OOTS #1184 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

Same general rules apply. people like you are trying to pull agency away from her and force your decision on her when it's clear she's not completely on board with the idea. that's assault, no matter what way you flavor it.

There's no forcing going on in that strip. Not a suggestion of forcing, not a hint of forcing, not even the tiniest foreshadowing that forcing may follow.

So it's not assault, it's not analogous to any sort of sex crime, it's not analogous to being asked to kiss a gross family member, nor is it contrary to decency.

[Quebbster]

There's no forcing going on in that strip. Not a suggestion of forcing, not a hint of forcing, not even the tiniest foreshadowing that forcing may follow.

So it's not assault, it's not analogous to any sort of sex crime, it's not analogous to being asked to kiss a gross family member, nor is it contrary to decency.

Not in the strip, no. Some people are suggesting Durkon should cast the spell despite not having a clear consent though, that's what other people are taking offense to.

[Cazero]

Frankly, it's not complicated.
Assuming at all risks violating someone's agency. So unless something life-threatening pops up, you don't assume and stick to inaction until the situation clears up.
You can do all the talking you want. But you don't get to act on it until you hear a clear answer.
And in this case, it just so happen that sticking to inaction is equivalent to assuming a no, except that talking after hearing a no makes you a douche.

[Liquor Box]

Not in the strip, no. Some people are suggesting Durkon should cast the spell despite not having a clear consent though, that's what other people are taking offense to.

Oh, that's my misunderstanding then (apologies Draconi). I don't think he should cast the spell over her objections. I'm ok with him persuading/cajoling her. But she is of sound mind, so I don't think he should cast it without her permission.

[hroþila]

Not in the strip, no. Some people are suggesting Durkon should cast the spell despite not having a clear consent though, that's what other people are taking offense to.

Right, but the response to that was that even trying to convince her is bad.

So I dunno, let's all hang out in the happy medium or something.

[Riftwolf]

She could've easily shut the argument down saying 'no and that's the end of it', but she didn't. She left it open to further discussion later.
If Durkon had cast the spell anyway (it has a standard action casting and they've got to round up the Order before they leave anyway) then that'd be robbing Sigdi of agency. As it is, he's agreed to leave it till he returns (presumably giving Sigdi time to process the offer rather than it being jumped on her during the denouement).

[Dr.Zero]

Back to the time, H was a terrible person because she didn't accept to be forced in a marriage, or to exile herself as her only way to escape it.

Nowadays trying to convince (which means talking and analyzing the reasons behind a choice, you know) someone (who clearly suffers the backslash of a traumatic accident) that staying disabled to prove to her dead husband that she didn't forget him is considered more or less on the same level as not consensual sex.

I can only shrug, the alternative is being engulfed by the madness.

[KorvinStarmast]

Back to the time, H was a terrible person because she didn't accept to be forced in a marriage, or to exile herself as her only way to escape it.

Nowadays trying to convince (which means talking and analyzing the reasons behind a choice, you know) someone (who clearly suffers the backslash of a traumatic accident) that staying disabled to prove to her dead husband that she didn't forget him is considered more or less on the same level as not consensual sex.

I can only shrug, the alternative is being engulfed by the madness.

The way I understand it, elective surgery always requires (1) patient desire for the surgery and (2) patient consent to the surgery. Even though this application is with magic, not actual surgery, I would think that the same principle applies. That Sigdi is a stubborn lady is, well, Sigdi being Sigdi. Rather than force a magical version of elective surgery on her, Durkon or others in her extended family can try to come up with a different way to persuade her. Since time is short, Durkon can go and save the world and revisit the offer after he's done doing that. There isn't time pressure for this healing.

I have known a few of those kinds of folks, in re stubborn...

Example: My aunt is 88, and will not allow the doctor to perform a knee replacement on her left knee (which he has recommended more than once). She goes in for cortisone shots now and again.


My aunt's doctor respects her wishes.

