Strongest Path of War Class?

[BlueWitch]

Of the Martial Maneuver classes in Path of War, which do you think is the strongest?

We Have:

Warlord
Warder
Mystic
Harbinger
Stalker
and Zealot

Personally, I think it's the Harbinger. You get to move as a Swift Action at Lv.3.
But the Stalker gets some cool buffs throughout too.

I get the feeling Warlord probably is.

[Rynjin]

They're all pretty much equal. My gut feeling says Mystic is a bit weaker than the rest; the inconsistency in their Granted Maneuvers system is cumbersome to deal with, at least.

Other than that though, each class has its own unique edges and downsides compared to the other classes.

[BlueWitch]

They're all pretty much equal. My gut feeling says Mystic is a bit weaker than the rest; the inconsistency in their Granted Maneuvers system is cumbersome to deal with, at least.

Other than that though, each class has its own unique edges and downsides compared to the other classes.

Yeah, I gotta admit, they're all pretty well rounded this time. If there is a powerscale it's not that noticeable.

[KatsOfLoathing]

It's kind of hard to make direct comparisons because their ability spreads and chosen disciplines all lend themselves to different playstyles, and all of the classes have multiple viable build paths besides. Mystics also make up for their weaker recovery method with elemental glyphs, which are some of the most powerful and versatile combat buffs in the game and also have some out-of-combat utility.

Kinda like Swordsage vs. Crusader and Warblade, though, one can make the case that some of the classes have more out-of-combat uses than others, even outside of maneuver choices. Harbingers and Wardens get a lot more skill points than the others (except for Stalker and Rajah) on account of their Int focus. But even then it's a pretty loose comparison, and all of the classes are predominantly tilted towards fighting anyway.

[upho]

Yeah, I gotta admit, they're all pretty well rounded this time. If there is a powerscale it's not that noticeable.

Yeah, this sure is a very tough, if not impossible, question to answer. PoW is generally very well balanced to itself and at least decently built PCs based on T3-ish classes by Paizo, and the PoW classes' power ceiling and strength is typically even more build and especially party dependent IME. And their varied archetypes and general MC-friendliness makes it even more difficult to accurately answer this with anything but "it depends".

That said, I guess one could give a more accurate answer by rating each class in a few specific categories, like say their effectiveness in basic combat roles and non-combat/utility usefulness. If so, I think my ratings would be something along the lines of:

Defender/Controller

1. Warder (except perhaps Bushi and Dervish Defender), protection Zealot
2. Harbinger, non-protection Zealot
3. Warlord (especially Privateer), Rajah, Medic
4. All other

Leader

1. Rajah, Mystic
2. Zealot, Medic
3. Warlord
4. All other

Striker

1. Hussar Warlord
2. Stalker, Hussar Warder, Steelfist Commando Warlord
3. Warlord (other), Gunsmoke Mystic, Crimson Countess Harbinger
4. Dervish Defender or Bushi Warder, Sanguinist Medic, Batal Rajah?
5. All other

Non-combat

1. ? Harbinger, Warder, Rajah, Stalker
2. ? All other?

Damn, this is still very difficult for me...

It's kind of hard to make direct comparisons because their ability spreads and chosen disciplines all lend themselves to different playstyles, and all of the classes have multiple viable build paths besides. Mystics also make up for their weaker recovery method with elemental glyphs, which are some of the most powerful and versatile combat buffs in the game and also have some out-of-combat utility.

Yeah, and I think the mystic and rajah are arguably the closest to T2, both having quite a versatility advantage and some very op-friendly features and options the other classes don't have as easy access to.

[Powerdork]

Of the Divergent Paths line: The rajah has a strong foot in the door to akasha, and the medic gains full-speed movement and notable healing as part of the same swift action at level 1, on an encounter basis rather than daily. I'd peg those for "has the most versatility" and "traditionally disrupts the most games in ways that Path of War doesn't already innately do", respectively (which is not to say that those are problems with the material itself).

