Advice on Swashbuckler build

[gmachamer]

I'm trying to decide what to do with my swashbuckler and need some advice.

Party Make up:
Wizard
Paladin
Barbarian
Rogue (me)
Druid (UA playtest circle of wildfire)

The group I'm playing with is far from min/max. I'm consistently out damaging everyone and don't see that changing. I want to mix things up a little bit so I don't pull too far ahead. To do this I was thinking about dipping a couple levels into a caster class.

Dex 18 Cha 16 Int 13, I don't want to for purely RP reasons pick up any warlock levels. Which leaves me considering Bard and Sorcerer.

Pretty low magic setting, so I was thinking 1 or 3 levels of dragon sorc for the base 13 AC (2nd for meta, then why not one more for 2nd lvl spells).. this would raise my AC and give me access to shield spell plus some additional utility. Shield being V,S would make me need to drop my second weapon before casting it, but if I'm casting it, it would be because I really needed it. DM is willing to work with me on an encounter that could cause my dragon origin to come out. This would add some utility and more defense.

Alternatively 3 levels of bard could be interesting. College of swords for weapon style plus flourish. I could inspire others if need be, I would have some useful spells for a rogue and my sword could be my focus, though primarily out of combat spells or rituals would be my main use. So less defense than sorcerer, but more utility.

Neither of these options are optimal, but I think either could add flavor and utility to my character without taking too much away from it. I'm not looking to increase my damage output, but would like to aid others where possible.

Another bit of info that can effect the decision, the ASI levels do not come into play here because house rule is that the ones that everyone gets are based off total character level, so just my 10th level rogue one would be delayed.

Thanks for any input or thoughts.

[Daphne]

The group I'm playing with is far from min/max. I'm consistently out damaging everyone and don't see that changing.

What's your level?

[gmachamer]

What's your level?

Strange, I thought I put that in the post. I just hit level 4, but have not applied it yet. I'm trying to decide what/when to dip. Now or after level 5 or 7... or of course not to dip is always an option.

Before you go there, I agree that 3 levels is not a very good sample size to assume that I will continue to out damage everyone after they get 2nd or 3rd attacks or more powerful spells. BUT, I still think it's going to turn out true.

[Keravath]

Strange, I thought I put that in the post. I just hit level 4, but have not applied it yet. I'm trying to decide what/when to dip. Now or after level 5 or 7... or of course not to dip is always an option.

Before you go there, I agree that 3 levels is not a very good sample size to assume that I will continue to out damage everyone after they get 2nd or 3rd attacks or more powerful spells. BUT, I still think it's going to turn out true.

Unfortunately, it is not. :)

At level 5 the paladin will get extra attack which doubles their damage output. You will have 3d6 sneak damage. If the paladin is sword and board then d8+4 damage if they boosted their attack stat at level 4. With sword and board though they might have taken the dueling fighting style for d8+6. Average damage from d8+6 is 10.5. Average damage from 3d6 is also 10.5. This assumes that you can land your sneak attack. If the paladin is using a two handed sword then their damage is 2d6+4 which averages 11 damage. However, if the paladin chooses the PAM feat then they get an extra attack and their damage will be higher. A paladin also has the option to smite on every hit.

Up until level 4, the rogues damage will out shine a regular martial class with one attack. Assuming that the rogue can manage to set up conditions where they are eligible for sneak attack.

At level 11, paladins get improved divine smite while fighters get a third attack.

Leaving aside sharpshooter and GWM which can inflate damage, the rogue remains competitive through tier2 but isn't going to out shine or do significantly more damage than everyone else.

This is especially true when you compare to an 8d6 fireball cast by a wizard or sorcerer landing on several opponents at once, or a caster landing a particularly well placed hypnotic pattern where many opponents fail the save.

If you want to multiclass to sorcerer because that fits the character and you would like some of the abilities and think it would be fun then go for it. If you are thinking of it as a way to "nerf" your character because you are forever going to be doing more damage than the rest of your party ... I would rethink it.

P.S. I have a level 16 character - 11 arcane trickers/5 fey warlock that does reasonably well on the martial/damage front but I am often out damaged by comparable level paladins/fighters/barbarians with GWM/IDS and other abilities. I often get more mileage from the arcane trickster level 9 feature that gives targets disadvantage on saving throws if I am hidden from them when I cast. This really enhances the ability of spells like hypnotic pattern.

At low level, rogues feel like they do awesome damage (and they do relative to characters without feats at level 1-4) but the differential is a lot less later on.

[Teaguethebean]

BUT, I still think it's going to turn out true.

If you want it to remain true quicken/twin booming blade from sorcerer can make that happen or whispers bard can add some psuedo smites that do psychic damage.

[da newt]

I wouldn't MC until after uncanny dodge. Sorc could be a bunch of fun. BB or similar cantrip is really handy for melee rogues, and then shadow blade ...

[Misterwhisper]

With that party set up you are going to be the skill king.
No bard in the group so you are probably going to be the talker unless the paladin put a lot in cha.
You are probably the only one with good stealth.
The only one with expertise.

The big thing is though that almost everyone else is melee based, paladin and barbarian are almost exclusively melee.
The group probably needs an archer more than a fencer type so carry a bow.

Swashbuckler is great, probably my favorite subclass for rogues, however don’t center only on melee.

Straight rogue works fine, But I would look at the new ua ranger changes and might work in a few levels of that.

[gmachamer]

Unfortunately, it is not. :)

At level 5 the paladin will get extra attack which doubles their damage output. You will have 3d6 sneak damage. If the paladin is sword and board then d8+4 damage if they boosted their attack stat at level 4. With sword and board though they might have taken the dueling fighting style for d8+6. Average damage from d8+6 is 10.5. Average damage from 3d6 is also 10.5. This assumes that you can land your sneak attack. If the paladin is using a two handed sword then their damage is 2d6+4 which averages 11 damage. However, if the paladin chooses the PAM feat then they get an extra attack and their damage will be higher. A paladin also has the option to smite on every hit.

Up until level 4, the rogues damage will out shine a regular martial class with one attack. Assuming that the rogue can manage to set up conditions where they are eligible for sneak attack.

At level 11, paladins get improved divine smite while fighters get a third attack.

Leaving aside sharpshooter and GWM which can inflate damage, the rogue remains competitive through tier2 but isn't going to out shine or do significantly more damage than everyone else.

This is especially true when you compare to an 8d6 fireball cast by a wizard or sorcerer landing on several opponents at once, or a caster landing a particularly well placed hypnotic pattern where many opponents fail the save.

If you want to multiclass to sorcerer because that fits the character and you would like some of the abilities and think it would be fun then go for it. If you are thinking of it as a way to "nerf" your character because you are forever going to be doing more damage than the rest of your party ... I would rethink it.

P.S. I have a level 16 character - 11 arcane trickers/5 fey warlock that does reasonably well on the martial/damage front but I am often out damaged by comparable level paladins/fighters/barbarians with GWM/IDS and other abilities. I often get more mileage from the arcane trickster level 9 feature that gives targets disadvantage on saving throws if I am hidden from them when I cast. This really enhances the ability of spells like hypnotic pattern.

At low level, rogues feel like they do awesome damage (and they do relative to characters without feats at level 1-4) but the differential is a lot less later on.

All very valid points. Paladin went protection and has not used smite yet, but you are right, they could with a second attack catch up, but it's a pretty limited resource as apposed to my sneak attack which while not guaranteed, is not hard to ensure it gets applied on a hit. I use a shortsword and dagger, so two chances to hit with it.

Also, sure a fireball can do some serious damage, but again, we are talking about limited resources.

I would not say I was trying to "Nerf" my character, but perhaps that is somewhat accurate. I level or 3 of another class will drop my average damage down a little bit, but will give me more options than just sticking my sword in somebody in combat and give me even more things to do outside of combat.. I originally was leaning towards Sorcerer, but DM won't let me dip to Sorcerer until an opportunity to explain my origin comes about. He said if I want to do it, he should be able to work it in before 5th though.. so I looked at bard to multi class sooner and because of more 1st level spells known and ability to ritual cast.. but waiting until after 5th or even 7th level makes a lot of sense for the Rogue abilities.

So I think the best plan might be to go ahead and wait for uncanny dodge at 5th, by the time 6th roles around the Paladin and Barbarian will both have spiked their damage. My role in the party will be a bit more defined and I can make a better informed decision.

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

[gmachamer]

I wouldn't MC until after uncanny dodge. Sorc could be a bunch of fun. BB or similar cantrip is really handy for melee rogues, and then shadow blade ...

Yea, uncanny dodge would be nice to get first, I'm pretty squishy.

[gmachamer]

Coming back to this post since I've hit 5th level and the Barb/Pally have a second attack. They both have at times out damaged me, but my damage is more consistent. It's not quite a fair comparison because I have 20 DEX and they both have 16 STR due to them both taking a feat instead of bumping strength.

My plan is just 1 lvl of Dragon sorcerer. We "accidentally" wandered into somewhere we shouldn't have and I got one shot by a green dragon. Party pulled me out and healed me, but gives me a good role playing option for dragon sorcerer. I'll grab booming blade, minor illusion, prestidigitation, mage hand, shield, and fog cloud to give me some other options.

I'm also considering dipping one level of fighter. I was thinking defense style for +1 ac, but alternatively I could take archery style for the +2 to attack from range since I would already "have" +1 studded leather from dragon sorcerer that defensive style wouldn't stack with.

I would also have the option of going shield + rapier if I thought I needed the extra AC for a specific battle.

a one or two level dip would not really cost me much and I think would give me enough more stuff to make it worth it. I really want to dip sorcerer, but just not sure if the fighter is worth it or not.

Thoughts?

[Flashkannon]

You could always use your level 4 ASI to pick up a Magic Initiate feat - that's three cantrips plus a level 1 spell once per day, which is not shabby. For damage, Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade might be pretty good, but you still have two cantrips plus a 1st level spell left over after that. If you pick Wizard, maybe your 1st level can be Find Familiar? A familiar's Help action can be a great source of Advantage both in and out of the battlefield. Plus, cool pet!

And maybe pick up one of those endlessly useful cantrips like Mold Earth or Shape Water, while you're at it.

[CTurbo]

I have played a Swashbuckler with a single level of Draco Sorcerer and it's a great combo. Minor Illusion, Control Flames, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Shield, Disguise Self, and AC 13 + Dex are all great things for a Rogue to have. It was smart to go Rogue 5 first before mutliclassing.

I wouldn't multiclass into Fighter purely for a shield. Take 2 levels if you do it all at for Action Surge. 3 levels for Battle Master gets you Riposte which allows you to use Sneak Attack damage twice in a round.

If you happen to have a 13 Wis, a small Cleric dip would be great. You'd get Guidance, BLESS, and of course shields. Being able to add a great concentration spell to a Rogue is very much worth it.

[Misterwhisper]

I have played a Swashbuckler with a single level of Draco Sorcerer and it's a great combo. Minor Illusion, Control Flames, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Shield, Disguise Self, and AC 13 + Dex are all great things for a Rogue to have. It was smart to go Rogue 5 first before mutliclassing.

I wouldn't multiclass into Fighter purely for a shield. Take 2 levels if you do it all at for Action Surge. 3 levels for Battle Master gets you Riposte which allows you to use Sneak Attack damage twice in a round.

If you happen to have a 13 Wis, a small Cleric dip would be great. You'd get Guidance, BLESS, and of course shields. Being able to add a great concentration spell to a Rogue is very much worth it.

