Explain to me the value of a monk

[Sigreid]

So, has anyone listed the value of the monk as being the fun of pretending to be a highly mobile individual that can bend physics matrix style and face demons and dragons with his bare fists?

[HiveStriker]

Just don't do what one of my party members is doing (we're at 2nd level) - she's a Fighter 1/Monk 1 who is planning on going the rest of the way in Monk (specifically Kensei).

Her character is still wearing her chainmail. So the first level of Monk gives her... 5+Con HP? And nothing else?

Yeah, that's the worst part right now...
Worst case, she didn't realize she was forbidding most of basic Monk features with armor (in which case Monk may be a tad too tactical for her), you should then probably allow a respec.
Best case she actually have a specific idea in mind.
- Either using armor just for the first levels, bearing playing like a regular Fighter, then removing armor.
- Or actually just wanting a bit of Monk features (Dodge as bonus action, Deflect Arrows, Long Death's THP) with just a bit of Ki tacked on top of a Fighter, which can work well too.
In any case, I agree she should know which class she wants to be the main one, and get it to 5 before character level 8 worst case.

As far as roles in a party, monks aren't the best tank, aren't the best striker/damage dealer, aren't the best controller, aren't the best healer/buffer.

The one role that monks are supposed to be the best at, skirmisher which by the way is more of a play style than "role", rogues are better at by a mile. Ranged attack with bonus action hide beats the pants off any cute movement bonuses monks get (which rogues get as well). And the rogues offensive ability (sneak attack) does not conflict with their defensive ability (bonus action hide) unlike the Monk who is forced to choose.

And even the tertiary roles such as scout and skill monkey, monks aren't the best. So to the OP, I agree the monk's role is as a 5th member when all the roles are already taken because they aren't the best at anything. On a positive note, they are versatile enough to fill many of the roles somewhat adequately, although bard probably has them beat in this regard as well.

Bolded part: that is simply untrue in many situations.
When you talk about skirmishing as "hit and run", if and when ranged attack from more than 150 feet afar in a place with surrounding covers is a thing... Then yeah Rogues will be better, because then can Hide & Attack in same turn, rinse and repeat until time to bail comes.

How often does that hold true though? If you're looking to harass a bandit camp in a forest, yeah no problem.
If it's about trying to silence one single guard holding the entrance to a fort or picking stray targets that expose themselves upon a wall, it can work.
In any decently organized place, Rogue's hide and seek death game can easily be made rather difficult if not completely folded.

And if they try to get inside to play with their dagger, they'd have first to get past the walls / doors / locks. On the latter part, the right expertise is usually enough. On everything else? Reliable Talent will come in handy, but that's a level 11. And even then, as far as climbing goes, as far as creating cover/distraction goes, you'ill still need equipment, time, plan, and a bit of luck.
Only Assassins (impersonate a guard), Thief (climbing speed) will fare well. Arcane Trickster may find some ways, covering climing with a Fog Cloud, or using a Misty Step later, or creating a distraction with an illusion... Still requires planning and some luck.

Monks? Around the time the aforementioned get real tools for the job, climbing up 30 feet of wall is no problem. Shadow and 4E are particularly good in this.

You don't have ONE but SEVERAL guards to disable? A risky but potent bet could be full nova of Stunning Strike on both.


As for scout/spy (which is not at all a tertiary role in my view, at least if you want party to survive intelligent hostile factions, but taht's another topic), Monks can easily be built in the top 3.
They don't have Expertise unless they happen to be Human or Half-Elf, granted.
At least two of the archetypes (Shadow, 4E) do get extremely good abilities for sneaking around.
Their natural Wisdom makes them an ideal candidate for Observant.
Their "permanent Comprehend Languages" makes them a heck of a spy late game, *especially* when tacked on Observant.

There is nothing a Monk can do that a caster couldn't make, probably better, with the right spells/rituals.
There are few things a Monk can do that a Rogue, *dedicated to that*, could not best, choosing rightly the Expertise and feats. But it would require that "build investment".
The only thing I see would be "permanent Dashing" (which is not possible normally anyways).

Monks are naturally good at scouting/spying as they get into more levels.
Monks become more tanky than Barbarians and Paladins in the last third of progression.

In a party that has several casters anyways, that could buff the martials with any kind of buffs they could need, that would probably feel irrelevant. In most parties, casters have largely their hands full with buffing one particular guy while holding a control spell on enemies and taking care of emergency heals.

