Unearthed Arcana 11/4

[Gignere]

The ability to swap your fighting style is amazing for published adventures, because they have a set list of magic items.

No Archer in the party? Sucks nobody can truly maximize that +2 Longbow. Nobody uses a sword and shield? Find the Sunblade? Such a shame the Paladin took Greatweapon Fighting and not Dueling.

This fixes that, in a huge way!

I guess I tailor the loots to the party even when using published materials. I even once dropped a holy avenger axe just because the Paladin of the party was a dwarf and he used nothing but axes even passing up better weapons to stick with an axe.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I guess I tailor the loots to the party even when using published materials. I even once dropped a holy avenger axe just because the Paladin of the party was a dwarf and he used nothing but axes even passing up better weapons to stick with an axe.

That makes you a good DM, but the poor AL adventurers really needed this to fix how strict the loot can be.

[Vorpalchicken]

I hate to be the one sour Sally in the group but I am really not impressed. The new features seem to be inconsequential, broken, or toe -stepping (especially spells, not counting when they didn't realize certain spells were already on class lists.)

I feel like nothing that needed to be fixed got fixed. (I think high level Rangers are the ones that need help for example. Giving low level Rangers treats only encourages dips.)

Yes swapping options is good but I was already allowing that.

[Sindal]

I hate to be the one sour Sally in the group but I am really not impressed. The new features seem to be inconsequential, broken, or toe -stepping (especially spells, not counting when they didn't realize certain spells were already on class lists.)

I feel like nothing that needed to be fixed got fixed. (I think high level Rangers are the ones that need help for example. Giving low level Rangers treats only encourages dips.)

Yes swapping options is good but I was already allowing that.

Fair.
Though a general concencus people didn't even like the low level treats. So we gotta start somewhere :D

[Gignere]

Fair.
Though a general concencus people didn't even like the low level treats. So we gotta start somewhere :D

Also UA is play test, generally what gets actually published is scaled back or comes online at a higher level. Like I could totally see the no concentrate hunter’s mark get shunted to level 6 ranger ability instead of level 1. Even the temp hps might turn into something that scales with ranger level instead of being so front loaded.

[Kane0]

More class features I'd like to see treated with alternatives and extensions:

Bard Countercharm
Cleric Divine Intervention
Fighter Indomitable
Monk Tongue of Sun and Moon
Ranger Camouflage and Vanish
Sorcerer Metamagic Versatility
Warlock Mystic Arcanum
And pretty much all the capstones

[Fnissalot]

I hate to be the one sour Sally in the group but I am really not impressed. The new features seem to be inconsequential, broken, or toe -stepping (especially spells, not counting when they didn't realize certain spells were already on class lists.)

I feel like nothing that needed to be fixed got fixed. (I think high level Rangers are the ones that need help for example. Giving low level Rangers treats only encourages dips.)

Yes swapping options is good but I was already allowing that.

Level 1 phb rangers are horrible. There is no reason to start playing one at first level, unless you are sure you will level up before the first fight. They needed a fix for that as well as for tier 3 and 4

Edit not related to quote:
Even if the beast hp is equal to (your Wis+beast con +5)*level, the beast has only either +1 or +2 in con and you will rarely max out Wis as rangers. At best it is 12*level which is good but not broken. I would even think the beast of Earth is a bit weak compared to the air one. I am looking forward to them adding one of water and one of fire.

[Kane0]

Even if the beast hp is equal to (your Wis+beast con +5)*level, the beast has only either +1 or +2 in con and you will rarely max out Wis as rangers. At best it is 12*level which is good but not broken. I would even think the beast of Earth is a bit weak compared to the air one. I am looking forward to them adding one of water and one of fire.

You could trade in your fighting style for Shillelagh and/or a damage cantrip, allowing you to focus more on Wis. The beast is actually pretty beastly even if you don't invest a lot in Wis though.

[Evaar]

Level 1 phb rangers are horrible. There is no reason to start playing one at first level, unless you are sure you will level up before the first fight. They needed a fix for that as well as for tier 3 and 4

Edit not related to quote:
Even if the beast hp is equal to (your Wis+beast con +5)*level, the beast has only either +1 or +2 in con and you will rarely max out Wis as rangers. At best it is 12*level which is good but not broken. I would even think the beast of Earth is a bit weak compared to the air one. I am looking forward to them adding one of water and one of fire.