[Elricaltovilla]

That depends very much on the criteria you use to define the term "strongest" as well as how you define the classes themselves. Are you looking at which class is the strongest when taking into account all PoW/DSP options? Only based on the class features and disciplines in the class entry? Or based strictly on class features alone, with maneuvers entirely separate?

Thanks to the wide variety of discipline swaps available, and the general quality of the disciplines in PoW, I think that your choice of disciplines that you choose to invest in has at least as much effect on your "power level" as the class you chose, if not more so.

[Castilonium]

Best Defender:
Protection Zealot with Practiced Initiator and 1 level of Fiendbound Marauder Warder.

Best Healer:
Creation Zealot with Practiced Initiator and 4 levels of Knight Disciple Paladin for pure HP healing. Medic for healing conditions and ability damage.
"What!? What about Rajahs!?"
Rajahs actually have no class features that make them good at healing or improve their use of Radiant Dawn maneuvers. Not even their Regality feature increases the essence capacity of their maneuvers.

Best Damage Dealer:
Strength-based Destruction Zealot with the Frenzy strikes from Primal Fury, a damage-improving boost, and a bunch of natural attacks.
"Exsqueeze me? Zealots have no class features that give static modifiers to damage like Warlords or Harbingers!"
The entire schtick of Zealots that they have the best maneuver recovery in the game. They can use their best strike and boost every single round. No other class can. They can easily abuse the Frenzy strikes in Primal Fury.
"Okay, well, Frenzy Strike is a 3rd level maneuver. What about character levels 1-4?"
At level 1, use Flurry Strike from Broken Blade with a sansetsukon. At level 3, add in Bronze Knuckle.
"My GM says that Primal Fury and Broken Blade are not allowed. What should I use then?"
The Zenith strikes and Blade boosts from Scarlet Throne.
"These tricks seem to rely on some of the disciplines from the first Path of War book being poorly written and balanced."
Yeah, well. It's unlikely that the disciplines will receive errata, so there you have it.

Best Buffer AND Best Skill Monkey AND Best Out-Of-Combat Utility:
Rajah with Practiced Initiator, 1 level of Rubato Bard, Pageant of the Peacock, Banner of Ancient Kings, Dervish Sikke, and Hero's Hauberk.
"Gasp! Not a Zealot!?"
No king rules forever, my child. Even I know the Zealot's limits.

Honestly, Harbinger and Stalker are some of the less powerful PoW classes. A swift action move is nothing. Anyone can get that with Leaping Dragon, a 1st level maneuver from Thrashing Dragon.

[upho]

Of the Divergent Paths line: The rajah has a strong foot in the door to akasha, and the medic gains full-speed movement and notable healing as part of the same swift action at level 1, on an encounter basis rather than daily. I'd peg those for "has the most versatility" and "traditionally disrupts the most games in ways that Path of War doesn't already innately do", respectively (which is not to say that those are problems with the material itself).

Good point about the medic's rather awesome Triage action economy. Can also get quite versatile with the right Expertises.

That said, I believe the base healing and especially the additional movement can quite easily be replicated via maneuvers. So I think the mystic and the rajah can easily be made quite a bit more versatile, and especially the rajah can become more "uniquely disruptive" (the very unique combat mechanics and many strong related options combined with veilweaving progression and easy access to akashic stuff make for one extremely potent unique package).

Speaking of "uniquely disruptive", I believe the Fiendbound Marauder's 1st level fiend's grips feature at least can easily be made so, making some quite ridiculously strong melee control combos possible. So I guess one could say archetype isn't necessarily particularly disruptive per default or in a "does highly unique specific thing"-sense, but rather in a "can combine several strong things and do them simultaneously better and with greater synergy than any other class"-sense, especially when combined with one or a few matching dips (like Tetori monk 4, Monk of the Silver Fist 1, Privateer 1 (for dirty trick and demoralization shenanigans) or Primal Disciple barb 2+). For example, AFAIK very few classes - if any - in the game besides perhaps an "co-opportunist" Hussar build can match the FM's ability to reliably pull off insanely long offensive action chain stunts (based on reach, free action combat maneuvers and AoOs). And the game otherwise doesn't allow for such potentially extreme action economy, at least not on anything approaching regular basis before high levels (with stuff like time stop, quickened spells, certain high level maneuvers and similar).