[BoringInfoGuy]

The value of the Monk is not seen in simply comparing raw damage vs raw damage between classes.

Monk abilities also complementary with other party members.

Consider Evasion.

Taking half or no damage on from an enemy’s breath weapon or fireball is great for the healer. Damage mitigated doesn’t need to be healed, after all. But the parties mage, looking to drop his own fireball does not have to discount the best target location if a Monk happens to also be in the Area of Effect. Rogues share this benefit as well, but the Monk gets to improve it with Diamond Soul, allowing a second chance at the save.

Next look at Tongue of The Sun and Moon

As just mentioned, if a monk is acting as a scout, then he will be able to understand any spoken languages he overheard. This means he had more opportunity to learn something useful so that the party can make the most informed plans.

But also useful is acting as translator for the party face. Your friendly Bard or Sorcerer can’t bribe the strange creature in front of you for information if they can’t communicate.

Naturally, there is Stunning Strike. That’s the big one. Any class making attack rolls gets a damage boost when making attack rolls with Advantage. Less missed attacks, increased chance for critical damage.

The auto failing Strength and Dexterity saves is useful for casters and those with relevant class abilities. Also note that enemies with Evasion can’t take advantage of the feature while stunned. It only takes effect “When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take half damage...”. Stunned creatures do not get to attempt the saving throw, they automatically fail. (YMMV)

Stunned creatures lose any spells the were concentrating on. An ally paralyzed with Hold Person will be free to take their next action.

Stunned creatures can’t take actions or reactions. That helps allies move around safely. A rogue who unluckily misses their first attack against a Stunned foe could draw a second weapon, use a bonus action to get an offhand attack for a second shot at Sneak Attack damage, and still back away with impunity.

Now, there was a comment earlier that Stunning Strike is weak at higher levels, since so many creatures have good Constitution Saves. And it is true, most High CR creatures have a high Constitution Save. It’s often the highest save by a fair margin. Ancient Red Dragons have a Con Save of 16, their next highest save (Cha) is only 13. Suspiciously high, almost.

At level 20, a Monk with a +4 in Wisdom only has an 18 Save DC on their monk abilities. That Ancient Red can only fail on a one. With a maxed Wisdom of 20, the Save DC is only 19. With the Dragon only failing on a one or a two, why bother trying?

Because at level 20, the Monk has 20 Ki points. With Flurry of Blows and making Stunning Strike attempts each attack, the Monk is forcing up to 4 Saves each round, using up to 5 Ki points a round. Sure, it’s only a 1 in 10 chance of the Dragon failing the save each Stunning Strike. But after 3 rounds, odds are decent that one of those 12 attempts forced the Dragon to use a Legendary Save or be Stunned.

So what is the value of that? Burn through most of your Ki to MAYBE force a Legendary save?

A few things to keep in mind. A used Legendary Save is one step closer to victory. And better a Monk’s Ki points to get there than an ally’s spell slot.

And if those Legendary saves are already used up? A stunned creature is incapacitated. On top of the usual penalties, an incapacitated creature is unable to use Legendary Actions. And I am not aware of any creature that has immunity to being Stunned.

Stunning Strike is powerful. In one ability, it shuts down an enemy and effectively gives a boost to the entire party.

And if that Ancient Red Dragon makes all its saves? You still got your D10 + Ability modifier damage on up to four attacks. Two of those attacks having whatever enchantment bonus from any weapon that qualifies as a monk weapon. Stunning Strike is an add on ability. Trying to use it does not penalize your damage output.

All those high Con Scores on CR 20 creatures and above? I think they were boosted simply to keep Stunning Strike from trivializing what are supposed to be the most epic and iconic battles in the game.

[Misterwhisper]

The value of the Monk is not seen in simply comparing raw damage vs raw damage between classes.

Monk abilities also complementary with other party members.

Consider Evasion.

Taking half or no damage on from an enemy’s breath weapon or fireball is great for the healer. Damage mitigated doesn’t need to be healed, after all. But the parties mage, looking to drop his own fireball does not have to discount the best target location if a Monk happens to also be in the Area of Effect. Rogues share this benefit as well, but the Monk gets to improve it with Diamond Soul, allowing a second chance at the save.

Next look at Tongue of The Sun and Moon

As just mentioned, if a monk is acting as a scout, then he will be able to understand any spoken languages he overheard. This means he had more opportunity to learn something useful so that the party can make the most informed plans.

