3.5e hidden gem combo of Dragon Mag's targeteer??

[animewatcha]

You guys are familiar with Dragon Mag 310 's Targetteer ( normal meant to be a ranged fighter ACF )ability that allows you, on a full attack, sacrifice attacks to increase critical threat range. There is no notation about being imcompatible with things that modify crit range. Allowing people to use it to modify base range and improve it with improved crit. Interestingly, it does NOT say it has to be ranged attacks. The targetteer is not proficient with martial melee weapons, but is with simple melee weapons.

This brings us to the light mace and Lightning Maces feat. ( assuming that we are using with this weapon ).

Would it be logical to go with two fighting and potentially natural weapons. We pounce ( through what means ) and therefore give up extra attacks ( like from natural weapons and two-fighting ) and improved crit to maximize light mace threat range to effectively have 'infinite melee attacks' ?

Does a melee attack have to hit to count as a critical threat?

[Xervous]

Can’t reference my stash at the moment but I’m pretty sure you just enhance one attack’s threat range.

[RNightstalker]

Does a melee attack have to hit to count as a critical threat?

Yes. Having a 5-20 threat range is meaningless if you need a 19 on the die to hit, for example.

[Kayblis]

Doesn't work like that. First, Targeteer's Sniper ability applies only to the next attack. Lightning Mace gives you one extra attack at the same attack bonus, and that's it. You don't keep the crit range. And you only get one attack per threat, and you need to hit in order to threaten a crit.

There IS an infinite attacking build though. It revolves around Imp Critical with Aptitude Kukris(crit 15-20) that use the enchant to count both as maces for Lightning Mace and as unarmed attacks for Roundabout Kick(same effect of LM, but with unarmed attacks). This nets you 2 attacks per crit. Then 8 levels of Disciple of Dispater(3.0 content) send it to 9- 20, netting you a 55% chance to crit, with 2 bonus attacks per crit. That's a net positive, and there's a probabilistic formula for this build to reach true infinity depending on the initial number of attacks. With I believe 10 attacks, there's a 98% chance you'll get an actual infinite progression, and if you can deal 1 damage per hit, it's infinite damage. There was a discussion thread on that a long time ago that went in more detail around here, you can find it by looking up infinite attacks.

[Quertus]

There IS an infinite attacking build though. It revolves around Imp Critical with Aptitude Kukris(crit 15-20) that use the enchant to count both as maces for Lightning Mace and as unarmed attacks for Roundabout Kick(same effect of LM, but with unarmed attacks). This nets you 2 attacks per crit. Then 8 levels of Disciple of Dispater(3.0 content) send it to 9- 20, netting you a 55% chance to crit, with 2 bonus attacks per crit. That's a net positive, and there's a probabilistic formula for this build to reach true infinity depending on the initial number of attacks. With I believe 10 attacks, there's a 98% chance you'll get an actual infinite progression, and if you can deal 1 damage per hit, it's infinite damage. There was a discussion thread on that a long time ago that went in more detail around here, you can find it by looking up infinite attacks.

So I found this thread, which linked to this thread, which linked to this thread. Was this the chain of threads you were talking about? (EDIT: I'm guessing it was, because there's that calculation of 98% on 10 attacks in those threads. Do note, however, that the *actual* math is even more complex than is given in those threads)

And the math is, I believe, a hair more complex than most would like, to actually do it right. (EDIT: oh, silly me, I think I figured out how to make the *actual* required math easy. Now, can anyone tell me why the math in those threads that produced "98% @ 10 attacks" is wrong?)

[Saintheart]

Doesn't work like that. First, Targeteer's Sniper ability applies only to the next attack. Lightning Mace gives you one extra attack at the same attack bonus, and that's it. You don't keep the crit range. And you only get one attack per threat, and you need to hit in order to threaten a crit.

There IS an infinite attacking build though. It revolves around Imp Critical with Aptitude Kukris(crit 15-20) that use the enchant to count both as maces for Lightning Mace and as unarmed attacks for Roundabout Kick(same effect of LM, but with unarmed attacks). This nets you 2 attacks per crit.

Minor quibble: Roundabout Kick doesn't duplicate Lightning Mace. If anything they're even more powerful than that.

Lightning Mace permits an additional attack if you roll a threat.

Critical hits, per the SRD and the PHB, require that you score a critical threat, i.e. that your total attack bonus passes the opponent's AC.