I don't think the intent is that they are representative of the elements. You might get a water one for a swim speed, but it seems like the intent was ground beasts versus flying beasts. Fire isn't really an environment.

[Fnissalot]

You could trade in your fighting style for Shillelagh and/or a damage cantrip, allowing you to focus more on Wis. The beast is actually pretty beastly even if you don't invest a lot in Wis though.

I think, statistically, going ranged with the archery style or melee with duelist would end you up with more damage than going druid cantrips+wisdom. It is a nice trade-off and choice for the player. Both options are good for different reasons. I.e. I like it.

I don't say that the beast is bad, just that pushing it that far would neither be bad or broken.

[Hytheter]

So an almost-certainly unintended "feature" of Martial Versatility someone alerted me to: technically, the fighting style you are changing does not have to come from the class you are levelling in. This means you could turn a fighting style gained from one class into another style which should be inaccessible to that class.

For example, a level 2 Paladin multiclasses into Fighter. As his Fighter's level 1 fighting style he picks Superior Technique, and then using Martial Versatility changes the style he got from paladin into TWF. Neither TWF or Superior Technique are available to be selected by Paladins, but regardless this paladin has both.

This may have some use for paladins, rangers, and most notably swords bards (who otherwise have very little choice in fighting style). A Fighter 1 dip can convert their styles into almost any other. Mixing between them might also have some possibilities, like a (predominantly) ranger with Blessed Warrior and GWF.

I think technically you don't even need to actually reach the level you get the fighting style at, so even a Ranger 1 dip could turn a Paladin's FS into Druidic Warrior or Archery.

Personally, I don't think this is overpowered and might enable some specific builds. Any thoughts?

[Lyracian]

Clerics Blessed Strikes isn’t quite as good as you may think for weapon attacks: Divine Strike scales at both lv8 and lv14, but Blessed Strikes is a boost only at level 8. Still a solid option for Domains that DO get Divine Strike that want to use Cantrips as opposed to weapons, but not vice-versa.

It does not get a boost at level 14 however Divine Strike only works with weapon attacks. Blessed Strike will works on which ever damage gets through. If you have Spirit Weapon, Spirit Guardian and a Weapon Attack that is three chances of getting to triggeer Blessed Strike. Also you can use your action for casting spells, dodge or healing and still get the damage to trigger. For me that more than makes up for the difference.

Secondly, and this will depend more on your group/play style, how much of your campaign is going to be at level 14+? Levels 10-12 seems to be a common stopping point.

[jaappleton]

As far as impact on the game....

Is this the biggest UA ever?

[GorogIrongut]

To the individual/s comparing the efficacy of damage from smite to the 10m Spirit Guardians, you do realize the damage isn't remotely comparable right? Sure a nova is great against a dragon. But when dealing with any kind of numbers, which considering how action economy works is a big deal, SG will always win. I play clerics all the time and when confronted with the choice between SG and any other spell, the answer is always SG. 10 minutes of AoE damage can hit a lot of mooks. It can hit lots of middling opponents. It can hit lots of high level opponents. It doesn't discriminate.

Even if you were in combat for one out of those ten minutes and there were only three creatures in it's AoE (I'm averaging way down compared to what I've seen and done) for those 10 rounds. And half of those creatures made their saves (i.e. half damage) that's:
10 x 9d8 radiant damage.
Half saved brings that down 10 x (4.5+2.25) 6.75 d8 of radiant damage.
67.5 x the average roll of a d8 which is 4.5 = 303.75 radiant damage.
Even if you were to lower the odds of this by having the cleric/paladin lose concentration on the spell halfway through the mark, that would still be 150.375 damage before we talked about any of the movement reducing effects. Which in my experience ends up keeping creatures in the AoE longer and thus suffering more damage. That's before we even talk about the field control side of the spell.

And according to this UA, it was just given wholesale to Paladins. Who are always going to be in the thick of combat, where opponents most are. So they can pop SG once the chance of combat will appear, and hold it for 10 minutes give or take while fighting and smiting to their heart's delight. They will reap. As they have always done. Because they're a top tier class in this edition. But with the addition of SG, they will reap SO much harder.

[Kane0]

So an almost-certainly unintended "feature" of Martial Versatility someone alerted me to: technically, the fighting style you are changing does not have to come from the class you are levelling in. This means you could turn a fighting style gained from one class into another style which should be inaccessible to that class.