But also useful is acting as translator for the party face. Your friendly Bard or Sorcerer can’t bribe the strange creature in front of you for information if they can’t communicate.

Naturally, there is Stunning Strike. That’s the big one. Any class making attack rolls gets a damage boost when making attack rolls with Advantage. Less missed attacks, increased chance for critical damage.

The auto failing Strength and Dexterity saves is useful for casters and those with relevant class abilities. Also note that enemies with Evasion can’t take advantage of the feature while stunned. It only takes effect “When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take half damage...”. Stunned creatures do not get to attempt the saving throw, they automatically fail. (YMMV)

Stunned creatures lose any spells the were concentrating on. An ally paralyzed with Hold Person will be free to take their next action.

Stunned creatures can’t take actions or reactions. That helps allies move around safely. A rogue who unluckily misses their first attack against a Stunned foe could draw a second weapon, use a bonus action to get an offhand attack for a second shot at Sneak Attack damage, and still back away with impunity.

Now, there was a comment earlier that Stunning Strike is weak at higher levels, since so many creatures have good Constitution Saves. And it is true, most High CR creatures have a high Constitution Save. It’s often the highest save by a fair margin. Ancient Red Dragons have a Con Save of 16, their next highest save (Cha) is only 13. Suspiciously high, almost.

At level 20, a Monk with a +4 in Wisdom only has an 18 Save DC on their monk abilities. That Ancient Red can only fail on a one. With a maxed Wisdom of 20, the Save DC is only 19. With the Dragon only failing on a one or a two, why bother trying?

Because at level 20, the Monk has 20 Ki points. With Flurry of Blows and making Stunning Strike attempts each attack, the Monk is forcing up to 4 Saves each round, using up to 5 Ki points a round. Sure, it’s only a 1 in 10 chance of the Dragon failing the save each Stunning Strike. But after 3 rounds, odds are decent that one of those 12 attempts forced the Dragon to use a Legendary Save or be Stunned.

So what is the value of that? Burn through most of your Ki to MAYBE force a Legendary save?

A few things to keep in mind. A used Legendary Save is one step closer to victory. And better a Monk’s Ki points to get there than an ally’s spell slot.

And if those Legendary saves are already used up? A stunned creature is incapacitated. On top of the usual penalties, an incapacitated creature is unable to use Legendary Actions. And I am not aware of any creature that has immunity to being Stunned.

Stunning Strike is powerful. In one ability, it shuts down an enemy and effectively gives a boost to the entire party.

And if that Ancient Red Dragon makes all its saves? You still got your D10 + Ability modifier damage on up to four attacks. Two of those attacks having whatever enchantment bonus from any weapon that qualifies as a monk weapon. Stunning Strike is an add on ability. Trying to use it does not penalize your damage output.

All those high Con Scores on CR 20 creatures and above? I think they were boosted simply to keep Stunning Strike from trivializing what are supposed to be the most epic and iconic battles in the game.

The issue here is, if the fight was supposed to be epic and all, the dm will magically make that save every time so you don’t completely trivialize a major fight with the best ability in the game.

Monks are meh at best at everything but they get stunning strike to make up for it, but because it is so good most dms just lie and make sure you only land it when the party needs a bail out or things are taking to long.

[Lucas Yew]

Flavor wise, they exist to port low-to-mid grade Wuxia heroes into the predominantly European fantasy worlds of D&D, and that's fine by itself.

A nitpick, though. In 5E they buffed monks by giving DEX to damage and a thematically appropriate weapon (shortsword). Yet they forgot to buff (in my opinion) the biggest ribbon they exist for, the youth extension clause (a.k.a. Timeless Body). If implemented properly for a high-wuxia staple power, it should have been the current one PLUS the Druid's lifespan expansion in a single package...

[Kane0]

If we had more guns then deflect arrows would be a lot more impressive.

[Fable Wright]

As a DM who runs for a Monk:

1. I come from a Wargamer background. Therefore, archers and cover are important for my games. The monk loves this, because he Step of the Winds into melee with the archer and then wrecks face.
2. I just had a rather large fight recently, with a Young Dragon (IE no legendary resistances) supported by 9 snipers and two hounds on a bridge over a canyon. After the party's Wind Wall dropped to cut 7 archers out of the conflict...
a. The monk proceeded into combat with one of the archers, seriously messing up the ranged attacks, and cutting the damage that the party was taking in half.
b. When the divided archers drew melee weapons made their way onto the bridge to get past the Wind Wall, the monk would dash next to them and yeet them off the bridge with Open Hand, for massive fall damage.
c. When the dragon flew around, the Monk forced it out of position because of the risk of Stunning Strike when it landed in OA range of non-isolated party members
d. The nearby towers that were added to terrain added a huge boost to mobility, since he could Slow Fall down the side while all other enemies had to take the stairs up and down or risk falling damage.