That is, "roll" is different from "scoring" a threat. RAI it might have been that you had to score a critical threat, but that's not what the feat says. Instead, Lightning Mace says whenever that little dice comes up with a number in your weapon's threat range, you get another attack - regardless of whether you actually score the threat or not.

Roundabout Kick only provides an additional attack if you score a critical hit on an unarmed attack, i.e. you score a threat and then have a total attack bonus on the subsequent confirmation roll that overcomes the opponent's AC. Happily, though, Roundabout Kick has some uncertain wording in that it says "you can immediately make an additional unarmed attack against the same opponent, using the same attack bonus that you used for the critical hit roll". So if you have a few effects that boost a critical confirmation roll - Bless Weapon probably doesn't count - then by RAW on that line you use your confirmation roll's bonuses on the subsequent free attack, not those with which you scored the critical threat.

Roundabout Kick then says" "For example, Ember the 15th-level monk can make three unarmed attacks in a round, at base attack bonuses of+11, +6, and +1. If she scores a critical hit on her second attack, she can make an additional attack using her +6 base attack bonus. She then makes her third attack (at +l) as normal."

So right away the example says you have to use your base attack bonus, which is not consistent with the rest of the feat or indeed the rest of D&D 3.5 since your attack bonus - whether to score a critical threat or a critical hit - consists of more than your BAB. The example can really only be said to be erroneous, or just an attempt to explain how Roundabout Kick works in the middle of a full attack, or just an example that doesn't read down the rest of the feat, or indeed as a good old secondary source over which the primary source - the feat description - prevails. As said, the feat says you use the "same attack bonus", i.e. you use your attack bonus that comes from the critical hit roll. That is, the bonus you used to confirm the critical hit. This is perfectly consistent with how the rules for critical hits are worded under the PHB and SRD.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The ability does call out ranged attacks, so RAW it doesn't work with melee:

"...Thus if the targetteer's ranged attack normally has a threat range of 19-20...."

Edit: That actually indicates that the benefit must be applied to a ranged attack, but I suppose you could sacrifice melee attacks such as secondary natural weapons to power it.

[Kayblis]

So right away the example says you have to use your base attack bonus, which is not consistent with the rest of the feat or indeed the rest of D&D 3.5 since your attack bonus - whether to score a critical threat or a critical hit - consists of more than your BAB. The example can really only be said to be erroneous, or just an attempt to explain how Roundabout Kick works in the middle of a full attack, or just an example that doesn't read down the rest of the feat, or indeed as a good old secondary source over which the primary source - the feat description - prevails. As said, the feat says you use the "same attack bonus", i.e. you use your attack bonus that comes from the critical hit roll. That is, the bonus you used to confirm the critical hit. This is perfectly consistent with how the rules for critical hits are worded under the PHB and SRD.

The wording is wonky if you deliver it to a computer to interpret, but the intent is very clear. You gain an extra attack at the same attack bonus as the one that scored the critical. The whole +11/+6/+1 part was a clarification on how you use the same bonus, because if you crit on your first iterative, you use the first iterative's attack bonus to hit. It's a consistent rule that works from a gameplay perspective(if you crit, roll attack again) and a developer perspective(use the same bonuses, no extra looping through bonuses that shouldn't apply). Anything else is splitting hairs because you didn't like how they worded it. Remember, this isn't videogame code. You can interpret rules.

[RNightstalker]

That is, "roll" is different from "scoring" a threat. RAI it might have been that you had to score a critical threat, but that's not what the feat says. Instead, Lightning Mace says whenever that little dice comes up with a number in your weapon's threat range, you get another attack - regardless of whether you actually score the threat or not.

As long as whatever comes up on the die causes you to achieve a hit. If you have a 15-20 threat range and "miss" on a 16, no extra attack.

[Saintheart]

The wording is wonky if you deliver it to a computer to interpret, but the intent is very clear. You gain an extra attack at the same attack bonus as the one that scored the critical. The whole +11/+6/+1 part was a clarification on how you use the same bonus, because if you crit on your first iterative, you use the first iterative's attack bonus to hit. It's a consistent rule that works from a gameplay perspective(if you crit, roll attack again) and a developer perspective(use the same bonuses, no extra looping through bonuses that shouldn't apply). Anything else is splitting hairs because you didn't like how they worded it. Remember, this isn't videogame code. You can interpret rules.

Actually as a player I love how they worded it, because it is amenable to the interpretation I have. RAI is not RAW, and it's RAW we can profitably argue, not intent.

