Results 211 to 240 of 317
-
2019-10-17, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
-
2019-10-17, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
The "Belkar ascends to Godhood" theory is great and I almost want to buy it.
Unfortunately, Gods presumably get birthday cakes.
-
2019-10-17, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Well, that's a lie.
-
2019-10-17, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2019
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Why wouldn't gods have birthday cake? Belkar is perfectly allowed to celebrate as many birthdays as he wants.
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
-
2019-10-17, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
-
2019-10-17, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2019-10-17, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2019
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
-
2019-10-17, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
The shedding of blood and souls is a very traditional way for Dark Powers to ascend in fiction though...
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
-
2019-10-17, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Gender
-
2019-10-17, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
I don't usually like to participate in nitty-gritty prophesy discussions, but I feel like this statement misrepresents the meaning of that scene. Xykon did not beat V because he had more arcane power than them. V was wielding the arcane might of two epic-level magic users while Xykon was wielding that of one- in terms of raw arcane power, V had him dead to rights. The point of Xykon's speech about how "power is power" wasn't that he had more magic power than V in that moment, it was that power can take many different forms. For that fight, Xykon's power advantage took the form of:
- Magical traps that robbed V of their surprise round
- Two brilliant minions casting divination spells and shouting out advice
- The knowledge and experience to use his toolset to its fullest extent and to exploit V's weaknesses
- The strength score to be able to smoosh V with a Very Big Rock, and crush people's windpipes with his fingers
- And of course, a +6 racial bonus to Listen checks
Heck, the fact that V and O'Chul beat Xykon AFTER V lost their ultimate arcane power and barely had two spells left shows how little arcane power levels actually mattered to the outcome of that fight.
-
2019-10-17, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Perhaps not as a good god. But the way Thor described it doesn't exactly imply worship has to be positive. (Helya alone is proof of that.) What matters is that they're being thought of at all, both in life and death. Belkar's managed to get so many people pissed at him the Oracle got together just enough Kobolds together to legally constitute a town. If they were told why they were living there, that's a thing. There's no way Belkar's corpse-screaming moment at Azure City didn't get more than a few heads turning. Even in the City of Blood he easily managed to get everyone in the arena immediately recognizing him as the 'villain' of the bunch.
My point (in this discussion I'm only moderately believing feasible, but find fun) is that godhood is not predicated on people being on their knees, praying to you a whole lot. Having an army screaming for your blood in furious anger or citizens trembling every night praying you don't find them is 'prayer' just the same, so it seems to me anyway. If everywhere you go you make people mad at you, they KNOW you. Everyone Belkar kills is probably going to remember him pretty damn strongly in the afterlife... And he's pretty hard to ignore when he does kill them, making their dedication strong.
Tbc I don't know if this theory is really, actually plausible or not, but I mean... Evil gods have to get their start in a Pantheon SOMEHOW, right? And it's sure as heck is not going to be by making the people like you a whole bunch.
-
2019-10-17, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2019-10-17, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2019
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
That’s exactly how TDO (an almost certainly Evil god) was raised, every evil cleric seems to believe their god is a great protector of them, I personally wouldn’t feel that Belkar saved me.
Oh no, I was agreeing with you, just trying to add on to it.Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
-
2019-10-17, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Alright, but, just for a second, imagine TDO is to his pantheon and clerics a "good" god. At least, good to them. Official evil alignment aside, TDO rose in a manner most would call heroic. I'm suggesting a villainous rise, relative.
Besides. To use your tagline, I can't imagine any better payoff for Belkar's downright iconic declaration he is, without question, a sexy, shoeless God of War.
-
2019-10-17, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- Malaysia
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
I...never actually realized that Roy was skipping out on his magic items to prove something with his family sword.
Belkar is more attentive than I am, at least.Awesome OOTS-style Fallout New Vegas avatar by Ceika. Or it was, before Photobucket started charging money.
General nerd person. Mostly computer games and manga.
-
2019-10-17, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2019
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
It feels like a worshippers see who they worship as “good”, someone who helps them succeed (Loki gets Hilgya to Valhalla, Hel saves them from death, Nergal gives some mummies, even if all of these are false they still show what their worshippers think of them), and no one feels like Belkar helps them.
Also, I have a tag line? What’s my tag line, when did I get it and are you sure I didn’t steal it?Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
-
2019-10-17, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Whoops! I an not a smart man.
I wouldn't call a year of slaughtered innocents to avenge one man heroic by any stretch of the imagination.
And you nailed it, Belkar is the only one declaring it. I can say I'm the Queen of England, but the coronation just ain't happening.