The main benefits of the monk are incredibly consistent damage (there's basically no risk that you won't be engaged if you want to be engaged), the ability to support anyone who looks like they might be going down and generally help where it's needed most, and general strong positioning tricks such as leaping into the air to Stunning Strike/Open Hand Prone fliers out of the sky.

And when I say consistent damage, I mean it. He hit the most attacks of anyone at my games. Normally, when a melee character takes on a dispersed enemy, they need to spend a turn or two outside the action while they wait to re-engage. Not the monk. When enemies have ranged attackers of their own and use countersniping tactics, or the party puts up a Wind Wall because they're outgunned, the Sharpshooter occasionally just can't draw a bead. Not the monk. Other characters can be Fear'd out of position. Not the monk. (Stillness of Mind is seriously underrated.)

Oh, and for a freebie, they can just eliminate arrow damage (@#$%!!!) with a reaction and have Evasion. And then Diamond Soul. And at high levels you can just Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique enemies. On a success, that's 55 points of damage. Guaranteed.

What's the value of a monk at high levels? The most consistent damage in the game. You are the mailman. Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds. The higher 'raw' damage numbers of other classes are counteracted by not being able to use those numbers 20-40% of the time. The monk doesn't have that downtime and has some serious utility to boot—he's probably the biggest offensive threat the party has right now, after they just reached level 7.

[AdAstra]

*snipped for length*

Oh, and for a freebie, they can just eliminate arrow damage (@#$%!!!) with a reaction and have Evasion. And then Diamond Soul. And at high levels you can just Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique enemies. On a success, that's 55 points of damage. Guaranteed.

What's the value of a monk at high levels? The most consistent damage in the game. You are the mailman. Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds. The higher 'raw' damage numbers of other classes are counteracted by not being able to use those numbers 20-40% of the time. The monk doesn't have that downtime and has some serious utility to boot—he's probably the biggest offensive threat the party has right now, after they just reached level 7.

I will point out that you particular style is very advantageous towards a Monk. Archers tend to rely on distance or terrain to not be disrupted, which a Monk can circumvent pretty easily. Deflect Missiles is certainly good, but it helps a lot less when many attacks are focused on you, since you only have one reaction. It's far from immunity to arrows.

In your situation, the best course for 7 archers would be to be spread out at least 15 feet from each other (10 is acceptable, 20+ is preferred) if possible to minimize AOE spells and disruption from melee engagement, preferably in at least two groups. Focus fire on the Monk, since they're the most obvious target and fairly frail. If they use Deflect Missiles, move any adjacent archers away if they can get a turn before the Monk goes again. If not, let the engaged archer(s) do what they can in melee while the others move away in all directions (again if possible) and continue to pour on the arrows. The best way to put a pin in a Monk's efforts is to kill them dead, kinda like Rogues, though isolating a Monk is nowhere near as devastating.

[TheUser]

I claim to be a combat as War DM and then played a group of archers with hella strong positioning very poorly...

They have the high ground and a single target breaking past the wind wall....why not just load up the one juicy target with arrows/bolts and have the dragon come chew him up. They all have cover and a windwall works both ways so they don't have to worry about the rest of the party. They can hold their action to ready an attack as soon as the monk breaks his own cover to come melee one of their friends.

Half of them drew swords? Really? Why not just the one engaged with the monk? Why are they chasing him with swords when he slow falls down somewhere instead of redrawing their ranged weapons and resume shooting?

That monk should've broken away from the group, away from the safety of the windwall and been absolutely ravaged as they are the only good target for ranged attacks.

Monk with deathwish performs well when DM is merciful.

[opaopajr]

Flavor wise, they exist to port low-to-mid grade Wuxia heroes into the predominantly European fantasy worlds of D&D, and that's fine by itself.

That's the aesthetic, yes. And that aesthetic derives from highly de-militarized societies, where authority's monopoly on violence has kept military-grade weaponry (martial gear) out of the general populace. This eased trade while lowering the grade of civilian conflict, creating time and a safe space for leisurely legends to arise in literature.