How do you make a critical hit? First, score a critical threat. Second, score a critical hit. The SRD makes this clear in black and white tan. Two-step process, different terms, right down to the nomenclature of "scoring" a threat and "scoring" a critical hit. As far as interpretation or intent goes - if they didn't feel they needed to specify it, then why did they include it? Is it not fair to presume that all words in a clause have some function to serve, that there aren't meaningless words or terms introduced for no reason?

Under the SRD, a critical hit is not just scoring the threat without confirming it. If you have bonuses to your confirmation roll, they by definition become part of your attack roll for deciding whether or not you have scored a critical hit. And Roundabout Kick says the subsequent unarmed attack uses - as you have quoted, precisely - the same attack roll as the one that scored the critical hit. That's the second, confirmation roll. That is when the SRD specifies that you have scored a critical hit. Accordingly, that attack roll is the one you use for the subsequent unarmed attack.

Now, it is fair that the PHB does deal with critical hits slightly differently to the SRD, in that the wording is a bit more vague.

When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20) you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll -- another attack roll with all the modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

Subtly different, but it's likely closer to your interpretation on Roundabout Kick. And it's likely the wording the designers were using when they built the feat. But again it still begs several questions: if this reading functioned fine, why is the SRD different? If Roundabout Kick was meant to ignore all your modifiers to the critical confirmation roll, or the critical roll as the PHB calls it, then why does Roundabout Kick not make that clear? Why does the example, as said, only include the BAB as the attack modifier and not even STR? (The answer to the last is clear: because the example is only meant to illustrate where the attack from Roundabout Kick falls in a full attack sequence, not specify that you could only use your BAB on the attack modifier.)

As long as whatever comes up on the die causes you to achieve a hit. If you have a 15-20 threat range and "miss" on a 16, no extra attack.

Not necessarily, which is my point about Lightning Mace's RAW. It says you get an additional attack if you roll a threat.

Nowhere in the PHB or SRD does it use the word "roll" to describe a threat in relation to critical hits. You can score a critical threat if you pass the AC -- on both the PHB and SRD. But roll is not the same as score. On RAW, under Lightning Mace, if you roll your d20, and that dice comes up with a number within your threat range, then you've rolled a threat. You might not have scored one, but then Lightning Mace doesn't say you have to. It's enough to get a number on the d20 within the weapon's critical threat range. You don't have to pass the AC. At least by RAW.

[animewatcha]

The ability does call out ranged attacks, so RAW it doesn't work with melee:

"...Thus if the targetteer's ranged attack normally has a threat range of 19-20...."

Edit: That actually indicates that the benefit must be applied to a ranged attack, but I suppose you could sacrifice melee attacks such as secondary natural weapons to power it.

What you quoted would be the example text and that Paizo's RAI in regards to it. Ironically, the very text that nixed my 'critical dreams' also by RAW allows it to be applied to melee due to wording.

Spoiler: complete wording of ability but whole thing is important.

Show

Sniper: When using the full attack option, the targetteer can sacrifice attacks to gain deadly accuracy. For each attack from a full attack sacrificed, the threat range of the targetteer's weapon increases by 1. Thus if the targetteer's ranged attack normally has a threat range of 19-20, sacrificing one attack from a full attack would increase the threat range to 18-20. A sacrificed attack only enhances the next attack. However, a targetteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further increase the threat range. A targetteer cannot sacrifice all attacks from a full attack action.

The Intent is clearly meant for ranged attacks. The wording used however keeps using 'attack' instead of 'ranged attack' in the appropriate places. Also "the threat range of the targetteer's weapon increases" ( exact wording therefore not just ranged weapon ). "Only enhances the next attack." Welcome to dragon mag content.

[RNightstalker]

Not necessarily, which is my point about Lightning Mace's RAW. It says you get an additional attack if you roll a threat.

Nowhere in the PHB or SRD does it use the word "roll" to describe a threat in relation to critical hits. You can score a critical threat if you pass the AC -- on both the PHB and SRD. But roll is not the same as score. On RAW, under Lightning Mace, if you roll your d20, and that dice comes up with a number within your threat range, then you've rolled a threat. You might not have scored one, but then Lightning Mace doesn't say you have to. It's enough to get a number on the d20 within the weapon's critical threat range. You don't have to pass the AC. At least by RAW.

Rules Compendium p 40: "Sometimes you can score a threat on a natural roll lower than 20. In such cases, you have an increased threat range. Longswords, for instance, give you a threat on a natural attack roll of 19 or 20 (the d20 shows 19 or 20). In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 isn't an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit isn't a threat"