OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

I'd guess it cost exactly as much as Shirra payed for it, because somehow I doubt Rich, who only occasionally cares about RAI (I'm honestly still shocked he wrote in V getting some rubies specifically for a Forcecage), would actually care about this RAW when not making a joke about the RAW being dumb (see, last time he made fun of it).

It's precisely because he put that detail in that makes me think that the rubies being a gift will make some spell fail just when it's most needed. Not necessarily the next time that rubies are needed, but whenever V's previous stash of rubies runs out. It may be stupid, but it's a stupidity that has been explicitly shown to be how that aspect of magic works in Stickworld.

I agree that there's some wiggle room in that the gifted rubies have a book value, but that didn't affect the "official" value of the rubies on the previous occasion that we read about them being obtained. I'm standing by my prediction.

mutter mutter laughed at mutter theory mutter mutter show them all mutter mutter

[Quebbster]

It's precisely because he put that detail in that makes me think that the rubies being a gift will make some spell fail just when it's most needed. Not necessarily the next time that rubies are needed, but whenever V's previous stash of rubies runs out. It may be stupid, but it's a stupidity that has been explicitly shown to be how that aspect of magic works in Stickworld.

I agree that there's some wiggle room in that the gifted rubies have a book value, but that didn't affect the "official" value of the rubies on the previous occasion that we read about them being obtained. I'm standing by my prediction.

mutter mutter laughed at mutter theory mutter mutter show them all mutter mutter

We don't actually see a spell fizzle because of the diminished Worth of the rubies though. The master in that trip Thinks they need more rubies, but he could be wrong.
At least that's one way to rationalize it if you dont want to repeat the same joke again.

[denthor]

What if they lied about the soul binding thing being a once-a-millennia power, and they intend to bind themselves to the vessel in a way that has already been explained to the audience?

Not lied had never thought about doing the binding. That was the test run.

[Peelee]

What if they lied about the soul binding thing being a once-a-millennia power

I don't consider that a strict line, like magical "once per day" powers, but rather that they rarely have reason to grant such a thing to a mortal; it was like winning the lottery.

[hroþila]

Redcloak recognized it on sight. He's a nerd, but it can't have been all that obscure. Then again, they actually said "once-a-century", which could have been strictly accurate and still have produced enough documented users for Redcloak to know about it.

[factotum]

Redcloak recognized it on sight. He's a nerd, but it can't have been all that obscure.

He is also a very high level Cleric, and if a soul splice is Knowledge (Religion) or some subclass of it, you'd expect him to have ranks in that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Dun, dun, DUN! (Where’s Elan when you need him?)

First, I love the interactions between Vaarsuvius and Blackwing, especially in the third Panel and the last panel. Second, that was a very neat segue into the topic of the IFCC.

Speaking of which, that was quite a reveal, and a very nice cliffhanger going into Book 7. It‘s interesting that the IFCC wanted Hel to succeed; clearly, they stand to benefit with an Evil god at the head of a pantheon, but it makes it seem as though they are indeed, like all other outsiders, unaware they will get their memories wiped. (Unless they have some way of avoiding the wipe, I suppose. Maybe that’s what the artifact is for?). Speaking of which, I am very curious to find out what it is. I’m also confused as to why Sabine needs an appropriate vessel. Has she always needed one to be on the Prime plane? Or is this specific to the IFCC‘s plans?

I‘m excited to see what the rest of the strips in this book have in store!

[Fyraltari]

Redcloak recognized it on sight. He's a nerd, but it can't have been all that obscure. Then again, they actually said "once-a-century", which could have been strictly accurate and still have produced enough documented users for Redcloak to know about it.

It's also possible that the once-in-a-century bit was reffering to getting not one or two souls but three and amongst the most powerful arcane casters ever. Soul splices with lesser souls may be more common (that sounds like something warlocks or necromancers would do on the semi regular, after all).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nale died because he told his father not to give him special treatment after killing his father's best friend. Now I'm sure things wouldn't have worked out that exact way if he wasn't dating Sabine for one thing he wouldn't have all those potions, but blaming her for his death makes about as much sense as blaming Belkor for Roy's death. Nale's grudge with Malak had more to do with his father or Malak himself than with Sabine (if I had to guess he's pissy because Malak's taking his place as his fathers legacy), and his defiance is a result of the way he was raised by his father more than Sabine.

Nale explicitly says why he has issues with his father. He wants to do it on his own, not be a two-bit pawn in Tarquin's latest scheme. Sabine's main point in the relationship seems to have been keeping Nale from saying that outloud where his father would hear.

Also, given her terror when Nale spilled the beans about the Gates to Tarquin, I don't think they want a near-epic character in the mix, especially not a trickster type like him. Too likely he'll try to take over. Besides, he's already going the planes in the ventral position, so there's no profit.

Now, if they bag an innocent like, say, Niu? Corruption and advancing their schemes.

[Themrys]

It's precisely because he put that detail in that makes me think that the rubies being a gift will make some spell fail just when it's most needed. Not necessarily the next time that rubies are needed, but whenever V's previous stash of rubies runs out. It may be stupid, but it's a stupidity that has been explicitly shown to be how that aspect of magic works in Stickworld.

I agree that there's some wiggle room in that the gifted rubies have a book value, but that didn't affect the "official" value of the rubies on the previous occasion that we read about them being obtained. I'm standing by my prediction.

mutter mutter laughed at mutter theory mutter mutter show them all mutter mutter

Entertaining as that would be, it seems improbable that Vaarsuvius would not be aware of the problem.

If the aspect of "it is about the worth of the rubies and not about the quantity" will play a role, then I predict that V will miraculously be able to cast more spells with those rubies because s/he values the gift so highly. That would show character growth, while the gifted rubies not working at all would just make V look incompetent.

[The MunchKING]

I don't consider that a strict line, like magical "once per day" powers, but rather that they rarely have reason to grant such a thing to a mortal; it was like winning the lottery.

Well given how many powers and such are listed as once per day/week/whatever, I had assumed that bit was literal, and the "once in a lifetime, and the lifetime is that of the entire Multiverse" was the metaphorical bit to mean "you won the lottery, here".

Redcloak recognized it on sight. He's a nerd, but it can't have been all that obscure. Then again, they actually said "once-a-century", which could have been strictly accurate and still have produced enough documented users for Redcloak to know about it.

Dang it, I usually fact-check stuff like that. You're right it was once per century rather than millennium. So they could have done it at least 11 times since the Ancient Empire started their calendar.

He is also a very high level Cleric, and if a soul splice is Knowledge (Religion) or some subclass of it, you'd expect him to have ranks in that.

As it seems to be an Outsider power it would be either that or Knowledge (planes) and Redcloak has already been established to be a nerd. He might have both.

Now, if they bag an innocent like, say, Niu? Corruption and advancing their schemes.

Who was Niu again? one of the random Azure city soldiers?

[bunsen_h]

"Forcecage!" [*ping*]

"Hang on. Those rubies were a gift. You didn't pay for them. They have no 'value'. Your spell shouldn't have worked." [*gnip*]

"They have a real value. Shirra kept track of it." [*ping*]

"Actually, she didn't. She just was happy to be able to give something back to the Thundershields." [*gnip*]

"But happiness has immense value. So does her time." [*ping*]

"Oh come on, that's intangible. It can't be put in numbers, to set a value for the rubies that are consumed, like the spell requires." [*gnip*]

"Nevertheless, they have value. Even a minuscule ruby has the value if it's deemed to by a buyer and seller." [*ping*]

"Now that's just stupid. You couldn't just temporarily 'sell' an item at a high price and then take it back, just so it has the value needed for spellcasting. That would completely derail the difficulty of things like Raise Dead. That doesn't make sense." [*gnip* *ping* *gnip* *ping* ...]

"... I find that I must defer to the logic of your interpretation of the laws of arcane magic." [*gnip*]

[NobleCuriosity]

Who was Niu again? one of the random Azure city soldiers?