You have to have such a peaceful, well-populated, and de-militarized region (through monopoly of force) for "wuxia monks" to make sense.

The most recent WotC analogy for Adventure League is likely Melvaunt's city-state gov't having a monopoly on magic casting, requiring licensing to even remain, and strict penalties for breach.

Walking around armed for war during times of peace is unusual in most of the densely settled and urbane world, moreso if there's a governing power that wants to hold that peace. Only borderlands and frontiers really show otherwise. That's where monks shine, in lands where everyone else is disarmed, because monks are never really disarmed.

[Tzun]

Bolded part: that is simply untrue in many situations.
When you talk about skirmishing as "hit and run", if and when ranged attack from more than 150 feet afar in a place with surrounding covers is a thing... Then yeah Rogues will be better, because then can Hide & Attack in same turn, rinse and repeat until time to bail comes.

How often does that hold true though? If you're looking to harass a bandit camp in a forest, yeah no problem.
If it's about trying to silence one single guard holding the entrance to a fort or picking stray targets that expose themselves upon a wall, it can work.
In any decently organized place, Rogue's hide and seek death game can easily be made rather difficult if not completely folded.

I have to disagree about skirmishing. Range almost always trumps movement IMO unless you're playing in really cramped quarters and even then you'll usually have blockers up front. It doesn't have to be 150 ft out. Take an example where you're out only 30 ft which is a reasonable distance where many encounters would occur. The rogue can fire and still has their full movement left and has their bonus action to either hide or dash if need be. Granted hiding can be dependent on how the DM plays the hiding mechanic but either way the rogue has their full movement plus can bonus action dash to stay out of trouble.

The Monk on the other hand will need to move at least 30 ft or more depending on the route they need to take to reach the target to deliver their attack. Then depending on whether they have mobile feat or some other way of disengaging without OA like open hand technique they will need to burn a ki to dash or Disengage to get out of harm's way in which case they can't flurry and so will only be making 1 or 2 attacks. The fact that the rogue just attacked from range gave it an effective boost of 60 ft to it's movement compared to the monk in this situation (30 ft up to the target + 30 ft back). I think it's far more difficult for the Monk to stay out of trouble than the rogue.

[Fable Wright]

They have the high ground and a single target breaking past the wind wall....why not just load up the one juicy target with arrows/bolts and have the dragon come chew him up.

Because literally no one in the party is moving past the wind wall for fear of being skewered by arrows.

There appears to be some confusion about what happened. I'm running Red Hand of Doom, and the archers are defending a bridge. Four towers each with one archer, one at each corner of the bridge, and a camp on the side opposite the PCs of five more. Nine archers in total, using Volo's stat blocks, so not awful in melee, and extremely hard to take down. Their singular goal is to keep the bridge intact long enough for a vanguard force to show up.

One of the PCs shows up with an enormous hammer and begins smashing the weak point of the stone bridge just inside the effect of the Wind Wall. They can't shoot him. If they wait for the wall to expire, the bridge will collapse, and they make an absolutely enormous strategic concession, needing to reroute the army and losing 7 days on the march. It took 12 rounds for the party to break through the 560 HP of the bridge with hammers. The archers couldn't wait, they had to cross the wall with swords.

Half of them drew swords? Really? Why not just the one engaged with the monk? Why are they chasing him with swords when he slow falls down somewhere instead of redrawing their ranged weapons and resume shooting?

Because they weren't chasing the monk.

The one engaged with the monk was one of two enemies on the side of the wind wall that the PCs were on. He affixed bayonets, as it were, and that reduction in effectiveness more or less cut the damage that the party was taking in half. The archers on the far side of the wind wall with the swords were all coming at the barbarian with the hammer that was destroying the bridge, and the Monk, after finishing picking off the archers in the tower, was able to slow fall off the side of the tower, Step of the Wind over to back up the Barbarian, and prevent the archers moving to melee from surrounding the Barb without a single round of downtime.

[Sorinth]

I will point out that you particular style is very advantageous towards a Monk. Archers tend to rely on distance or terrain to not be disrupted, which a Monk can circumvent pretty easily. Deflect Missiles is certainly good, but it helps a lot less when many attacks are focused on you, since you only have one reaction. It's far from immunity to arrows.