[Elricaltovilla]

Best Damage Dealer:
Strength-based Destruction Zealot with the Frenzy strikes from Primal Fury, a damage-improving boost, and a bunch of natural attacks.
"Exsqueeze me? Zealots have no class features that give static modifiers to damage like Warlords or Harbingers!"
The entire schtick of Zealots that they have the best maneuver recovery in the game. They can use their best strike and boost every single round. No other class can. They can easily abuse the Frenzy strikes in Primal Fury.
"Okay, well, Frenzy Strike is a 3rd level maneuver. What about character levels 1-4?"
At level 1, use Flurry Strike from Broken Blade with a sansetsukon. At level 3, add in Bronze Knuckle.
"My GM says that Primal Fury and Broken Blade are not allowed. What should I use then?"
The Zenith strikes and Blade boosts from Scarlet Throne.
"These tricks seem to rely on some of the disciplines from the first Path of War book being poorly written and balanced."
Yeah, well. It's unlikely that the disciplines will receive errata, so there you have it.

Honestly, Harbinger and Stalker are some of the less powerful PoW classes. A swift action move is nothing. Anyone can get that with Leaping Dragon, a 1st level maneuver from Primal Fury.

That said, I believe the base healing and especially the additional movement can quite easily be replicated via maneuvers. So I think the mystic and the rajah can easily be made quite a bit more versatile, and especially the rajah can become more "uniquely disruptive" (the very unique combat mechanics and many strong related options combined with veilweaving progression and easy access to akashic stuff make for one extremely potent unique package).

As you can see here in Castilonium and upho's posts, your choice of maneuvers has at least as much (if not more) effect on your character's strength as your chosen class. It's hard to play a healer if you don't have access to Silver Crane or Radiant Dawn, for example.

Though as a point of order, Leaping Dragon is from the Thrashing Dragon discipline, not Primal Fury.

[upho]

That depends very much on the criteria you use to define the term "strongest" as well as how you define the classes themselves. Are you looking at which class is the strongest when taking into account all PoW/DSP options? Only based on the class features and disciplines in the class entry? Or based strictly on class features alone, with maneuvers entirely separate?

Yep, these undefined parameters, and that it's very difficult to define them well enough for a fair comparison, make up a large part of the reason why giving an accurate answer to the question is so hard. I think the rest of that reason comes from the fact that the PoW classes and their archetypes/templates are far more well balanced than Paizo stuff, at least when not considering the most high-op builds some classes or class combos allow for.

Thanks to the wide variety of discipline swaps available, and the general quality of the disciplines in PoW, I think that your choice of disciplines that you choose to invest in has at least as much effect on your "power level" as the class you chose, if not more so.

Yes, but if you still wanna find out which class is the strongest for some reason, what you're saying here is thankfully a good thing, since it means you rarely have to consider the classes' default discipline access.

Best Defender:
Protection Zealot with Practiced Initiator and 1 level of Fiendbound Marauder Warder.

Oh yes, that combo is just sick. Or at least it has great potential to be. However, if we start comparing stuff also at a more build specific level, many things become quite a bit different. And it most likely becomes a lot easier to answer the question, at least if we also limit the comparison to say only very high-op and/or very low-op builds.

"What!? What about Rajahs!?"
Rajahs actually have no class features that make them good at healing or improve their use of Radiant Dawn maneuvers. Not even their Regality feature increases the essence capacity of their maneuvers.

Wait, do people believe the rajah is a healing-focused class? And if so, do you (or anyone else) know where that belief comes from?

Best Damage Dealer:
Strength-based Destruction Zealot with the Frenzy strikes from Primal Fury, a damage-improving boost, and a bunch of natural attacks.

Don't forget the aegis tentacles, barbazu beard, dwarven boulder helmet and - most importantly - the (in)famous sea knives! Which reminds m-...!

...