Niu was Haley’s stealthiest Azure City Resistance subordinate, the fighter that took a level of rogue (and didn’t advertise it to the team Paladin). Haley told Than (the Paladin she left in charge of the resistance) to trust Niu with anything requiring stealth.

And in #827, he did—when Redcloak crushed the resistance, Than ordered her to take a scroll of sending and run while he distracted Redcloak, then Send to Hinjo to warn him of the Resistance’s demise and Redcloak’s recovery of the phylactery.

@bunsen_h: I find that conversation unlikely but amusing nonetheless.

[The MunchKING]

Niu was Haley’s stealthiest Azure City Resistance subordinate, the fighter that took a level of rogue (and didn’t advertise it to the team Paladin). Haley told Than (the Paladin she left in charge of the resistance) to trust Niu with anything requiring stealth.

OH! Right, her! Ok. Thank you for reminding me.

[Petrocorus]

Niu was Haley’s stealthiest Azure City Resistance subordinate,.....oots0827

BTW, have we had any news from her since then? I lost tracks.

[NobleCuriosity]

BTW, have we had any news from her since then? I lost tracks.

We saw Hinjo receive the sending from her at some point (might have been in a book, though). Other than that...I don’t think so.

Which is odd, now that you mention it.

[factotum]

We saw Hinjo receive the sending from her at some point (might have been in a book, though). Other than that...I don’t think so.

Which is odd, now that you mention it.

It's not that odd. She's in hostile territory a very long way from any friends, and there aren't going to be random scrolls of Sending lying around to help her communicate with Hinjo again. Chances are she's hiding while making her way as fast as she can toward Greysky City.

[Jasdoif]

We saw Hinjo receive the sending from her at some point (might have been in a book, though).

#865.

Other than that...I don’t think so.

Which is odd, now that you mention it.

Not really. I mean, unless she had ended up with O-Chul and Lien, there isn't any particular reason she'd have any connection to the events that have unfolded in this book. (Maybe we'll see her soon!)

[D.One]

"Now that's just stupid. You couldn't just temporarily 'sell' an item at a high price and then take it back, just so it has the value needed for spellcasting. That would completely derail the difficulty of things like Raise Dead. That doesn't make sense." [*gnip* *ping* *gnip* *ping* ...][*gnip*]

"Of course I can. Here, V, I'll buy your rubies for 100.000 gold. Now buy them back. Ok, now you have 100.000 in rubies. Don't you agree, Laws of Magic?" (Rolls Bluff)

[Peelee]

"Now that's just stupid. You couldn't just temporarily 'sell' an item at a high price and then take it back, just so it has the value needed for spellcasting. That would completely derail the difficulty of things like Raise Dead. That doesn't make sense." [*gnip* *ping* *gnip* *ping* ...]

"... no, that doesn't make any sense. Spell component requirements are set out in prices, not weight, volume, or mass, so either the items have intrinsic value for the purposes of spellcasting, in which case buying and selling has no effect, or the value is set at whatever value I purchased them at, in which case arbitrary transactions made solely for the purpose of inflating price are a legitimate tactic. Let's experiment, shall we? I, Vaarsuvius, sell a single gram's worth of ruby to Vaarsuvius for 1,500 gp. I agree to these terms, I submit payment to myself via an account held in escrow, payment has been neurologically logged as received, a receipt has been psychically transmitted, thank you for your business, let us see if the single gram's worth of ruby is consumed or multiple so that I know whether I need to open up a self-serve warehouse club for myself while you are encased within your magical container."[*ping*]

[Jasdoif]

"... no, that doesn't make any sense. Spell component requirements are set out in prices, not weight, volume, or mass, so either the items have intrinsic value for the purposes of spellcasting, in which case buying and selling has no effect, or the value is set at whatever value I purchased them at, in which case arbitrary transactions made solely for the purpose of inflating price are a legitimate tactic. Let's experiment, shall we? I, Vaarsuvius, sell a single gram's worth of ruby to Vaarsuvius for 1,500 gp. I agree to these terms, I submit payment to myself via an account held in escrow, payment has been neurologically logged as received, a receipt has been psychically transmitted, thank you for your business, let us see if the single gram's worth of ruby is consumed or multiple so that I know whether I need to open up a self-serve warehouse club for myself while you are encased within your magical container."[*ping*]

Is Blackwing the escrow agent?

[Peelee]

Is Blackwing the escrow agent?

Vaarsuvius is, with Vaarsuvius Holdings, LLC. They avoid having a conflict of interest by having only one interest. Also, there is an interest rate of ten thousand percent.

[Schroeswald]

Is Blackwing the escrow agent?

Of course not! He’d be an esraven agent!
I think I might actually be the worst

[Jasdoif]

Vaarsuvius is, with Vaarsuvius Holdings, LLC.

That seems silly, the whole point of escrow is to have a third-party intermediary disburse stuff. Unless the idea is to inflate the value of the rubies via superfluous fees, in which case it's brilliant.

Of course not! He’d be an esraven agent!

Depends on if the escrow agency discriminates against other stealth-dinosaurs, doesn't it? Keep in mind that traditionally, crows form groups for a murder.

[Rogar Demonblud]

For some reason, I now want to reread the arc in Nodwick with the Ultra-Hangover Plug-In.

[Peelee]

That seems silly, the whole point of escrow is to have a third-party intermediary disburse stuff. Unless the idea is to inflate the value of the rubies via superfluous fees, in which case it's brilliant.

It is, I just set it up that way to have notification of transfer of funds without having to physically transfer anything, so that the entire exchange could be made just by speaking. And as a way to pad the dialogue, because V.

ETA: The escrow holding account is V's purse.

[Arathorne]

"... no, that doesn't make any sense. Spell component requirements are set out in prices, not weight, volume, or mass, so either the items have intrinsic value for the purposes of spellcasting, in which case buying and selling has no effect, or the value is set at whatever value I purchased them at, in which case arbitrary transactions made solely for the purpose of inflating price are a legitimate tactic. Let's experiment, shall we? I, Vaarsuvius, sell a single gram's worth of ruby to Vaarsuvius for 1,500 gp. I agree to these terms, I submit payment to myself via an account held in escrow, payment has been neurologically logged as received, a receipt has been psychically transmitted, thank you for your business, let us see if the single gram's worth of ruby is consumed or multiple so that I know whether I need to open up a self-serve warehouse club for myself while you are encased within your magical container."[*ping*]

Why do I get the odd feeling that this thread just derailed into a Monty Python Flying Circus "skit" thread, wonder if that ever has happened before...

[Doug Lampert]

It is, I just set it up that way to have notification of transfer of funds without having to physically transfer anything, so that the entire exchange could be made just by speaking. And as a way to pad the dialogue, because V.

ETA: The escrow holding account is V's purse.

Sounds reasonable, the basic point, either the value is intrinsic or it is based on the last transfer, holds.

If intrinsic then the fact that the rubies are a gift is irrelevant.

If based on the last transfer then any item has value NI GP for purposes of being used as a spell component, where NI is an arbitrarily high finite value.

Either way, V can cast force cage.

[Nomen]

I think the whole don't bother negotiating for a better deal on spell components when they are listed by price was a one off joke. If not I'm pretty sure it was a team mate being told that they need to buy more because they got a good deal.
Either way I think getting a good deal only matters if the person selling them at a reduced price is not clearly doing it as a favor and at least one of them thinks the reduced price is the real price.

[bunsen_h]

I think the whole don't bother negotiating for a better deal on spell components when they are listed by price was a one off joke. If not I'm pretty sure it was a team mate being told that they need to buy more because they got a good deal.

Apprentice: Master, I talked the shopkeeper down to only 400 gp for the rubies!
Master: Great, but the spell calls for 500 gp worth, so go back in and buy more.

It was clearly satirical on the part of the Giant. It's possible that the Master was mistaken; it doesn't appear that he was joking. It wasn't someone being told to stock up because the price was good and the extras would be useful later.