Could just take one level of hexblade and be a charisma based rogue swashbuckler.

[CTurbo]

Could just take one level of hexblade and be a charisma based rogue swashbuckler.

His Dex is already 20 while his Cha is still 16, and he said he didn't want to go Warlock.

[Talionis]

In this party you are the face and skill monkey. I would embrace those roles.

I would stay clear of Sorcerer, it’s a pure casting class that will feel watered down on your Swashbuckler chassis. The only thing you could want from Sorcerer is Subtle Spell.

Warlock is what I would suggest, Hex is a great spell for skill monkeys. The damage will make up for losing a level or two of Rogue, but giving an opponent disadvantage on skill checks is why you’d want it. In addition you can pick up Greenflame Blade of Booming Blade Cantrips. The second level of Warlock opens up Invocations which are great for skill monkeys. The level one patron abilities are mostly very good as well. With options like Celestial you don’t have to role play selling your soul.

I do see Bard as viable since it can give you even more expertise.

[gmachamer]

I have played a Swashbuckler with a single level of Draco Sorcerer and it's a great combo. Minor Illusion, Control Flames, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Shield, Disguise Self, and AC 13 + Dex are all great things for a Rogue to have. It was smart to go Rogue 5 first before mutliclassing.

I wouldn't multiclass into Fighter purely for a shield. Take 2 levels if you do it all at for Action Surge. 3 levels for Battle Master gets you Riposte which allows you to use Sneak Attack damage twice in a round.

If you happen to have a 13 Wis, a small Cleric dip would be great. You'd get Guidance, BLESS, and of course shields. Being able to add a great concentration spell to a Rogue is very much worth it.

3 level for Battle Master and Riposte is an interesting thought... though I would be tempted to instead go EK if I went to 3. I do think that you are right that maybe one level might be a bad call. Either don't, or take 2 or 3.

[gmachamer]

In this party you are the face and skill monkey. I would embrace those roles.

I would stay clear of Sorcerer, it’s a pure casting class that will feel watered down on your Swashbuckler chassis. The only thing you could want from Sorcerer is Subtle Spell.

Warlock is what I would suggest, Hex is a great spell for skill monkeys. The damage will make up for losing a level or two of Rogue, but giving an opponent disadvantage on skill checks is why you’d want it. In addition you can pick up Greenflame Blade of Booming Blade Cantrips. The second level of Warlock opens up Invocations which are great for skill monkeys. The level one patron abilities are mostly very good as well. With options like Celestial you don’t have to role play selling your soul.

I do see Bard as viable since it can give you even more expertise.

I'm not sure why it would feel watered down as I'm not picking spells that would really be level dependent. The cantrips should always be useful, same with Shield. Fog cloud maybe not, but I think the cost of dipping one level is well worth what I'll pick up. Yes, warlock would be a good option if I was just trying to make my character stronger, but sorcerer fits my character idea better.

[gmachamer]

You could always use your level 4 ASI to pick up a Magic Initiate feat - that's three cantrips plus a level 1 spell once per day, which is not shabby. For damage, Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade might be pretty good, but you still have two cantrips plus a 1st level spell left over after that. If you pick Wizard, maybe your 1st level can be Find Familiar? A familiar's Help action can be a great source of Advantage both in and out of the battlefield. Plus, cool pet!

And maybe pick up one of those endlessly useful cantrips like Mold Earth or Shape Water, while you're at it.

I thought about the Magic Initiative feat and have not completely ruled it out. Find familiar would be interesting, but I have not talked with the GM about how he would handle that. I was really interesting in SHIELD a couple times a day, so not sure I want to downgrade my casting.

[sambojin]

If you could re-do it, and you have at least 13-14Wis, I would have recommended War Cleric 2.