*regains some measure of control after another hysterical Castilonium-induced giggle-fit*

(Damn it, you reminded me yet again of when you were making your Bronze Boar example build and asked about those darn sea knives. Yeah, that will remain comedy gold to me forever, apparently. So now I had to get up to walk off another stupid giggle-fit and wipe off the tears running down my face again. Could you please just stop posting reminders like this, for my sake? 'Cause even after all this time, every time I happen to read one of them I still end up laughing uncontrollably, making it impossible for me to do anything even remotely productive for several minutes, on top of giving me a sore tummy for days!)


More seriously though, I have to ask what op-level and which character level ranges you're assuming in order to conclude that a "frenzied zealot" build is stronger than a build based on any other PoW class?

If comparing builds at the highest and probably also a few lower op-levels, at least from about mid character level, I suspect a "supercharger" or "gunship" build based on the Hussar warlord will surpass any striker build based on the zealot, especially if looking at actual damage dealt or overall combat effectiveness in a real game. This would mostly be thanks to a Hussar actually being two creatures with great offensive action economy, mobility and pure damage boost synergies and co-op options, none of which a build based on the zealot can access or get much use out of.

So while it's not quite as easy and straightforward to build a supercharger warlord as it is to build a frenzied zealot for bonkers melee striker potential, I'd wager the Hussar build has quite a bit higher op-ceiling and improves more dramatically than the zealot during especially levels past 9th or so.

As a more concrete example, I wouldn't be surprised if a high-op supercharger warlord can end up quite a bit stronger than the Bronze Boar in a real game.
"Say what? Are you suggesting one of your filthy little piglet-riding peasants is usurping my mighty Bronze Boar on the striker throne?"
Hey, don't blame me, blame the stupid allosauruses, elasmotheriums and warcats piglets who agreed to get 'roided up beyond recognition on druid stuff and get pimped up in bling to drag around filthy little peasants!

So, you up for a "frenzied zealot vs supercharger warlord" striker build-off? A smelly 'roided piglet in bling and the filthy little peasant on its back wants to know...

"Exsqueeze me? Zealots have no class features that give static modifiers to damage like Warlords or Harbingers!"
The entire schtick of Zealots that they have the best maneuver recovery in the game. They can use their best strike and boost every single round. No other class can. They can easily abuse the Frenzy strikes in Primal Fury.

Well, yes, but the value of a move action default recovery method isn't anywhere near equal for all initiator builds. There are several very strong ones which wouldn't be noticeably improved if the recovery feature of their primary initiator class was changed into a move action, and a few would be better off without such a change. And when it comes to high-op builds, they tend to have at least enough spamming ability for those few rounds per encounter when it matters, regardless of the action needed for their primary class' default recovery feature, or they simply achieve greatness without the need for spamming. And no, the Frenzy strikes aren't necessarily all striker builds' wet dream; some striker builds - most notably ranged ones - can reliably take out more enemies using other strikes or full attacks, and a few may even do so more effectively in melee than a "frenzied zealot" build can.

"These tricks seem to rely on some of the disciplines from the first Path of War book being poorly written and balanced."
Yeah, well. It's unlikely that the disciplines will receive errata, so there you have it.

Yeah, happened first to WotC and ToB and now to DSP and PoW. Seems there's some kind of really EVIL higher power which really don't want initiator related material to get complete official errata and loves to see promises broken and people waiting and hoping in vain.

Honestly, Harbinger and Stalker are some of the less powerful PoW classes. A swift action move is nothing. Anyone can get that with Leaping Dragon, a 1st level maneuver from Primal Fury.

Yep.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I’m playing a Radiant Dawn-specialist veiled lord Warlord right now, and I’d say that Radiant Dawn definitely can make any class a spectacular healer; however, the Warlord’s recovery method holds the class back a lot. But Upho, I think in terms of leader role, Warlord still edges out Medic; presences, teamwork feats, plus a host of other non-maneuver benefits.