Her reticence in taking advantage of the advances in modern medicine is complicated by her husband being legally blind in one eye and not so great in the other, and mostly deaf in both ears. He's 90 today. Were she to go under the knife (she's mostly in good health) then during her rehab - which for a knee replacement takes some time - she can't rely on him to drive her anywhere, and he may or may not be able to care for her. (I imagine he'd manage, he's devoted to her, but the old body is breaking down). My cousin lives about half an hour from her, and I suspect he'd adjust his life to help out while she recovered, but my Aunt has some of that "don't want to put people out" view (which also reads as not letting them help, see the dress scene a while back) that Sigdi seems to profess.

[Dr.Zero]

@KorvinStarmast but I agree with you that, before to get her consent, doing:

"Ehi, mom, look there!"
(*Turns around*) "Where? What?"
(*Touche her*) "Regeneration!"

would be a bad move (even if I'd give him only a stern look, and a "Bad Durkon! You should have given her more time to think about it" comment), but no one is going to do that, especially not D, and I've seen only one to propose to do that.

The problem is that there are people comparing *insisting to analyze* her reasons, with, I don't know, stalking a girl insisting about going sexual?

[Dion]

Some people are suggesting...

Some people be crazy.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Durkon has been changed by his time in human lands and thinks that individuals are allowed to be happy for themselves. Sigdi rejects such notions. Durkon, being the stubborn little pebble that he is, rejects Sigdi's rejection of such notions. Sigdi being the stubborn little pebble she is, rejects Durkon's rejection of her rejection of such notions.

Also, Durkon said "again", when I'm pretty sure he has said "agin" at least once, so score one for inconsistent accents.

[Mad Humanist]

@KorvinStarmast but I agree with you that, before to get her consent, doing:

"Ehi, mom, look there!"
(*Turns around*) "Where? What?"
(*Touche her*) "Regeneration!"

would be a bad move (even if I'd give him only a stern look, and a "Bad Durkon! You should have given her more time to think about it" comment), but no one is going to do that, especially not D, and I've seen only one to propose to do that.

The problem is that there are people comparing *insisting to analyze* her reasons, with, I don't know, stalking a girl insisting about going sexual?

Also Sigdi would get a saving throw and it would be a touch attack against her AC. So I think Durkon would be stupid to try it.

[Furious J]

Durkon's back in dwarven t-town (Talkin' 'bout regeneration)
Stopped the vamps, struck a t-table down (Talkin' 'bout regeneration)
Now he's set to cast his s-s-s-spell (Talkin' 'bout regeneration)
Having two arms would be swell (Talkin' 'bout regeneration)

This is regeneration
This is regeneration, baby

Sigdi doesn't seem so keen (Talkin' 'bout regeneration)
One-armed grandma, that's her s-s-scene (Talkin' 'bout regeneration)
Don't want no ethics v-violation (Talkin' 'bout regeneration)
I'm just talkin' 'bout re-g-g-g-generation (Talkin' 'bout regeneration)

This is regeneration
This is regeneration, baby

[etc.]

[KorvinStarmast]

(Talkin' 'bout regeneration)

Bravo!

[Dr.Zero]

Also Sigdi would get a saving throw and it would be a touch attack against her AC. So I think Durkon would be stupid to try it.

This is just academical, but I've got the impression S is not such a high level for that to be a serious problem (moreover she is now not wearing any amor, and I'd say that in such a circumstance -aka, being attacked by "surprise" by her own son- she must be considered flat footed, too), so I'd say that a Sudden Regeneration(TM) should work just fine with something like 85% of chances.

[Dion]

If anyone is really thinking, “well, Sigdi keeps saying no, but she does in a nice, socially acceptable, and non-confrontational way. So it’s perfectly acceptable for Durkon to just keep pushing her and pushing her until she finally gives in!”, all I have to say is: What the heck is wrong with you?

Continually pestering someone after they’ve said already no isn't “analyzing their reasons”. It’s just violating their consent. That’s so unbelievably creepy and gross.

[Doug Lampert]

She also hasn't said "no"; she's given a serious of increasingly specious excuses before finally admitting she has complicated feelings on the matter.