In your situation, the best course for 7 archers would be to be spread out at least 15 feet from each other (10 is acceptable, 20+ is preferred) if possible to minimize AOE spells and disruption from melee engagement, preferably in at least two groups. Focus fire on the Monk, since they're the most obvious target and fairly frail. If they use Deflect Missiles, move any adjacent archers away if they can get a turn before the Monk goes again. If not, let the engaged archer(s) do what they can in melee while the others move away in all directions (again if possible) and continue to pour on the arrows. The best way to put a pin in a Monk's efforts is to kill them dead, kinda like Rogues, though isolating a Monk is nowhere near as devastating.

If the archers didn't use terrain/distance the monk would do just as much damage so I wouldn't call it advantageous towards a monk. It's simply that the movement advantages granted to the monk rendered the enemy tactics irrelevant. It's similar to a Wizard who uses Fly, it renders a lot of enemy tactics useless/irrelevant.

I would also point out in your best course example, you have almost every enemy focused on the Monk leaving every other PC free reign to do whatever they want. If the Monk can get every enemy focused on attacking him, then he'll BA Dodge and the rest of the party will make short work out of the encounter, because an enemy that just lets casters do whatever they want is going to die quickly.

[TheUser]

There appears to be some confusion about what happened.

Because they weren't chasing the monk.

The one engaged with the monk was one of two enemies on the side of the wind wall that the PCs were on. He affixed bayonets, as it were, and that reduction in effectiveness more or less cut the damage that the party was taking in half.

Super confused.
Especially by the last sentence.
I am sure the monk did awesome.
Sounds like Wind Wall was the big MVP though....

[Misterwhisper]

Super confused.
Especially by the last sentence.
I am sure the monk did awesome.
Sounds like Wind Wall was the big MVP though....

That is what I was thinking, as soon as the wind wall went up, who cares what the monk did?

The enemies would have had to cross a bridge to get to the target, that would be in the open, and wind wall has no effect on magic which there seems to be an at least 5th level caster there.

All the monk did was find something to do, their efforts did not really mean anything because the rest of the group were not in danger anyway.
The monk made themself, and only themself, a target for multiple archers, while putting a wall between themself and any healing or non-magical backup.

That is not good strategy, that is being stupid and trying to find something to do.
They should have just been shot, multiple times.

It would have been much more effective if the monk had just helped destroy the bridge faster than 12 rounds.

[Man on Fire]

You know, the more I'm reading this, the more it looks like people are biased against monk and bend over backward to justify it. Too much moving the goslposts for my taste

[HiveStriker]

The issue here is, if the fight was supposed to be epic and all, the dm will magically make that save every time so you don’t completely trivialize a major fight with the best ability in the game.

Monks are meh at best at everything but they get stunning strike to make up for it, but because it is so good most dms just lie and make sure you only land it when the party needs a bail out or things are taking to long.

That's some of the worst counter-argument I've ever read. XD

BoringInfoGuy just stated that even maximized, a Monk had only 5% or 10% chance at best to have a Stunning Strike attempt work. It would require the Dragon to roll 1 or 2.

If THAT isn't epic, I wonder what would be in your eyes...

You know, the more I'm reading this, the more it looks like people are biased against monk and bend over backward to justify it. Too much moving the goslposts for my taste

Yeah, it's really sad to see how some people try and bend themselves just because they don't want to admit something is better than they think... XD

[Fable Wright]

Super confused.
Especially by the last sentence.
I am sure the monk did awesome.
Sounds like Wind Wall was the big MVP though....

That is what I was thinking, as soon as the wind wall went up, who cares what the monk did?

Okay. So. There is now a wind wall. Cool. The party is now, effectively, only fighting 2 Yeth Hounds, 2 Archers, and a CR 8 Dragon at level 6 (on their side of the wall), with some NPCs helping to tie up the dragon's non breath weapon attacks.

And are about to fight a second wave of 7 CR 3 mooks in about 3-4 rounds.

But sure. Nothing the monk did mattered, there was a 6th level Druid already using his Concentration on the scene. Issue resolved, party is not in danger, Monk was basically wasting his actions.

If you think of it as two staggered encounters, Monk spent 1 round tying up one of the two archers as the Yeth Hounds move into position for a Baying, to force the PCs to either leap off the bridge or run across the Wind Wall where they can be pincushioned. Because of the Monk being in range, and threatening Stunning Strike on the OA, Archer 1 in wave 1 would be making attacks at disadvantage when he would normally be able to get at least a round or two of free shots off against the party. This encouraged the Archer to switch to much lower damage melee, dramatically cutting down the damage that the party took before the imminent wave 2.