For example, a level 2 Paladin multiclasses into Fighter. As his Fighter's level 1 fighting style he picks Superior Technique, and then using Martial Versatility changes the style he got from paladin into TWF. Neither TWF or Superior Technique are available to be selected by Paladins, but regardless this paladin has both.

This may have some use for paladins, rangers, and most notably swords bards (who otherwise have very little choice in fighting style). A Fighter 1 dip can convert their styles into almost any other. Mixing between them might also have some possibilities, like a (predominantly) ranger with Blessed Warrior and GWF.

I think technically you don't even need to actually reach the level you get the fighting style at, so even a Ranger 1 dip could turn a Paladin's FS into Druidic Warrior or Archery.

Personally, I don't think this is overpowered and might enable some specific builds. Any thoughts?

I've been allowing all styles for all classes that get them for about 3 years now, so I don't have a problem with it

As far as impact on the game....

Is this the biggest UA ever?

Safe bet to say, yes.

[Hytheter]

More class features I'd like to see treated with alternatives and extensions:

Bard Countercharm
Cleric Divine Intervention
Fighter Indomitable
Monk Tongue of Sun and Moon
Ranger Camouflage and Vanish
Sorcerer Metamagic Versatility
Warlock Mystic Arcanum
And pretty much all the capstones

Maybe controversial, but I'd like to see some replacements for extra attack. Some concepts or builds don't really lend themselves to multiple attacks, and it would make deep Martial/Martial multis more appealing since there's no dead level.

Though I suppose it would be a tough balancing act to make features that are viable over extra attack without being OP in combination with extra attack.

[Kane0]

Maybe controversial, but I'd like to see some replacements for extra attack. Some concepts or builds don't really lend themselves to multiple attacks, and it would make deep Martial/Martial multis more appealing since there's no dead level.

Though I suppose it would be a tough balancing act to make features that are viable over extra attack without being OP in combination with extra attack.

Very good point, I'd take that in a heartbeat to encourage MCing between martial classes beyond dips. For years I've been houseruling that you get a +1 to a stat (basically a half ASI) whenever you would otherwise double up on EA.

[Hytheter]

I've been allowing all styles for all classes that get them for about 3 years now, so I don't have a problem with it

For years I've been houseruling that you get a +1 to a stat (basically a half ASI) whenever you would otherwise double up on EA.

See, the problem is, I am not a player in your games and thus cannot benefit from your houserules. :(

Besides the recent additions, I don't really see why fighting styles should be barred from classes anyway. Sure, GWF is a little off-brand for rangers, and likewise archery for paladins, but there's no harm in letting them break the mold.

[Ravinsild]

See, the problem is, I am not a player in your games and thus cannot benefit from your houserules. :(

Besides the recent additions, I don't really see why fighting styles should be barred from classes anyway. Sure, GWF is a little off-brand for rangers, and likewise archery for paladins, but there's no harm in letting them break the mold.

Welp. Somehow I forgot or just didn't notice that Rangers DONT get GWF which feels weird. Because I thought big spear wielding guy or big sword guy was a ranger thing in my head for some reason. Glaive/Polearm/Spear/Greatsword (Aragorn?) etc..

[dreast]

Welp. Somehow I forgot or just didn't notice that Rangers DONT get GWF which feels weird. Because I thought big spear wielding guy or big sword guy was a ranger thing in my head for some reason. Glaive/Polearm/Spear/Greatsword (Aragorn?) etc..

“No effect? I need bigger sword...”

[Cynthaer]

So an almost-certainly unintended "feature" of Martial Versatility someone alerted me to: technically, the fighting style you are changing does not have to come from the class you are levelling in. This means you could turn a fighting style gained from one class into another style which should be inaccessible to that class.

For example, a level 2 Paladin multiclasses into Fighter. As his Fighter's level 1 fighting style he picks Superior Technique, and then using Martial Versatility changes the style he got from paladin into TWF. Neither TWF or Superior Technique are available to be selected by Paladins, but regardless this paladin has both.

This may have some use for paladins, rangers, and most notably swords bards (who otherwise have very little choice in fighting style). A Fighter 1 dip can convert their styles into almost any other. Mixing between them might also have some possibilities, like a (predominantly) ranger with Blessed Warrior and GWF.