Yep, which, in the real world would make it a good time to go away for a while and let her think about it. Because she hasn't said yes, and she has indicated deep reluctance and Durkon has no argument to offer that he hasn't already given.

Just repeating the same thing is an attempt to browbeat her, and bad. With stubborn people insisting on a definite answer is likely to get you the answer you don't want, and then they'll stick with it. Sometimes it's best to back off and give someone time. The problem with giving it time in the current situation is that (a) Durkon is far and away her best chance to get it done, and (ii) there is a non-negligible chance that they will never see one another again given the risks of what Durkon is doing.

Based on the time crunch, I could see Durkon giving it one more try before he leaves as reasonable, but he can't just cast the spell without affirmative consent, and he should not just repeat his arguments again and again....

Why poison what is your first meeting with your beloved mother in 20 years, and well may be the last one ever over an issue which is not life threatening?

[Petrocorus]

If anyone is really thinking, “well, Sigdi keeps saying no, but she does in a nice, socially acceptable, and non-confrontational way. So it’s perfectly acceptable for Durkon to just keep pushing her and pushing her until she finally gives in!”, all I have to say is: What the heck is wrong with you?

Continually pestering someone after they’ve said already no isn't “analyzing their reasons”. It’s just violating their consent. That’s so unbelievably gross.

Sigdi keeps not saying explicitly "no". And instead giving bad reasons for not taking the regeneration immediately, before saying the real one that is clearly an emotional one and not a rational one. So it is perfectly understandable that Durkon, who became a cleric mostly to one day be able to cast this very spell on this very Sigdi, has a hard time understanding it and want to convince her to accept the spell.

And for us, you'll notice that most of us have said Sigdi was entitled to refuse the spell. Trying to understand why she refuses the cure and pointed out that the reasons are not rational is nothing at all like "violating her consent".

And seriously, this is Sigdi. Since when is she afraid of not being socially acceptable or not being confrontational with her son. She was perfectly able to be confrontational with both Durkon and Hilgya about the marriage proposal and Hilgya's killing of Durkon.

[Dion]

Sigdi keeps not saying explicitly "no".

But she is explicitly saying no.

She’s given lame and easily refutable reasons, but her answer is still explicitly no.

And trying to understand someone’s reasons and trying to convince them to change their mind are two really different things. Nobody said that Durkon can’t be curious why. But he’s certainly not entitled to an answer, and Sigdi is allowed to say no in any way that she’d like.

And she owes absolutely nobody a “rational” reason for her decision, for whatever the heck arbitrary definition of “rational” you might want to choose for the argument.

[Furious J]

Bravo!

Thanks!

Nine times out of ten, when I read the word "regeneration", that song (the original song, not my version above) starts rattling around in my brain. Had to do something about it!

[The Aboleth]

But she is explicitly saying no.

The only time she explicitly says "No" is when Durkon asks her if she doesn't want him to Regenerate her arm. She says, "No, it's just..." So you're kind of undercutting your own argument here.

Sigdi is very clearly open to the idea of getting her arm back, but still has some emotional baggage to sort through before she settles on a "Yes" or "No" answer. The conversation is therefore "paused" while Durkon goes off to save the world.

Should Durkon just Regenerate her arm anyway at this point? Of course not. Should he keep trying to convince her to let him do it? It wouldn't be wrong or immoral for him to do so, but it wouldn't be the best decision as the "Save the world" thing is clearly a higher priority right now.

Basically, this specific situation isn't as simple as some of you are saying. It's complicated and nuanced, as are most things in life. Boiling it down to "No means no" robs both Sigdi and Durkon of important character development in this scene, in my opinion.

[Dion]

Boiling it down to "No means no" robs both Sigdi and Durkon of important character development in this scene, in my opinion.

I’d argue that certain people are boiling it down to “well, I do t see her reason as rational, so I don’t respect it”, which seems to negate everything about the character.