The monk then, immediately after taking down the archer, was able to spend movement alone to move next to the Barbarian. This prevented the vanguard of Wave 2 (due to arrive imminently) from moving around the Barbarian on the 10ft wide bridge. This cut down the maximum number of melee attacks that could be made against the Barb from 5 to 2. Note that another melee class simply does not have the moment to get to position in time, needing to traverse 80ft and take fall damage to get in position. Following this, the Monk did an Open Hand Flurry of Blows next round, and was able to knock two of the archers off the bridge, and retreat behind the wind wall before taking enemy fire.

After the dragon finished dealing with the NPCs and healed up with potions, he joined the battle for a surprise wave 3 (single Young Dragon). The Monk was instrumental in positioning to put soft pressure on the dragon to keep it from attacking squishy party members.

To reiterate, the monk never left the cover of the Wind Wall to die a horribly pincushion death. No action was wasted and each productively contributed. The sharpshooter could not say that because of the wind wall. The other melee could not say that, they occasionally had to spend rounds Dashing. The Druid could not say that, given the pathetic range of their cantrips. Only the Monk was always up, doing productive things, and dealing damage each turn.

[Ganryu]

To be honest, I'm the OP and I'm confused why this is still going.

Value of monk seems to be mobile hard to hit character, they aren't the best at damage, but seems to be elusive as hell. Annoying an enemy to death is a valid tactic.

Ki points suck if you waste them all, but make you a jack of all trades til you run out.

It has purposes and can see those. I do like someone pointing out how all the various subclasses have get out of dodge actions.

Open Hand knocks them back.

Way of the Long Death just takes them (and honestly alright with an OA, because it uses their reaction)

Four Elements is ranged. Sun Soul is a better Four Elements.

Kensei just pumps AC and prays for a miracle while not missing themselves.

Drunk Monk just disengages constantly.

Shadow teleports.

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From a design standpoint, will say I still hate how the monk has two primary stats. A paladin's fine with low charisma til later. Rangers can dump wisdom. Spellcasters can just use casting stat and range. Barbarian doesn't NEED his unarmored defense, so dex doesn't have to be super high.

Monk?

Monk NEEDS Wisdom and Dex. But I suppose with how well they can disengage and are pain in the ass to hit at range that they don't NEED to pump constitution.

However, that said, while it locks you in and not a ton of feats you can take, they seem to keep up fine with the other classes.

[Lyracian]

From a design standpoint, will say I still hate how the monk has two primary stats. A paladin's fine with low charisma til later. Rangers can dump wisdom. Spellcasters can just use casting stat and range. Barbarian doesn't NEED his unarmored defense, so dex doesn't have to be super high.

Monk?

Monk NEEDS Wisdom and Dex. But I suppose with how well they can disengage and are pain in the ass to hit at range that they don't NEED to pump constitution.

Well in older editions you had to roll a 17 Chr in order to even play a Paladin! I think 5th Ed did a good job that most classes are playable with only a single good stat. Monk is the exception and I do not think I would ever play one in point buy. They have some fun abilities and I have enjoyed reading this discussion.

[HiveStriker]

To be honest, I'm the OP and I'm confused why this is still going.

Value of monk seems to be mobile hard to hit character, they aren't the best at damage, but seems to be elusive as hell. Annoying an enemy to death is a valid tactic.

Ki points suck if you waste them all, but make you a jack of all trades til you run out.

It has purposes and can see those. I do like someone pointing out how all the various subclasses have get out of dodge actions.

Open Hand knocks them back.

Way of the Long Death just takes them (and honestly alright with an OA, because it uses their reaction)

Four Elements is ranged. Sun Soul is a better Four Elements.

Kensei just pumps AC and prays for a miracle while not missing themselves.

Drunk Monk just disengages constantly.

Shadow teleports.

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From a design standpoint, will say I still hate how the monk has two primary stats. A paladin's fine with low charisma til later. Rangers can dump wisdom. Spellcasters can just use casting stat and range. Barbarian doesn't NEED his unarmored defense, so dex doesn't have to be super high.

Monk?

Monk NEEDS Wisdom and Dex. But I suppose with how well they can disengage and are pain in the ass to hit at range that they don't NEED to pump constitution.

However, that said, while it locks you in and not a ton of feats you can take, they seem to keep up fine with the other classes.

I'll have to strongly disagree on the first bolded part. And nuance the second.