[Thunder999]

I feel like Mystic's magic item crafting has to count for something here, breaking WBL and getting to make wands or scrolls without actually having access to the spells they cast is always strong.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think from a sheer versatility standpoint, a mention ought to be made for Polymath Alchemists or Investigators, Warpath Follower Inquisitors and Hidden Blade/Eldritch scoundrel (I think that's the right archetype) rogues. The sheer breadth of options available to those archetypes thanks to having skills, spells and maneuvers natively makes them very potent jack of all trades.

[Firechanter]

I'm not too canny on the finer details of the Paths of War, so I don't know which is strongest, but the ones I like best are Warlord and Zweihänder Warder. Lots of potential there, I can think of plenty of characters I'd want to play with just these two classes.

Btw Eric, what are the odds of DSP picking up the 3E slack now that Paizo have gone bonkers? ;)

[Elricaltovilla]

.

Btw Eric, what are the odds of DSP picking up the 3E slack now that Paizo have gone bonkers? ;)

It's Elric, not Eric. And I can't answer that question.

[Kris Moonhand]

The answer is, of course, Batal Rajah. With Sword of the Sun King, plus The Memory and The Specialist veils, you can make an archer (Orc Hornbow with your free exotic weapon) who lays down massive, sweeping explosions of recurring akashic flame, while debuffing your foes. Any other veils you get after that are just gravy. And that's before you even get to the maneuvers.

Initiate a standard or full-round strike and a boost on the first turn, dealing strike damage to your target and Sun King damage to surrounding enemies, and activate The Memory on your Sun King burst. When your turn rolls around again, The Memory echo explodes on any enemy who didn't or wasn't able to get out, then another standard strike and a boost (unless you did a counter earlier), another Sun King burst (again echoed with The Memory), then your Batal's Mandate as a move action. Lather, rinse, repeat. And remember, both the Sun King burst and The Memory echo specifically state that they only damage enemies, so fire with impunity!

I've used Batal to absolutely dominate combat, so much so that my DM demanded to see my sheet to make sure I wasn't cheating.

Wait, do people believe the rajah is a healing-focused class? And if so, do you (or anyone else) know where that belief comes from?

If I had to guess, it's because it has native access to Radiant Dawn and a much bigger pool of Essence than a Medic with RD would have. It's not exactly a wrong assumption, cuz a Rajah can heal quite well. But I wouldn't call them a "healer". Rajah is a support class that happens to be able to heal.

[Castilonium]

Wait, do people believe the rajah is a healing-focused class? And if so, do you (or anyone else) know where that belief comes from?

Yes, I have seen several people who erroneously believe that. I suspect it's because Rajah and Radiant Dawn were released at the same time and are thematically similar. People mentally associated them with each other and just assumed that Rajahs are the best at using RD.

*regains some measure of control after another hysterical Castilonium-induced giggle-fit*
Could you please just stop posting reminders like this, for my sake? 'Cause even after all this time, every time I happen to read one of them I still end up laughing uncontrollably, making it impossible for me to do anything even remotely productive for several minutes, on top of giving me a sore tummy for days!)

Mwahahahaha! Never! I'll keep reminding you until hysterical laughter becomes a Pavlovian response to seeing my posts!

More seriously though, I have to ask what op-level and which character level ranges you're assuming in order to conclude that a "frenzied zealot" build is stronger than a build based on any other PoW class?

If comparing builds at the highest and probably also a few lower op-levels, at least from about mid character level, I suspect a "supercharger" or "gunship" build based on the Hussar warlord will surpass any striker build based on the zealot, especially if looking at actual damage dealt or overall combat effectiveness in a real game. This would mostly be thanks to a Hussar actually being two creatures with great offensive action economy, mobility and pure damage boost synergies and co-op options, none of which a build based on the zealot can access or get much use out of.

So while it's not quite as easy and straightforward to build a supercharger warlord as it is to build a frenzied zealot for bonkers melee striker potential, I'd wager the Hussar build has quite a bit higher op-ceiling and improves more dramatically than the zealot during especially levels past 9th or so.