Look, he’s gonna ask again. Sigdi herself said she expects him to. She might change her mind. She might even have two arms at her wedding. Who knows? I hope she does, because that would be nice.

But her reasons for refusing right now belong to her, and not to anyone else. Anyone who says that Durkon deserves more of an explanation, or that her explanations deserve to be challenged because they’re not “rational”, can stuff it.

[Schroeswald]

She might even have two arms at her wedding

Did, did I miss something? Cause Sigdi isn’t getting married anytime soon, her reasoning this strip and her reactions to Kandro’s proposals don’t sound like a women getting remarried anytime soon. In fact there is not a single wedding that seems to be coming up anytime soon, I just can’t figure out anything that might imply that she is getting married.

[Lord Torath]

Did, did I miss something? Cause Sigdi isn’t getting married anytime soon, her reasoning this strip and her reactions to Kandro’s proposals don’t sound like a women getting remarried anytime soon. In fact there is not a single wedding that seems to be coming up anytime soon, I just can’t figure out anything that might imply that she is getting married.

Maybe Dion's talking about Celia's wedding to Roy? I mean, they've never discussed it (with each other, that is, as Roy has discussed it with his dead mom), but I don't think either of them would be against getting married. Pretty sure Hilgya and Durkon aren't getting married, though.

[Peelee]

Why poison what is your first meeting with your beloved mother in 20 years, and well may be the last one ever over an issue which is not life threatening?

First face-to-face meeting in 20 years. They talk every week, so while I'm sure both are still ecstatic about seeing each other again, phrasing it the way you did gives a distinctly different impression.

[The Aboleth]

I’d argue that certain people are boiling it down to “well, I do t see her reason as rational, so I don’t respect it”, which seems to negate everything about the character.

....

But her reasons for refusing right now belong to her, and not to anyone else. Anyone who says that Durkon deserves more of an explanation, or that her explanations deserve to be challenged because they’re not “rational”, can stuff it.

Just as Sigdi is allowed to think her reason(s) are rational, others are allowed to feel the opposite. And again, asking for a further explanation is not "violating her autonomy" or anything. Debating the pros and cons of a course of action is a perfectly normal thing to do. So long as we accept that Durkon shouldn't/isn't going to Regenerate the arm without Sigdi's consent, it's perfectly acceptable (in my opinion) to try to convince her of the merits of accepting the spell (or it would be if they weren't in a literal Doomsday Clock scenario).

Far as I know, only one person has suggested forcefully casting Regenerate on Sigdi against her will; {scrubbed}

[Vendanna]

I think the main reason for sidgi to refuse the offer (she probably knew that durkon wants to cast it so bad since literally ages ago), is that she wants DURKON to have a motive to survive his confrontation and came back to cast the spell on her. (he is going to stop the destruction of the world, and self sacrificing is quite an expected outcome on that, more so in a dwarf!) So if a lil' baby is not an enough reason to come back, add in the "but if you don't return you will never cast the spell on me, and that will be chewing in your heart"

all in all, I suspect storywise that "regenerating his momma arm" is a goal for durkon that he hasn't yet covered the requisites for, thus the GM had to give a in story reason to avoid durkon being able to complete his quest.

[Dion]

Debating the pros and cons of a course of action is a perfectly normal thing to do

And I totally and 100% totally agree that each and every dwarve affected by Sigdi’s lack of an arm should get a full and free voice in that debate.

I think we just disagree slightly on the size of the group that qualifies to participate in that debate.

[Peelee]

And I totally and 100% totally agree that each and every dwarve affected by Sigdi’s lack of an arm should get a full and free voice in that debate.

I think we just disagree slightly on the size of the group that qualifies to participate in that debate.

I count at least three. All unnamed, alas.

[The Aboleth]

And I totally and 100% totally agree that each and every dwarve affected by Sigdi’s lack of an arm should get a full and free voice in that debate.

I think we just disagree slightly on the size of the group that qualifies to participate in that debate.

Yeah, I think we're about 99% on the same page. If I misunderstood your stance earlier, I apologize.