found wiggle room to ‘Last breath ever before the end of the year’ and ‘not of this world’.

"Last Breath Ever" is the name of a dagger
Belkar is a leftover from a previous Earth... You know, not of THIS World.

You asked for interpretations, not saying those are the actual ones, just those are possible interpretations that are lots of wiggle room.

He answered both to the letter.

No, he answer Roy's to the letter, he lied to Belkar, then when Belkar came back for a refund, he tried to weasel out of refunding him, then killed himself to trigger the mark and get out of paying the refund.

No matter your opinion on the subject, characters in-comic have never made that division. To the point of listing all dates of death on tombstones.

Actually Belkar Celia, and Haley did, ergo why the Oracle's excuses were seen as invalid.

And exactly, they list a death, The Death is final, the Death that is listed last. Belkar was asking specifically about THE final, only one that matters, not coming back from death. If Roy's specifics limited the answer, so too did Belkar's, if Belkar's allowed for wiggle room, then so too did Roy's.

I will give you that one. However as the Oracle didn’t put on ‘the light show’ it’s simple to conclude he wasn’t using his powers at that moment.

Either the Oracle is correct, or he isn't. He pointed out he has the right items, which means the light show is ONLY to bypass the Memory Charm, and allegedly he always seems, but as we see, he is actually always wrong when it has to do with the Future. He is a Charlatan that tries to shoehorn his answers to fit what happened, ergo the whole point of the Memory Charm is to cover his behind when he makes loads of mistakes.

[Riftwolf]

I'd say you'd bend the moon to waxing, if I comment on its wane. But only because I want to talk in a meter (trochaic heptameter? At a guess)

[JackJin]

Y'know, I'd love to believe the theories of Belkar living through his prophecy. He's a fantastic character I've enjoyed watching change and grow over the course of several years, how could I not want him to find a way through this? But, being real, he's probably going to die, and that's that.

(As an example) He's probably going to be there at the final battle, the climax of the book. As Roy, V, Haley and Elan stare down Xykon, and Durkon confronts Red-cloak, Belkar... Belkar is probably going to be forced to fight more goblins. Maybe Red-cloak 'ports him right into the middle of Azure City, maybe it's the natives from up north, but I have to imagine Belkar's final stand is going to be alone against an army like that. He's going to have to bust out Bloodfeast's true form, he and Mr Scruffy will have their dramatic final pets before plunging into battle, and Belkar will stand atop a mountain of goblin corpses shouting to the world his delightfully quotable quip.

And then he dies, either overwhelmed at last or going down in a suicidal blaze of glory to wipe out as many goblins as he possibly can, an incalculable number. He'll be dead, probably can't be found to be rezzed in the first place, but he'll go down burning the visage of his murder spree into the minds of millions of goblins.

...And then. It all comes together. The countless stories and lives he's been involved with through the years, creating legends, almost worship of his bloodshed, to say nothing of the knowledge of his existence across them all, belief he might be still alive somehow, or able to kill. Then there's the untold numbers he's killed himself, the souls whose last thoughts, whose dying anger, is of Belkar alone, churning away in the afterlife thinking of him. And of course... at that battle itself. The dedication of all those countless goblins that day on that battlefield to come, whose last thoughts could not be of the Dark One, but of the Shoeless One.

I'm just saying. Goblins have been proven to raise one of their own to divinity before. "Evil" gods count just as much as "Good" ones, and Belkar would be downright legendary. And it could even give him the same Violet quiddity that Durkon needs to seal the gates stronger. I'm (semi-seriously) calling it. Belkar will die, yes. But in doing so, he will rise to become the War God of the Viole(n)t Pantheon.

...I mean, that'd be cool. But for what it's worth as long as his probable death doesn't feel utterly pointless like the one envisioned in the Pyramid, I'll realistically accept whatever fate the Giant has in store for him.

[hroþila]

I'm not going to address all the madness in that long post, I'm just going to point out that V did not stutter. Stuttering is represented in the comic with hyphens: "I-I must succeed". Ellipses represent a pause. V didn't stutter, they hesitated.

