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Thread: A suitable nerf for orb spells?
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2019-11-04, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-11-04, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A suitable nerf for orb spells?
Note: Force Missile is a no-save, no-SR, auto-hit spell. (It's Evocation, but still no-SR.)
Heck, the Orb of Force was Evocation for about 2 months (since the release of Dragon Compendium and until the Spell Compendium was published) while still being no-SR
What's you will say about it?
Correction - RAW says: "Each creature in the area takes 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 15d6)."
Since that damage isn't instant, it may be mitigated or negated (or wounded enemy may just kill your PC first)
Oh, come on!
One spell per round, three rounds per encounter, three encounters per day. What kind of full caster is unable to cast 9 spells per day at level 6+?
Well...
- Tree spells per encounter. Three! Even if one or two spells wouldn't work, at least one solid hit is a given.
- "Golden staples." Color Spray, Glitterdust, Grease, Fog Cloud, Web... Pretty much infallible choices
- Rest of the party. Even if Wizard failed sometimes, it doesn't mean the fight is lost. It's not a sole adventure. (And even sole Wizard may have pets, cohorts, or hirelings)
Death Ward is 4th-level spell;
Silence - 2nd-level;
Protection from Evil - 1st-level.
"Less impact", ne?
My English is, apparently, insufficient to understand what's you're trying to say there
As I already pointed, in the average adventuring day, spellcaster wouldn't run out of spells since level 5 or 6
Which wouldn't even come online until - what, 9th level?
I presuming "actually Cleric" spells would be cast by the actual Cleric...
- Negative Energy Ray (Necromancy)
- Ray of Deanimation (Abjuration)
- Ray of Stupidity (Enchantment)
- Ray of Retaliation (Abjuration)
- Rust Ray (Transmutation)
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2019-11-04, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A suitable nerf for orb spells?
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2019-11-04, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A suitable nerf for orb spells?
There are still SR:No instantaneous conjurations in PF, and they actually make more sense than the orbs do. For example, Iron Stake from Ultimate Wilderness flings a cold iron spike at an enemy and the damage scales, while Clashing Rocks conjures up two giant boulders and slams them together with a creature caught in the middle.
This is what I think should be a model for replacing the orbs, if that's the goal - something that deals physical damage so that their ability to bypass SR and persist in an AMF makes sense, and also the high/scaling damage makes sense because the magic at the moment of creation is effectively sharpening/bulking and propelling the projectile(s). I would even be comfortable adding acid in here since you could theoretically conjure extremely corrosive non-magical acid and fling that.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2019-11-04, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A suitable nerf for orb spells?
Then just... don't do that? If you guys are chill like you say, then just tell him not to combine everything and the kitchen sink when using the orb spells. You can change the rules however you like, but ultimately it's only a problem if he stacks all that stuff with the orb spells. Just tell him not to do that for the sake of keeping things simple, and none of the individual parts of his build will need to be nerfed. Any time our groups have a high-level caster, we use an unspoken "Rule of Reasonable Restraint." Just don't do the ridiculous thing, and you won't have any problem. There really isn't any simpler or cleaner solution that that.
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2019-11-04, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A suitable nerf for orb spells?
Force Orb was printed in Unapproachable East in May 2003, Spell Compendium is December 2005. Complete Arcane is November 2004. Tome and Blood is July 2001. So the original X Orbs existed for nearly two years before a Forgotten Realms (a source of many spells, initially problematic or made so through many "revisions" by other people) book put out a Force version, which was the same but with lower max dice and no extra status effects. Then Complete Arcane creates the uber orbs a year after that, and then, finally, another year after that, Spell Compendium make the uber force version. That's three different "revisions" by three different groups of people over four years.
Force Missile, uh, allows SR, at least in the Spell Compendium version. I couldn't tell you about the original Dragon Mag version but I'd bet it does there too. It also deals guess how much damage? 1d6/2 levels (same average as Magic Missile but with a higher cap), or more specifically, 2d6/4 levels. Not a spell that is going to justify the uber orbs.
Correction - RAW says: "Each creature in the area takes 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 15d6)."
To be clear, it was you who brought up the number of dice in the spell, in response to Vaern:
Originally Posted by VaernOriginally Posted by ShurikVch
Since that damage isn't instant, it may be mitigated or negated (or wounded enemy may just kill your PC first)
Oh, come on!
One spell per round, three rounds per encounter, three encounters per day. What kind of full caster is unable to cast 9 spells per day at level 6+?
And let's actually check that: Wizard 6 has 4/3/3/2, with normal int progression improves to 4/4/4/3. That's 7 spells above 1st level, and no, I don't consider Sleep/Grease/Color Spray to be encounter crushing at that level, because actual monsters of that level will break the HD limit, hop over it, or are something that I'd love you to be within 15' of. And they have 4+ encounters to be ready for, not 3.
At 5th, since you did say 5-6, they lose two spells, so only 5.
And remember this thread is about uber orbs, not save-or-lose.
- Tree spells per encounter. Three! Even if one or two spells wouldn't work, at least one solid hit is a given.
- "Golden staples." Color Spray, Glitterdust, Grease, Fog Cloud, Web... Pretty much infallible choices
- Rest of the party. Even if Wizard failed sometimes, it doesn't mean the fight is lost. It's not a sole adventure. (And even sole Wizard may have pets, cohorts, or hirelings)
Death Ward is 4th-level spell;
Silence - 2nd-level;
Protection from Evil - 1st-level.
"Less impact", ne?
My English is, apparently, insufficient to understand what's you're trying to say there
Which wouldn't even come online until - what, 9th level?
I presuming "actually Cleric" spells would be cast by the actual Cleric...
- Negative Energy Ray (Necromancy)
- Ray of Deanimation (Abjuration)
- Ray of Stupidity (Enchantment)
- Ray of Retaliation (Abjuration)
- Rust Ray (Transmutation)
You have defeated my apparently ill-considered suggestion that rays are all evocations (by bringing up a bunch of splatbook spells printed long after the PHB and uber orbs, but still). Unfortunately none of those spells actually work for proving the idea that magical energy damage can be non-magical, as none of them deal energy damage (except for negative energy, which does not exist in real life and thus has a hard time saying it can be produced by non-magical means).
Indeed. I haven't gone over them looking for SR/no-SR, but my go-to example is always MM3, "the book of overpowered monsters," in which I expect plenty of monsters do have SR thrown on as an afterthought. Many of the monsters considered "par" by more powerful characters, the likes of which would employ Assay Resistance, are found in that book, or came out at a similar time I'd wager. I also wouldn't be surprised if some of the sentiment comes from extremely high level/epic play, where pretty much everything does have SR, because it's all greater demons and demigods- and the monsters need two layers of defense because PCs have 9th level spells and winning with one spell is lame.
Adjusting the CR of other monsters to match those you consider to be the true baseline should be obvious and common, if one understands that the MMs vary in power level. Of course since I take a baseline approach, I advocate PHB and MM1, not Assay Resistance and MM3.Last edited by Fizban; 2019-11-04 at 06:18 PM.
Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).