Lastly, him becoming a god and getting rewarded for a lifetime of Evil doesn't really strike me as a payoff. More like a spit in the face to all the people he killed.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2019-10-17, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Well to fit the Belkar metaphor; if you got an army and conquered the British Empire, you could pretty much declare yourself the Queen of England and only the other Superpowers could disagree with you. But the Empire and the Commonwealth certainly only contributes to your rise at that point.
Likewise if Belkar gets enough Soul power to make himself a God, then there may be a window for Thor to murder him on ascension before Belkar gets more Soul power to give him full Godly powers; but there's nothing the mortals can do about it except pray he doesn't smite them. Which as Hel shows was a pretty good deal. Also if he's famous ENOUGH for all his super-murdering, the other warriors may pray to him for his blessing in their own super-murdering.
EDIT:
Well he's not really doing it that much, he's just not seeking out more items.
I mean he took the Belt of Ogre Strength and the Bag of Tricks, and the other miscellaneous stuff he's run across, but he just never went looking for new stuff outside of loot.
I'm guessing his share is also the one that gets the most cut into for things like "resurrection fund" and "travel expenses" on account of how he is the leader and all.Last edited by The MunchKING; 2019-10-17 at 08:57 PM.
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
-
2019-10-17, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2019-10-17, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
That's... extremely uncharitable in all accounts, and I'll assume you're not intending to come off as harsh as you sound.
My point is it was heroic to the Goblins. It was to them a wrathful crusade to avenge their fallen who was going to lead them to peace and prosperity. Use different words, spin it a little differently, and it's heroic. Good, even. It's an alignment debate at that point, and in D&D that's never useful.
I was referring to his self-declaration as a potential narrative payoff because this is a story. He's used it twice as a definition of himself, both during Azure City and his "evolve or die" moment. Once is cool, twice is a callback, a third time would be implying greater meaning. If you're not insane, or just being foolish, you saying you're the Queen of England twice in a story implies it's not random. Cue the third time when it's revealed you've been ol' Liz in a mask this entire time, and "I'm the Queen of England" becomes a badass punchline.
...And? He's killed a lot of people. A lot of them bad, even if he didn't care whether they were or not. It's been well established his entire build is best suited for killing low-level monsters by the dozens, and nowadays he's starting to question and seek out a reason why he's fighting. The way Roy talked about him during his assessment in the clouds and to Haley after, Belkar is treated less like a person and more a force of nature, a living weapon against whoever they point him at. Granted, several individuals Roy included can smack the little guy down with ease, but... there's a lot more low-hit point fodder out there in the world, and their last dying gasps being used enraged at Belkar is arguably more relevant to a discussion of ascension.
I don't want this to turn as bitter or dismissive as I'm getting the sense it's becoming, so I'll leave it at this. Right now, the rules for ascension are intentionally vague. We're given what the gods need to keep going, reference to the fact that deities have arisen in the past, but usually within an established Pantheon, and TDO is exceptional specifically for arising outside of the norm. All I'm saying is it'd be a pretty cool turn if Belkar's finale in this life came recognizing what he was fighting for, going down swinging against countless enemies, and becoming the personification of war he's declared himself to be. If that's implausible to you, fine. Didn't want to fight on this one.
-
2019-10-17, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
-
2019-10-17, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
-
2019-10-17, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Don't worry, I get zero sensr of bitterness or dismissiveness.
At the same time, I'm not intending to sound harsh, just trying to lay out how I see it. Which is to say, the author has laid out a lot of his beliefs about stories and life in general, and while I don't agree with all of them, one of them in particular is that evil is not a valid life choice. Background character being evil and becoming a god? Sure, why not, that works into the story. Main character who spent 99% of his life being an unrepentant monster becoming a god? I don't see him writing that story. Killing people is bad, but that's also pretty common and it's easy to be senensitized, even while still viewing it as abhorrent. But what about other things he's done, like slavery? He's totally been a slave, and what's more, was proud of that. Psychopathic murderer/slave getting no comeuppance for a lifetime of ghoulish crimes isn't closure in my book.
Or, to put it another way, Walter White may be entraining to watch but I don't want him to retire to the beach at the end.
I like being lazy. Stay within the Forum Rules and you can disagree with me as vehemently as you want all day long, and I'll call it a win.Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-17 at 09:29 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2019-10-17, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
-
2019-10-17, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2019-10-17, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
I have 100 imaginary gold pieces on Belkar doing a heroic (and soul-ending) sacrifice a la Kraagor of the Order of the Scribble, to Save the World *and* avoid a nasty afterlife.
-
2019-10-17, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
-
2019-10-17, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
-
2019-10-17, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
-
2019-10-17, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas