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2019-12-08, 02:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
learned spells must be of a level you have spell slots for .... when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the <insert class> spells you know and replace it with another spell from the <insert class>spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.-PHB for all sorts of spell caster classes
Does Arcane trickster use spells like a sorcerer, interchangeably without preparing?
If the Arcane trickster multiclasses to wizard, can they copy and learn new wizard spells for their book and use them for Arcane trickster casting? And if so, to what level? Let's just say level 1 of wizard.
I've found multiple sources online that say bards Jack of all trades ability helps with Counterpell, even further stacking with Rogue's Reliable talent for guaranteed counters up to 8 even using 3rd slot. But I've been staring at Counterspells description for awhile and I'm not entirely sure how this works. I get most of the base principle but then doesn't this help with all spells? Like spells are resisted against the spell ability level + spell level, right? So are all spells boosted by Jack of all trades and Reliable Talent? If not, why not? How is Counterspell different than other spells? And what other spells are helped in this?
Does knowledge arcana not help with pulling off a counter spell? Yes I know it helps identify the spell being cast, but I mean the actual countering it.Last edited by molean; 2019-12-08 at 02:34 AM.
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2019-12-08, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
When you're multiclassed you determine the spells you can prepare from only that class' perspective, so you can only choose spells for your AT side as a level 9 AT and if you dip Wizard you can only learn spells liek a 1st level Wizard.
An Arcane Trickster is a spell known caster like a Sorcerer, you pick your spells and outside of level ups this doesn't change.
For Counterspelling Arcana doesn't enter into it, if it's a 3rd level or lower spell it auto succeeds, if you're trying to counter a higher level spell you need to make a check. This is a spellcasting check so if you get Counterspell from Bard, then your check is a d20+Cha and half your proficiency from Jack of all Trades. If you were a Wizard then it would be d20+Int (adding full prof if a higher level Abjurer).For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
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2019-12-08, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
You get spells known as if you were a single class character.
It was changed in an Errata.
Yes, like sorcerer.
Level 1 of wizard will give you spell prepared like a level 1 wizard and you will be able to copy all level 1 spell of a wizard with enough time and access to the spells.
Jack of all trades work with counterspell because it is an ability check and bard get half proficiency to all ability checks that he have no proficiency for.
The game have 3 d20 rolls, ability, attack and save. It is the same reason a bard get better initiative.
About the rogue reliable talent it depends on if half proficiency bonus work as a trigger for it.
Counterspell and dispell magic are ability check of spellcasting ability (the one from the class you got the spell from) vs 10+spell levels of the one you want to counter/dispell.
It is not that spell resist it is that countering/dispelling is harder if your counter/dispell is from a lower slut.
Arcane does not help.
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2019-12-08, 03:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
So that learned spell also applies with changing one spell to another with leveling up also ignore the other classes in multiclass?
With multiclassing 1wizard and multiple arcane trickster, can I use any of those learned from copying level 1 wizard spells as how a arcane trickster casts(sorcerer style) and using all level 1 slots?
Like spells are resisted against the spell ability level + spell level, right? So are all spells boosted by Jack of all trades and Reliable Talent? If not, why not? How is Counterspell different than other spells? And what other spells are helped in this?
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2019-12-08, 03:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
You prepared the spell differently and cast them as if you were the class the prepared them.
You can yous any slut to cast them(so if you have multiple AT and one wizard you can upcast burning hands to a level 5 slut even if you only have it as a wizard.
Your slots are different from your known/prepared spells.
The slot are universal and work like the table.
About what you quoted I already answered, the spell are not resisting, there is no such thing.
The JoAT and reliable talent work with counterspell and dispell magic because those spells use an ability check ant those two features boost ability checks.
Most other spells use an attack roll or no roll. If it is not called an ability check it is no boosted.
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2019-12-08, 04:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2017
Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
I'm having a little trouble understanding what you're asking, but I'll try my best to answer each point I can.
According to the multiclassing rules, spell slots and spells known/prepared are handled separately from one another.
For spell slots, you basically add up all your caster levels, and you have as many spell slots as a full caster of that level. Thus, a cleric 5 / wizard 5 has many spell slots as a wizard 10 would. Do note that paladin and ranger levels only count for half, and AT and EK levels only count for one third of a caster level. Thus, a bard 11 / AT 9 would be a 11 + (9/3) = 14th level caster.