[JT]

... the allosaurus mount was a key factor in

Defeating another allosaurus
breaking through the army
Avoiding Tarquin's mooks
expending most of the psion's power points (that gate ability is 5th-7th lvl minimum and with psionics you can spend ALL your power points on high lvl abilities)
and even soaking a high lvl spell. can you imagine if one of the order was the target of a baleful polymorph?
...

Inconceivable! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html

[Schroeswald]

You can relieve yourself and bathe in the Kitchen Sink, it is still a Kitchen not a bathroom. You can have no bed in a bedroom, it is still a bedroom. The term for a room doesn't change because you decorate it oddly or misuse it. The Gate was there, the Gate was the purpose, a chair does not magically change it to something other than The Gate Room.

What do you think Lord Xykon would call the room where he sits around all day on his throne, what would he make the MiTD call it, how about Trigak or some random goblin mook, with Redcloak thoroughly humiliated so as not to talk back, it’s his throne room, and sometimes if everyone calls something one thing that isn’t it’s original name, it gets a new name.

Post Humously means 100%, not coming back ever, completely dead, not in a coma, not in a vegetative state, not in ER or ICU, just dead, deceased, departed, no longer of the mortal coil, ex-existing... Since Durkon is alive, he returned to Dwarven Lands Alive... Durkula didn't even arrive Post-humously, he left that way, but came unhumously.

You define death as never coming back, but no one else here defines it like that, and thus you use strange times, Durkon died, and then he came back while he wasn’t alive, thus he came after his death, I wish there was a word for that.

No, a Trojan Horse not a gift, it is a trap meant to appear to be a gift but is absolutely not one. There was no boon, their was a trap that Haley should have been wary of, the events were quite the opposite of. In fact, the correct response should have been, "When you say the 17 most important words of your life, at one of the both best and worst possible moments, for just the right reason, to the right person, when a Trojan Horse has sprung upon you."

She’s not gonna trust anyone else if she thinks there’s a trap, the only way for her to decide to trust Elan, by not looking a gift horse in the face, maybe that gift was a secret attack, but she didn’t mistrust a good thing and got her voice back.

Other way around, for the Oracle to be 100% correct, all prophesies have to be proven correct, this is not Schrodinger's Prophecies, they are wrong until proven correct.

Counterpoint, you can’t say an event won’t come true when it can’t yet, we can ignore those that can still happen until they are proved wrong, with the year ending or Elan not getting a happy ending.

Xykon. There is a reason V lost.

After V got much less powerful, with Xykon winning by making them lose a concentration check, which isn’t any part of arcane power.

A stutter is not separate words, it is a singular word, the fact the stutter a single letter long does not change it is still a single word stuttered, meaning 3 words. If pride was the only reason, V would have waited to do it, but saving V's family, saving the universe, and sparing hir friends were all "right" reasons, all the wrong reasons excludes a possibility of even a single "right" reason AND requires inclusion of ALL wrong reasons, so if a single wrong reason can be excluded, like "to help Xykon" or "to kill Durkon for fun", then it was not "For all the wrong reasons".

First off, good thing V paused and didn’t stutter, she said I, then reconsidered, kept on his course and said I must succeed. Oh and good thing THE GIANT CONFIRMED THIS FULFILLED THE PROPHECY so the whole debate is unnecessary.

"My client did not kill the individual. My client was dramatically gesturing with his dagger, demanding a refund, when the charlatan lunged and impaled himself. My Client was then wracked with nausea and fell into convulsions at the insanity of the crooked Charlatan. Of course, since the Charlatan planned the whole event to frame my client, and the Charlatan is well and fine running his new city, my client is obviously innocent of all charges."

Your concept excluded that the Oracle wanted to be stabbed.

Belkar stabbed the Oracle and killed him, the Mark of Justice agrees he did lethal damage, Belkar stuck his dagger into the chest of the Oracle and has not denied it once, even if the Oracle wanted it (which he didn’t) being provoked doesn’t make you innocent.

"Evolve OR Die" he didn't say Evolve and Die Later or just Die Now. It was a Priest of Loki, who knew the code to the mark, and Loki is all about Loopholes even when there aren't supposed to be any.

All those near deaths are to stimulate debate, keep people guessing "This is where it happens", because it helps keep interest and people keep doing it.