Second first: Kensei is not only about having higher accuracy. It also has higher damage. Besides that, its main values imo are...
1) You become truly great at ranged attacks. This is a crucial point that makes a Kensei much easier to play for people less experienced/knowledgeable, because you can simply play like a ranged guy until you feel confident enough to close in (also until you get enough ki to start using Stunning Strike reliably).
2) Your attacks are magical, INCLUDING YOUR WEAPON ONES. If you play campaigns where magic weapons are easy to find, and always suit your needs, it will be underwhelming.
In all the other campaigns, it means you're still 100% efficient whatever weapon you use, whatever effective range you play at: no need to be in melee for unarmed strikes, no need for a magic weapon or a Magic Weapon.

First second if I may say so.
4E is better overall than Sun Soul. Sun Soul is indeed "better at range" for a while, but 4E is not at all just "ranged".

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Sun Soul gets radiant damage ranged attack, which is great, but only 30 feet. Any Monk can throw javelins or switch to crossbow. So SS is very nice in that it's the only one allowing early "nova" at 30 feet range, with magical, rarely resisted damage (which helps keeping it a relevant ability at high level). Sadly though, it's not an "oh that's awesome" ability that would make picking that archetype a no brainer.

4E doesn't get anything remotely similar. However, he gets powerful abilities, more importantly he can choose which one he wants and change as needed.
Where Sun Soul just offers "plain damage", 4E gets abilities that offer minimum damage and control effect.

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The Burning Hands as a bonus action is also a very nice ability, easier to use as a Monk than "regular BH" 4E gets as a result (you can still attack).

And since you can, sorry you *need* to use Attack action before, you can also try and Stun enemies before so at least two of them auto-fail save against the fire damage (which, incidentally, still means you dropped at least 4 ki on that single round).

And it scales higher since it's half monk level (so you can eventually cast it as a level 9 spell for a nice 11d6).
So, much better?

Weeeeelll. Not really.
It's your only AOE ability and it's fire based, so when facing fire-resistant enemies it's very weak. 4E can change or stack different abilities.
It scales nice, but damage still pales: at level 11, you can use it as a bonus action, and cast to max level at the time, meaning 4th level: so 6d6 in a 15 feet cone.
At the time, Monk can use same amount of ki, as an action though, to launch a regular Fireball: 8d6, 150 feet (no need to put yourself in danger), 20 feet *radius*.

"Hey wait, you forget Sun Soul gets it own 150 feet, action made, 20 feet radius AOE".
True. And it's radiant damage! But it also targets CON, deals only 2d6 radiant. By spending 3 Ki, you can push it to 8d6, which makes it competitive... Except that it still targets CON. And it doesn't go around cover.
If you find this accessory, then that ability is better. Personally I don't.

More importantly 4E gets Fly. This means where for any other Monks, many enemies would be harmable through ranged ways only, 4E Monks can put them right at the end of their fingertips.
If all you do is exploring underground caverns, even then, it's still a very impressive speed boost.
If all you do is exploring underground AND small caverns, then only does it become an underwhelming ability.

Also, from level 6 onwards, 4E got potentially Hold Person, aka "the spell that provides Stunning Strike effect and much more". This is especially good for a melee character, since you auto-crit. :)
"But it's situational, it targets only humanoids". Fair enough, but I have yet to see campaigns where you don't get humanoids regularly, especially at low level or in cities and more generally organized factions.
"But many casters have it". Yeah, but how many would really want to try it when they already got many other great spells to concentrate upon?

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4E can become ki-hungry much quicker than some others, that's no doubt. It does not make it less powerful in the right hands. It's simply that, because most of its abilities are "simply spells" or "single target soft control", it may seem a bit more difficult for such a Monk to find its place/role in a party with at least two "offensive" casters.
Also the fact you actually have to choose the abilities, and you can change every level, makes it more difficult to "project into", whereas all other archetypes have clear orientation. :)

To reiterate, the monk never left the cover of the Wind Wall to die a horribly pincushion death. No action was wasted and each productively contributed. The sharpshooter could not say that because of the wind wall. The other melee could not say that, they occasionally had to spend rounds Dashing. The Druid could not say that, given the pathetic range of their cantrips. Only the Monk was always up, doing productive things, and dealing damage each turn.

Thank you for this reminder that mobility is a very, very big part of effective power (even for a sniper, by the way, which you "reverse-proved" with that Wind Wall). Which many people tend to forget. ^^