Spells known/prepared are handled differently. You treat each caster class as if it were your only class in order to determine which spells you know or can prepare for that class, but you can do this for each caster class. If you are a 5th level wizard, you know and can prepare as many spells as a 5th level wizard, regardless of what other class levels you may have. A bard 11 / AT 9 only knows the spells that a bard 11 would know + the spells that an AT 9 would know.
When you combine these two, it means you can have spells slots that are a higher level than the spells you can know or prepare. A bard 11 / AT 9 is a 14th level caster and has 7th level spell slots, but they can only learn up to 6th level bard spells and 2nd level wizard spells. While you don't know any 7th level spells, you can cast one of your lower level spells at 7th level.
Does Arcane trickster use spells like a sorcerer, interchangeably without preparing?
If the Arcane trickster multiclasses to wizard, can they copy and learn new wizard spells for their book and use them for Arcane trickster casting? And if so, to what level? Let's just say level 1 of wizard.
I've found multiple sources online that say bards Jack of all trades ability helps with Counterpell, even further stacking with Rogue's Reliable talent for guaranteed counters up to 8 even using 3rd slot. But I've been staring at Counterspells description for awhile and I'm not entirely sure how this works. I get most of the base principle but then doesn't this help with all spells? Like spells are resisted against the spell ability level + spell level, right? So are all spells boosted by Jack of all trades and Reliable Talent? If not, why not? How is Counterspell different than other spells? And what other spells are helped in this?
Reliable Talent forces a minimum roll of 10 on any ability check that adds your proficiency bonus. Counterspell does not normally add your proficiency bonus, unless you're an Abjurer, so you don't normally benefit from Reliable Talent. Jack of All Trades adds half your proficiency bonus, and while it's only half, it still counts for triggering Reliable Talent (and yes, they're an amazing combo). Since Counterspell uses an ability check, with Jack of All Trades and Reliable Talent, you can't roll lower than a 10 and you add half your proficiency bonus. Assuming 17th level with an INT of 20, that means the lowest you can roll is 10 + 5 + 3 = 18, which will counter up to 8th level spells, guarantied, as the DC is 10 + the spell's level.
Does knowledge arcana not help with pulling off a counter spell? Yes I know it helps identify the spell being cast, but I mean the actual countering it.
Personally, I like playing scholarly type characters, but I appreciate the fact that I'm not forced to do so in order to optimize. It's kind of like how fighters don't need to take proficiency with Athletics in order to be good at fighting.
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2019-12-08, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha
I will give some specific spell examples. But please realize it's not just about this or that particular spell but understanding the base mechanics of magics and hopefully getting the answer to my previous question.
Silent Image: A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC.
Jack of all Trade says "any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus." So that means it doesn't benefit from Jack of all Trades because it already has proficiency bonus from any level or whatever proficiency bonus it means? So then does Rogues Reliable Talent apply for making your illusions harder to see through?
Fire Bolt: Make a ranged spell attack against the target
Ones spell attack "equals your spell casting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus" So Jack of all Trade says "any ability check you make" & spell attacks use an ability check? ? ?
Blindness/Deafness: Choose one creature that you can see within range to make a Constitution saving throw.
Fireball: creature in a 20-foot radius must make a Dexterity saving throw
make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level.
Why would Counterspell benefit from it? What's different about it?
What other spells would benefit from Jack and/or Reliable?Last edited by molean; 2019-12-08 at 10:08 AM.
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2019-12-08, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
DC is not a check, it is a value you need to pass with a check so it is not valid for Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent.
Spell attack is an attack roll, not an ability check so it doesn't benefit from Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent.
Pay attention that the one who try to determine that it is an illusion in your silent image example do get the benefits from Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent because it calls for Intelligence (Investigation) check.
It is a check of an ability(and not an attack or save) so it is an ability check.
An ability check is a roll of a d20 that is not an attack and not a save that use an ability modifier in order to check success or failure.
Almost always an ability check will be called an ability check.
Counterspell benefit from Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent because he calls for an ability check.
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends.
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2019-12-08, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sChaLast edited by molean; 2019-12-08 at 10:49 AM.
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2019-12-08, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
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2019-12-08, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
The fundamental thing you are missing (which has be mentioned) is that there are three types of d20 rolls.