I think technically you don't even need to actually reach the level you get the fighting style at, so even a Ranger 1 dip could turn a Paladin's FS into Druidic Warrior or Archery.

Personally, I don't think this is overpowered and might enable some specific builds. Any thoughts?

Two answers, IMO.

The first is, yeah, sure, go nuts. All the fighting styles are broadly equal in power, so if you have 2 FS for some reason and they're both from some class(es) you have, I don't particularly care which ones are which. As a DM, I'd allow that on its own merits, and some weird hack involving ambiguous rules wording is irrelevant to me.

(Really, I don't need a reason other than "I really wanna try a ranged paladin; can I take Archery as her fighting style?")

The second is, I'm sure they'll clean up the wording before publishing. Something like this:

Whenever you gain a level in a class that has the Fighting Style feature, you can replace a fighting style you know from that feature with another style available to your that class.

I don't think they'll close that loophole because it's overpowered, but because it's ambiguous, unintuitive, and incentivizes bizarre fighter dip shenanigans to exploit a raw mechanical hack. That's generally bad game design.

[Ravinsild]

“No effect? I need bigger sword...”

LOL. I feel like my life is a lie. Maybe it got it from like multiclassing fighter? I really don't know. I'm disappointed in life right now.

[Waterdeep Merch]

To the individual/s comparing the efficacy of damage from smite to the 10m Spirit Guardians, you do realize the damage isn't remotely comparable right? Sure a nova is great against a dragon. But when dealing with any kind of numbers, which considering how action economy works is a big deal, SG will always win. I play clerics all the time and when confronted with the choice between SG and any other spell, the answer is always SG. 10 minutes of AoE damage can hit a lot of mooks. It can hit lots of middling opponents. It can hit lots of high level opponents. It doesn't discriminate.

Even if you were in combat for one out of those ten minutes and there were only three creatures in it's AoE (I'm averaging way down compared to what I've seen and done) for those 10 rounds. And half of those creatures made their saves (i.e. half damage) that's:
10 x 9d8 radiant damage.
Half saved brings that down 10 x (4.5+2.25) 6.75 d8 of radiant damage.
67.5 x the average roll of a d8 which is 4.5 = 303.75 radiant damage.
Even if you were to lower the odds of this by having the cleric/paladin lose concentration on the spell halfway through the mark, that would still be 150.375 damage before we talked about any of the movement reducing effects. Which in my experience ends up keeping creatures in the AoE longer and thus suffering more damage. That's before we even talk about the field control side of the spell.

But you aren't likely to even get an entire minute out of SG under normal circumstances, and it's not just because concentration can be smacked out of you.

Your average fight just doesn't take that long. Meanwhile, searching a room does. Checking for traps does. Lockpicking the door to the next group of monsters to thwack does. You're looking at two fights on average under normal circumstances, and neither is likely to last longer than 3 rounds. The few that do are usually going to be packing a wallop (things like dragon fights), and that means you're at a greater risk of losing concentration and thus SG anyway. Having it precast means enemies can see it coming and avoid it however they can, too (15 feet is a big aura, but it's rarely the whole room). While a Dexadin might, RAW, be able to sneak with that thing going off, your average DM will protest at enemies not seeing all those ghosts flitting around. And considering the paladin gets this at 9th level, 3d8 a round just isn't very impressive for damage purposes.

The damage quotes from it are way too white room for my tastes. You only get to see those big numbers after enough enemies stand around for a ludicrous amount of time in your aura and fail every single save, still alive and actively trying to kill you in the mean time. It's not horrible, but calling this broken, especially on a paladin, is failing to recognize the serious gaps in using this offensively.

I haven't seen anyone call the Crown Oath busted, after all.

[Ravinsild]

I haven't seen anyone call the Crown Oath busted, after all.

I haven't seen anyone all Crown Oath anything, tbh. I kind of forgot it existed...

[Waterdeep Merch]

I haven't seen anyone all Crown Oath anything, tbh. I kind of forgot it existed...

I've actively tried to find a good use for it for years. Spirit Guardians is certainly a high point for them, but it has never saved them.

[Gignere]

Anyway besides crown of the oath all Orzhav Paladins, hell all Orzhav spellcasters gets Spirit Guardians.