Gives 1-2 bonus action attacks a day (kinda bad, but can help even out your sneak attack damage a little).
All the weapons and armour and shields (may as well have the options)
1/sr +10 to-hit. So you auto-SA when you want to, 2-3 times a day. It's really, very good.
Shield of Faith (10mins of +2AC, bonus action cast) or your own Bless for +to-hit, 3 times a day, plus guidance for more skillmonkeying.

With all those thingies available (especially the auto-stab), you can keep up pretty well. If you want to go the whole hog, you could go 3 levels and get advantage on Dex checks (including initiative) for an hour, twice a day from Enhance Ability. Or Cha for super-talky. Kinda handy on a rogue, to make "pretty likely" into "almost definitely" on heaps of the stuff you do. Probably best to just keep levelling up into Rogue by then though. You've "nerfed" your build enough by being to auto-stab stuff :)


(if any of these things were written up as Rogue abilities, people would say the class was busted-good. Especially just the 2lvl War dip. I mean, auto-stab is a Swashbuckler lvl17 ability, and a Rogue lvl20 one. Have a different form of it at lvl7 with Swash 5/War 2)

[gmachamer]

If you could re-do it, and you have at least 13-14Wis, I would have recommended War Cleric 2.

Gives 1-2 bonus action attacks a day (kinda bad, but can help even out your sneak attack damage a little).
All the weapons and armour and shields (may as well have the options)
1/sr +10 to-hit. So you auto-SA when you want to, 2-3 times a day. It's really, very good.
Shield of Faith (10mins of +2AC, bonus action cast) or your own Bless for +to-hit, 3 times a day, plus guidance for more skillmonkeying.

With all those thingies available (especially the auto-stab), you can keep up pretty well. If you want to go the whole hog, you could go 3 levels and get advantage on Dex checks (including initiative) for an hour, twice a day from Enhance Ability. Or Cha for super-talky. Kinda handy on a rogue, to make "pretty likely" into "almost definitely" on heaps of the stuff you do. Probably best to just keep levelling up into Rogue by then though. You've "nerfed" your build enough by being to auto-stab stuff :)


(if any of these things were written up as Rogue abilities, people would say the class was busted-good. Especially just the 2lvl War dip. I mean, auto-stab is a Swashbuckler lvl17 ability, and a Rogue lvl20 one. Have a different form of it at lvl7 with Swash 5/War 2)

Unfortunately I do not have 13 WIS, so that is not an option. It does look like a cool option though. Also, I think my GM would not be very keen on me dipping war cleric. I don't think I could justify it at all with my characters actions/behavior in the past. Sorcerer I've got covered.. Cleric, not so much.

[Expired]

I don't think it's necessary to intentionally nerf yourself. It might be better to have an optimized character but hold yourself back intentionally and only fight at full capacity if there is real danger. Maybe flavor it as intentionally handicapping yourself as training (e.g. wearing very heavy weights while fighting or using a non-dominant hand). For those who need inspiration, good examples are Rock Lee from Naruto and Kenpachin Zaraki from Bleach.

If you insist on doing so, definitely multi-class into something using your primary score (Dex) or secondary score (Cha) so Fighter, Bard, Sorcerer, or Warlock are all good choices.

[gmachamer]

I don't think it's necessary to intentionally nerf yourself. It might be better to have an optimized character but hold yourself back intentionally and only fight at full capacity if there is real danger. Maybe flavor it as intentionally handicapping yourself as training (e.g. wearing very heavy weights while fighting or using a non-dominant hand). For those who need inspiration, good examples are Rock Lee from Naruto and Kenpachin Zaraki from Bleach.

If you insist on doing so, definitely multi-class into something using your primary score (Dex) or secondary score (Cha) so Fighter, Bard, Sorcerer, or Warlock are all good choices.

Again, intentionally nerfing myself is not really what I'm trying to do.. it's more that I want to add flavor/utility to my character without worrying completely about optimization. Pretty sure I've made up my mind to go Dragon Sorcerer for just 1 level.

Thanks