1) SAVING throws. A target has to roll a d20 to avoid or reduce an effect. Usually spells and traps. The spells you quoted said “spell save DC” or “saving throw”. These are NOT ability checks (though they are calculated the same way).
DC=Difficulty Class (or something like that)
DC=8+proficiency+ability modifier
The target has to roll equal to or greater than the DC to successfully save.
2) ATTACK rolls. Weapons and some spells may call for an attack roll. (These are NOT ability checks - they are attack rolls). In order to hit, your d20+ability modifier+other modifiers (the most common would be a magic weapon or archery fighting style if using a ranged weapon) has to be equal to or greater than the targets armor class (AC).
3) The last category of d20 rolls are ability checks. These are most commonly skills but also include rolling for initiative (which is a dexterity ability check) and the roll needed for counterspell which is a spell casting ability check.
The basic formula you need to roll is the same as an attack roll.
D20+proficiency (Only if you are proficient) + ability modifier
So if you have to make an athletics check to scale a wall. The DM would tell you the DC, you would roll a d20 add modifiers and if the total was greater than the DC you would succeed.
What does bard jack of all trades do?
It allows you to add 1/2 your proficiency but ONLY to ability checks where you are not proficient. Since you can never get proficiency in initiative checks or counterspell rolls (except the abjure wizard), a bard gets to add 1/2 their proficiency to these rolls.
Finally, the latest version of the official sage advice compendium specifically clarifies that Reliable Talent and Jack of All Trades do NOT work together.
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2019-12-08, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
When spell caster multiclassing, do you get all the cantrips of each class? And all learned spells?
Last edited by molean; 2019-12-08 at 12:47 PM.
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2019-12-08, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Yes. You'll often have to remember which class you got which cantrip from, since each class has its own casting stat; if you know Sacred Flame as a cleric and Fire Bolt as a sorcerer, you'll force them to make a save based on your WIS mod for the cleric one while you attack based on CHA mod for the sorcerer one. All cantrips scale based on character level, though, and ones that don't rely on your stats really don't care which class they come from.
And all learned spells?
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2019-12-08, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Bard allows you to get proficiency in any "skill". Is medium armor proficiency a "skill" that could be chosen? How might I get it otherwise? (other than multiclassing of course)
Last edited by molean; 2019-12-08 at 01:32 PM.
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2019-12-08, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
No, medium armor is not a skill. The skills are pretty clearly listed in the skills section of the PHB.
You can get proficiency with medium armor by multiclassing into a class which allows it or by taking the Moderately armored feat ... but you need to already be proficient with light armor to take the moderately armored feat (which bards are). The classes that give medium armor proficiency are listed in the multiclassing table in chapter 6 OR if the armor proficiency is listed as a specific feature of the class sub-type. For example, hexblade warlocks get proficiency in medium armor and shields at level 1 as an archetype feature. If you take 1 level of hexblade warlock you have proficiency in medium armor and shields. However, warlocks in general, receive proficiency in light armor as a class ability.
Clerics are similar. They have proficiency in medium armor, shields and simple weapons as a class ability but some archetypes receive proficiency in heavy armor and/or martial weapons as an archetype feature.
P.S. Multiclassing proficiencies gained are listed in the table on page 164 of the PHB.Last edited by Keravath; 2019-12-08 at 01:49 PM.
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2019-12-08, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2019-12-08, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
FYI it has always been this way. That part of the text has gone unchanged.
For the purpose of the rules the skills are defined on page 174 of the phb (page 61 of the basic rules) as a specific aspect of a more general ability score. There is a list there.
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2019-12-08, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
With a Bard 4, Arcane Trickster 16 multiclass, should I max intel? dex? (otherwise they will be at 16) or use all ability increase points for feats? I got alot of feats I'd like to get. Like Sharpshooter, skulker,(if I miss because I took sharpshooters disadvantage to hit I can remain hidden) lucky, resilient con,(It's a party of me and a sorcerer so no one to hide behind) ritual spell caster, mobile, alert. sentinel, war caster are various feats I'd like to get. But I can't get them all obviously, especially not and max say intel. My GM thinks I should absolutely max intel, but I'm not sure two feats for +2 spell rolls is worth it for a low level caster filled with many utility spells (but color blast and blindness working will always be nice)
With warcaster it says " You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands." How does it work otherwise?Last edited by molean; 2019-12-08 at 02:08 PM.
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2019-12-08, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Several comments ..
1) You need to have a free hand to cast ANY spell unless you have the warcaster feat. A two handed weapon only needs two hands when you are actually attacking with it. A character using a bow or a two handed sword who wants to cast a spell doesn't need warcaster since they will have a free hand already. A character wielding a sword and shield might want warcaster to allow them to cast a spell with somatic components while both hands are full (exception for clerics/paladins casting a spell with both material and somatic components when their shield is their spell casting focus).
2) Your character is mostly a rogue. Your primary stat will be dexterity so you would max that. Typically, arcane tricksters use mostly utility spells and fewer attack spells since they don't get as high level spells as a primary caster and they also don't usually max intelligence since, as you mentioned, there are a lot of other feats that might be more useful to a rogue. On the other hand, the level 9 ability of the arcane trickster which forces opponents to roll their saving throws at disadvantage when the rogue is hidden from them when they cast a spell works very well with higher intelligence. However, if you can find a headband of intellect magic item in your travels this is typically more than enough for an arcane trickster.
3) The -5/+10 ability of sharpshooter is a bit of a trap for a rogue (meaning that most of the time you will not want to use it) since it reduces the chance of landing sneak attack which does several d6 extra damage (3d6 at level 5 rogue averages 10.5 damage which is more than the bonus from sharpshooter). Most rogue sharpshooter builds will take sharpshooter for the range and cover benefits and will likely multiclass into something granting the extra attack feature.
4) At level 5 bard you get access to 3rd level spells and bardic inspiration refreshes on a short rest. 4/16 might maximize ASIs but I think you would be better off with 5/15 since the increase in bard abilities at level 5 is worthwhile. Also if you are taking bard to level 5, then having a good charisma is essential, so you would be boosting charisma and not intelligence. An arcane trickster doesn't get 3rd level spells until 13th level ... so the 5 levels of bard are actually a major source of the magical ability of this character. High charisma also helps all the social skills like persuasion making the character better at social interactions (along with the expertise from both bard and rogue).
5) Campaigns rarely make it to level 20. Think about what will be fun to play to various milestones ... up to level 4, 5-10, 11-16, 17-20. What mix of character levels will be fun for you to play?
For example, at level 5 ... do you want to be bard 5, rogue 5, bard 3/rogue 2, rogue 3/bard 2 or some other mix? How about level 7? 5 bard/rogue 2, 5 rogue/2 bard, 7 rogue?
Each combination gives you different abilities and will feel quite different when you play them. Give it a little thought what you want the character to be like as you play through since it will take a very long time to get to level 20 if your campaign gets there.Last edited by Keravath; 2019-12-08 at 02:28 PM.
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2019-12-08, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
1) You need to have a free hand to cast ANY spell
3) The -5/+10 ability of sharpshooter is a bit of a trap for a rogue (meaning that most of the time you will not want to use it) since it reduces the chance of landing sneak attack which does several d6 extra damage
Your primary stat will be dexterity so you would max that.
4) At level 5 bard you get access to 3rd level spells and bardic inspiration refreshes on a short rest. 4/16 might maximize ASIs but I think you would be better off with 5/15 since the increase in bard abilities at level 5 is worthwhile. Also if you are taking bard to level 5, then having a good charisma is essential, so you would be boosting charisma
Regarding middle mix, not sure. Maybe 8 levels Arcane trickster for evasion and second feat and second level spell then 3 Bard? Or 3 and 3? But then that might be too skill heavy at first, need more survive-ability.
Please keep in mind we are limited to stuff in the PHB
My stats I have planned as follows (we are using the point spending system)
High elf.
16 intel (after race)
16 dex
13 con (resilient con feat rounding it out to 14)
12 cha
10 Wis
8 Str
Also we are doing a special house rule where HP will be equivalent to level 10, no matter actual level. Multiclassing makes it a bit more complicated but there isn't a big difference between Rogues and Bards regarding HP.
BTW if you upslot Enhanced ability for 2+ different targets, can you boost two different ability skills in that one spell? Could you choose the same target twice?Last edited by molean; 2019-12-08 at 04:08 PM.
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2019-12-08, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Correct, verbal only spells don't require a free hand. A spell with somatic components requires a free hand. A spell with material components requires a free hand OR a spellcasting focus (except for materials that cost money or are consumed). A spell with both somatic and material components can use the same hand for both, even if that hand isn't "free".