[stoutstien]

More class features I'd like to see treated with alternatives and extensions:

Bard Countercharm
Cleric Divine Intervention
Fighter Indomitable
Monk Tongue of Sun and Moon
Ranger Camouflage and Vanish
Sorcerer Metamagic Versatility
Warlock Mystic Arcanum
And pretty much all the capstones

Pretty much. I'd add frenzy barbarian and PBK to this.
Also still no expanded spell list for phb rangers? I know they basically have prepared spells lite but still.

[Kane0]

Oh I didn't do subclasses otherwise i would have been there all day
Just straight up swapping ranger to spells prepared would have been a great alternative really, but then they'd have to think of another replacement for Primal Awareness

[Greywander]

I'm sure this has already been mentioned, but I just noticed that Blessed Strikes doesn't just work for cantrips, doesn't just work for cleric spells, it works for any spell, from any class.

My guess is that the final version will probably restrict it to just cleric cantrips, or at the very least, cleric spells. Until then, though...

[T.G. Oskar]

The ability to do 3d8 radiant damage (and still does half on a save) in a fairly large AOE every round for up to 10 rounds while also slowing your enemies for the cost of only a level 3 spell slot is an incredibly powerful spell, balanced by the relatively low damage of other cleric spells. When you put a spell that powerful on a class like the Paladin who already has some of the best damage in the game and incredible utility, and by the way, superior concentration saves thanks to their aura, it's too much. I'd argue it's too much on the Oath of the Crown too.

Compare a Spirit Guardians to a fireball. A fireball does 8d6 damage, an average of 28, in a slightly larger area, but hits your friends and it's a damage type that's one of the most likely to be resisted. Spirit Guardians does 3d8, which is 13.5 average damage, so after only two rounds it has almost done enough damage to catch up with fireball, and it has the ability to move with the character, and is a damage type that's exceedingly unlikely to be resisted. I've had combats where I did 8 rounds of Spirit Guardians damage on my Forge Cleric. And once you cast it, you don't have to use any further actions to continue to do that damage as you chase enemies around the battlefield.

On a cleric, you pair that with maybe a Toll the Dead and a Spiritual Weapon. Powerful when all taken together? Yes. But a paladin can deal great weapon damage, boosted by improved divine smite and divine smite. Plus you're a freaking paladin.

I'll resume what others have said: a) it's a 3rd-level spell (meaning you don't get access to it until after level 9) that b) requires concentration (which means you can't use your Smite spells, though you can still use your spell slots for Divine Smite; it only means you can't use Blinding/Wrathful/Searing Smite, et als.), which c) deals 3d8 over time, with a Wis save for half damage (on a class that has to split between Strength, Constitution and Charisma). It slows down enemies, meaning that you'll be the most likely target; one thing is to get one Con save to maintain concentration with Aura of Protection and your Con save for it, another is to get up to four or five each turn, which makes it more likely to fail the save, therefore breaking concentration. And, in the meanwhile, you get a good amount of spells on 3rd level for Paladins, without counting Oath spells - meaning d) you have competition on those few spell slots.

What you argue is that you're adding a spell that deals DoT on a frontliner who can do nova damage. Excellent. Spending one of your actions and a 3rd level or higher spell slot in the hopes that you'll do Fireball damage, when by the same time you could have a Wizard cast Evard's Black Tentacles and end the battle in ONE CAST, two levels before, doesn't make it any more broken than the option I've given (and the Wizard will have 1 more slot to cast that spell by the time you reach 9th level). My concern is that I've seen posters essentially equating this to "this makes the Paladin broken!".

If the argument is that you're adding a strong option to a class that's already very strong, then the issue isn't that adding the spell makes the class strong; it's that the class itself is strong. Adding the spell doesn't make the class more powerful if it's already powerful. That said: the power of the Paladin depends greatly on its use of spell slots to fuel their Smites, which goes contrary to the argument, since you'd have to consider whether you'd want to spend the slot on a spell, or on a Smite that can kill the most important enemy in one blow, IF you happen to land the hit and/or a crit.

So, in short; I don't think anyone argues that the spell isn't great, or that it's very good for a Paladin; I only argue that the reaction to adding Spirit Guardians to a Paladin is vastly overblown. It's great that a Paladin gets a source of effective crowd control that helps their function as a tank; it's overblown to think that adding such a spell is tantamount to breaking the game in half.