Fun fact: Everyone dies, so unless you think evolve or die means Belkar is slated for immortality your interpretation is incorrect, Evolve or Die means that he can’t get out of this situation without evolving, it doesn’t mean he won’t die anymore than If someone said the Order has to escape Tarquin or die meant they couldn’t die if they escaped, it would just mean they would definitely die if they didn’t escape.

Again, not Schrodinger's Prophecies, either the Oracle is currently wrong on the prophecy or the Oracle will always be wrong on the prophesy, he ain't right until he is.

Again, Elan hasn’t gotten a sad ending yet, until the deadline for a prophecy is reached is can’t be proven wrong.

Prophecies involve future events, not past and present. Those are not Prophecies. We know the Oracle can see 4th wall present events, as depicted by reading the translations of Haley's gibberish, which he even pointed out.

He calls them prophecies, and thus he used his prophetic power to know all these things he has no way of knowing, including seeing into the future to read Haley’s gibberish translations in books.

Eugene has been haunting Roy and making more accurate prophecies for over a thousand strips.

Making one accurate prophecy over a thousand strips ago is not making accurate prophecies for over a thousand strips.

"Last Breath Ever" is the name of a dagger
Belkar is a leftover from a previous Earth... You know, not of THIS World.

You asked for interpretations, not saying those are the actual ones, just those are possible interpretations that are lots of wiggle room.

But, your second one doesn’t solve it? Belkar not being long for this world requires him to, y’know, leave it? And he also needs no reason to find his IRA anymore and eat birthday cake, which aren’t solved by any theory.

No, he answer Roy's to the letter, he lied to Belkar, then when Belkar came back for a refund, he tried to weasel out of refunding him, then killed himself to trigger the mark and get out of paying the refund.

That’s only if you decide he did, both of those prophecies came true to the letter, Xykon was within 1000 miles of Girard’s Gate before Kraagor’s and Belkar caused the death of one of Roy, V, Miko, Windstriker or the Oracle.

Actually Belkar Celia, and Haley did, ergo why the Oracle's excuses were seen as invalid.

No, that’s not why they were seen as invalid, they were seen as invalid because helping Roy fight Xykon isn’t causing Roy’s death.

And exactly, they list a death, The Death is final, the Death that is listed last. Belkar was asking specifically about THE final, only one that matters, not coming back from death. If Roy's specifics limited the answer, so too did Belkar's, if Belkar's allowed for wiggle room, then so too did Roy's.

Only if you say there is any distinction Belkar was making, which only you seem to see as true, if we say the death means the dying (which it does), then Belkar caused the dying of the Oracle, but there was no possible interpretation of words that allow Xykon going to Azure City be a correct answer.

Either the Oracle is correct, or he isn't. He pointed out he has the right items, which means the light show is ONLY to bypass the Memory Charm, and allegedly he always seems, but as we see, he is actually always wrong when it has to do with the Future. He is a Charlatan that tries to shoehorn his answers to fit what happened, ergo the whole point of the Memory Charm is to cover his behind when he makes loads of mistakes.

No he isn’t.

[The MunchKING]

You can have no bed in a bedroom, it is still a bedroom. The term for a room doesn't change because you decorate it oddly or misuse it.

Not really true.

The previous owners of my house used this room as a bedroom. However I have all my office equipment and computers and books here. Does the fact that someone else used it as a bedroom mean it is not an office at this point?

Post Humously means 100%, not coming back ever

I'm sure you have some sort of canon citation for this affirmation right? Because that's not part of the definition.

No, a Trojan Horse not a gift, it is a trap meant to appear to be a gift but is absolutely not one. There was no boon,

Who says gifts have to be boons? The definition just says "something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned".

Haley didn't earn the gift of a date with Nale, it was just given to her. Thus a gift.

Other way around, for the Oracle to be 100% correct, all prophesies have to be proven correct, this is not Schrodinger's Prophecies, they are wrong until proven correct.

And all of the ones that have happened have come true.

Xykon. There is a reason V lost.

A) It was a Xykon/Redcloak/Tsukiko Team up.

B) He didn't beat her with Arcane Power, but by whacking her with a big rock.

V had way more Arcane Power than Xykon and wasted it. That was kind of the point of the arc.