For example, you can't normally use a hand holding a shield to perform somatic components, as the hand isn't free. But clerics and paladins can use a shield with their holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, allowing them to cast spells with somatic components with that hand, but only if the spell also uses material components. Spells with somatic components but no material components still can't be cast with the hand holding the shield.
Again, not with Skulker that makes it not reveal your position if you miss so your next attack can also be a sneak attack.
Extra Attack or some other method of making additional attacks will help, but I'd save something like the Sharpshooter -5/+10 thing for after you land your Sneak Attack. Make your first attack without the penalty, and if it hits, then you can make your remaining attacks with the penalty to get that extra damage. But if your first attack misses, then don't take the penalty, as you want to make sure you get that Sneak Attack to hit.
Meh. 16 dex seems plenty.
Here's what you get for bumping DEX by 2: +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls, +1 to AC, +1 to DEX saves, and +1 Stealth and other DEX skills. Because of Expertise and Reliable Talent, ability checks aren't the main reason for bumping DEX, it's the combat benefits (attack and damage rolls, AC, DEX saves).
Meh. Bard doesn't have some amazing level 3 spells.
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2019-12-08, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
1) You're right. Spells with somatic or material components require a free hand. I wasn't clear.
2) You need 13 charisma in order to multiclass into bard (based on the multiclassing rules in the PHB, if you are using them).
3) Your call on what you think is enough :) .. play it how you like :)Last edited by Keravath; 2019-12-08 at 04:36 PM.
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2019-12-08, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
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2019-12-08, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Let's consider again the example of a cleric with a holy symbol on their shield. The hand holding the shield isn't "free", so it can't perform somatic components. However, the shield counts as a spellcasting focus, so it can be used to perform material components, even though the hand isn't free. If a spell has both somatic and material components, you can perform both of them with the hand holding the shield, because the shield is a spellcasting focus. But a spell with somatic but not material components can't be performed with the the shield hand.
To put it another way, a hand holding a spellcasting focus can't be used for somatic components, unless it is also performing material components.
Yeah, if you're dual-wielding you will be unable to use either somatic or material components. Now, some weapons are also spellcasting foci, such as a staff, which would allow you to perform spells with material components, much like the cleric with their shield.
Warcaster allows you to perform somatic (but not material) components with a weapon or shield. If dual-wielding and not using a spellcasting focus, you'll be able to perform spells with somatic components, but not spells with material components.
Your best bet, especially with a multiclassed character, is to get a component pouch and try to always have a hand free. Bards and AT rogues use different spellcasting foci, so a component pouch makes it easier to use spells from either class. If you intend to use Crossbow Expert, you only need one hand crossbow for it to work (though some people may disagree), so you can leave your other hand free.
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2019-12-08, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Is there a finesse/range spell casting focus for rogues?
Setting aside spell casting focus's, the only time you don't have a free hand is duel wielding or shield and weapon? If a bow that uses two hands or a two handed weapon you are considered having a free hand for no problem spell casting since you can hold said weapon in one hand for long enough for the spell?
Please tell me where it says this business about material component requirements making it easier to cast spells with a focus is in the PHB or where ever.
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2019-12-08, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Nope. Though you may be able to integrate the focus into the hilt of your weapon if your DM lets you get away with that. It's not... overly unbalancing, in of itself (since most of the time it's easier to just use an SCP), but it's cheesy ("I'm technically holding the focus, and RAW doesn't clearly define what "holding" means, so we default to the dictionary explanation etc. etc.") and can be potentially be exploited in a egregious manner by certain multiclass gish builds. Especially when magic items are involved.
Another way involves the improvised weapon rules. If your DM agrees that your focus is "similar" to a finessable weapon (e.g. a dagger), then it can be treated as such, potentially allowing you to SA with a focus sharpened into an improvised shiv. Though this approach might run into issues with improvised weapons not counting as actual weapons (RAW is unclear, Crawford says no but waffles a bit).
Anyhow, ATs don't get access to spellcasting foci anyway, so it's a moot point, barring multiclassing.
You might be holding onto a tool like a torch or lantern, or a magic item like a wand or potion. Or grappling or climbing. Those also take up hands.
But yeah, the two-handed property of certain weapons is only relevant when you're actually attacking with them. This was ambiguous, but later made clear in the errata.
Some DMs may require a "free interaction" on your turn to switch grips, putting a slight kibosh to this tactic. (I disagree with this interpretation, because most of the examples given that take up a "free interaction" involves more effort than this.)
The rules for using the hand holding a material component or a spellcasting focus to also perform the somatic components of a spell only come into play when the spell actually has a material component. It doesn't apply for spells with somatic components but without material ones, so you can't use a wand/staff hand to cast Shield, for example.
This position has been clarified repeatedly by Crawford tweets and the SAC, so it's also RAI.
Some DMs don't like this because of the perceived... "ludonarrative dissonance", though this can be handwaved by saying that S-only spells require more intricate hand movements like finger wagging or other complicated finger gestures.
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2019-12-08, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
No, unfortunately. In fact, it seems ATs can't use spellcasting foci for their spells anyway. A component pouch, or the actual materials, is your only option.
Since ATs use wizard spells, though, it might make sense for them to use an arcane focus. You should ask your DM about this.
Setting aside spell casting focus's, the only time you don't have a free hand is duel wielding or shield and weapon? If a bow that uses two hands or a two handed weapon you are considered having a free hand for no problem spell casting since you can hold said weapon in one hand for long enough for the spell?
Please tell me where it says this business about material component requirements making it easier to cast spells with a focus is in the PHB or where ever.Originally Posted by PHB, page 203
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2019-12-08, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
Tanarii does, IIRC.
Though reading it this way means you only need a free hand to access the focus, like a material component, so you don't actually need to hold the focus to use it this way.
But if you're already holding the focus, then you need a second hand, according to this reading.
(In any case, while this interpretation technically adheres more closely to the literal reading of RAW, it directly contradicts some examples provided by the devs, such as the one given in the SAC about a wizard using a hand holding an orb spellcasting focus to also perform the somatic components of a Lightning Bolt spell.)
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2019-12-09, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
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2019-12-09, 06:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2019
Re: Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.
How long does it take to switch weapons and so on? If I was tossing daggers, what actions would it take to draw each new dagger?
Similarly how long would it take to put away a dagger with duel wielding to cast a spell, and then draw said dagger again when needing to attack, how is that handled? Or say if I have a long bow I'm blasting enemies from afar with and then need to switch to a rapier because the enemy is close to me.
Something to keep in mind, if I got 5th level Bard, that would only give me two third level bard spells. I seriously ask this, do you know two third level Bard spells (one which would have to replace a level 1 or 2) that makes it worth losing a feat or 2 more dex? Plus specializing in Charisma like you suggested if not one of those spells that make spell caster level irrelevant.
As far as as intel verses charisma spell casting. Consider the type of spells I can use with each. Arcane trickster has some great low level illusions and enchantments (hello suggestion) that that can be used in lots of clever ways to compliment a rogue, but only of they aren't resisted. Intel also is a decent saving throw and compliments lots of skills. Charisma on the other hand had no real battle application other than spells and social wise that is already over represented between my mad skills with the multiclassing of rogue and bard plus a sorcerer who is picking social skills to be proficient in. And then there is Counter Spell and Dispel Magic boosted with their synergy with Bard which are complimented by Arcane knowledge to know whether a spell should be countered making me able to do a pretty good job of shutting down spell casters and giving great purpose to extra slots, and Counter Spell is not a Bard spell.
And as mentioned before, Bard has some good low level spells that are spell caster level independent making it so that I could easily make charisma my dump stat along with strength despite having levels of Bard.
But good point about multi-classing requiring a 13 in charisma. I could take bard as my first level, no rule saying you have to have a minimal charisma score to start out as a Bard, right? This would mean one less skill to be proficient in overall compared to a Rogue start though. (but instead I'd have proficiency in 3 useless instruments instead of 1, woohoo! What use is playing musical instruments in this game?)
Compared to multi-classing over to bard I could have 13 charisma and 9 wisdom, So one less saving throw etc in wisdom that I would never be able to afford to round up (or two if I did 12 wisdom and 8 charisma with starting out with Bard) So is it worth one more skill proficiency (of many eventually) for 1 less point in wisdom checks? Keep in mind that's one less skill benefiting from Reliable Expert assuming that it doesn't stack with Jack of all Trades.
Also, that first level of Bard with low charisma would be hell.Last edited by molean; 2019-12-09 at 06:31 AM.