A stutter is not separate words, it is a singular word,

And if it was a stutter rather than a pause and repetition (as indicated by the ellipses) that would be important. As it wasn't though, that wasn't.

If pride was the only reason, V would have waited to do it, but saving V's family, saving the universe, and sparing hir friends were all "right" reasons

None of which actually applied to why she made the decision. The ABD wasn't even threatening her friends or the Universe.

Your concept excluded that the Oracle wanted to be stabbed.

Just because you want to die doesn't mean the guy that stabbed you didn't cause your death.

"Evolve OR Die" he didn't say Evolve and Die Later or just Die Now.

So because Soon's code-phrase was not an unambiguous statement of his mortality, you assume Belkar is now immortal? Am I understanding your logic correctly?

Again, not Schrodinger's Prophecies, either the Oracle is currently wrong on the prophecy or the Oracle will always be wrong on the prophesy, he ain't right until he is.

He's been right about literally every other one.

Prophecies involve future events, not past and present. Those are not Prophecies. We know the Oracle can see 4th wall present events, as depicted by reading the translations of Haley's gibberish, which he even pointed out.

Would it matter to you at all if I pointed out he did that by looking forward in time until the comic was in a book and reading the translation?

Eugene has been haunting Roy and making more accurate prophecies for over a thousand strips.

I suppose you have canonical backing for this assertation? He made ONE prophecy which was a lot flakier than anything the Oracle said.

Belkar is a leftover from a previous Earth... You know, not of THIS World.

You asked for interpretations, not saying those are the actual ones, just those are possible interpretations that are lots of wiggle room.

The actual quote was "not long for this world" nothing about where he was from.

No, he answer Roy's to the letter, he lied to Belkar, then when Belkar came back for a refund, he tried to weasel out of refunding him, then killed himself to trigger the mark and get out of paying the refund.

Which, in getting himself killed, made the prophecy come true. "Self-fulfilling" doesn't mean "Wrong".

Actually Belkar Celia, and Haley did, ergo why the Oracle's excuses were seen as invalid.

Actually, they were NOT precluded on people coming back (as that hadn't happened yet), but saying that he didn't directly kill any of the other people. Which was true, but he asked about "caused the death of" which is a lot more vague.

And exactly, they list a death, The Death is final, the Death that is listed last. Belkar was asking specifically about THE final, only one that matters, not coming back from death. If Roy's specifics limited the answer, so too did Belkar's, if Belkar's allowed for wiggle room, then so too did Roy's.

Again, that capitalization and emphasis isn't in the comic. He just asks if he causes the death of them, and the Oracle totally died.

Either the Oracle is correct, or he isn't. He pointed out he has the right items, which means the light show is ONLY to bypass the Memory Charm, and allegedly he always seems, but as we see, he is actually always wrong when it has to do with the Future. He is a Charlatan that tries to shoehorn his answers to fit what happened, ergo the whole point of the Memory Charm is to cover his behind when he makes loads of mistakes.

Which he hasn't actually made?

[The MunchKING]

Again, Elan hasn’t gotten a sad ending yet, until the deadline for a prophecy is reached is can’t be proven wrong.

It's not a binary. There's a whole HOST of emotions his ending could be (you know, if it weren't for the prophecy).

But, your second one doesn’t solve it? Belkar not being long for this world requires him to, y’know, leave it? And he also needs no reason to find his IRA anymore and eat birthday cake, which aren’t solved by any theory.

To be fair to Shoelessgdowar on that one, you phrased it wrong, say he "wasn't OF this World". So what shoeless gave you did match what you said...

[Ruck]

And I'm not sure how multi-classing would accomplish that without getting bogged down in having to explain rules that have been superseded by several new editions by now (depending on whether or not you count Pathfinder).

I don't think it would take a lot of rules explanation to get the point across, but also, given Rich's relatively low interest in D&D mechanics as a part of this story, I don't see him writing anything to appease the optimizers.

I'm not going to address all the madness in that long post, I'm just going to point out that V did not stutter. Stuttering is represented in the comic with hyphens: "I-I must succeed". Elipsis represent a pause. V didn't stutter, they hesitated.

Facts don't do what shoeless wants them to.