As a more concrete example, I wouldn't be surprised if a high-op supercharger warlord can end up quite a bit stronger than the Bronze Boar in a real game.
"Say what? Are you suggesting one of your filthy little piglet-riding peasants is usurping my mighty Bronze Boar on the striker throne?"
Hey, don't blame me, blame the stupid allosauruses, elasmotheriums and warcats piglets who agreed to get 'roided up beyond recognition on druid stuff and get pimped up in bling to drag around filthy little peasants!

So, you up for a "frenzied zealot vs supercharger warlord" striker build-off? A smelly 'roided piglet in bling and the filthy little peasant on its back wants to know...

The original goal with the Bronze Boar build was to make as many attacks as possible in one round, consistently every round, to get as many temporary hitpoints as possible from Golden Lion Command. If we switch the goal to dealing as much DPR as possible by exchanging Golden Lion Command for damaging-improving boosts, I think ol' Bronzie will still top the damage charts! If only due to the sheer number of attacks. (For readers following at home, The Bronze Boar is a build at very end of the Zealot guide in my signature.)

At level 1, he's just a typical Ragebred Skinwalker Aegis natural weapon full attacker with 2 claws, 2 hooves, a bite, 3 tentacles, and a free +2 enhancement to strength. 8 attacks. That goes up to 9 at level 2 and 10 at level 3. Nothing special happens at level 4, and then at level 5 he gains Fury Strike from IL5 Zealot, and Reaching Blade Stance (MC 1) and a damaging boost or two from Initiator's Soul, like Strength of Hell (BS 1), Bronze Knuckle (BB 2), or Obsidian Razor Style (SM 2). Now he can add on a bunch of goofy weapons that don't occupy his hands. Without any magical items, he makes 20 attacks with Fury Strike. Before other modifiers, each one deals +1d6 from Reaching Blade Stance, +2d6 from Fury Strike, and some more from the damaging boost. As he levels up, he gains more and more attacks and damage by getting magic items and switching out what stances and maneuvers he uses.

I think that compared to even a lancepouncing Hussar and their mount, he has many more attacks and deals a lot more bonus damage on each one. What he lacks is mobility... Unless he gets a mount himself! He could either get a Buraq horse via Nature Soul + Animal Ally (Boon Companion Optional), or get a Mauler familiar from a variety of ways and either start small sized or use Undersized Mount to ride it. Now the Bronze Boar and the Hussar are on more even footing! Or hoofing!

Well, yes, but the value of a move action default recovery method isn't anywhere near equal for all initiator builds. There are several very strong ones which wouldn't be noticeably improved if the recovery feature of their primary initiator class was changed into a move action, and a few would be better off without such a change. And when it comes to high-op builds, they tend to have at least enough spamming ability for those few rounds per encounter when it matters, regardless of the action needed for their primary class' default recovery feature, or they simply achieve greatness without the need for spamming. And no, the Frenzy strikes aren't necessarily all striker builds' wet dream; some striker builds - most notably ranged ones - can reliably take out more enemies using other strikes or full attacks, and a few may even do so more effectively in melee than a "frenzied zealot" build can.

I mostly agree. I thought about ranged builds, and people know how much damage things like Arsenal Chaplain Warpriests can do. Funnily, full attacker archery PoW builds don't seem to catch up to the damage of full attacker archery 1pp Paizo builds until level 15. Then a Bushi Warlord can use Solar Hailstorm Stance (SW 8) and full attack with the Aurora Break boost (SW 8) every round.

[Powerdork]

On the topic of "innately" and class focuses: It's not hard to separate the disciplines from the classes that get them as starting disciplines, but it has to be intentful. Someone who's choosing to use the warlord for the refined swashbuckling won't swap in Silver Crane or Radiant Dawn without good reason, and someone who's choosing to use the rajah has to decide that Radiant Dawn isn't part of its powerset if they're deciding that they're swapping a discipline out for, say, Unquiet Grave. Those swaps are valid and supported, but they're also not what the classes in question present themselves as, and presentation informs use on an important level.

[upho]

The answer is, of course, Batal Rajah.

And lo, a bright new star has risen to challenge the wicked zealots, warders and warlords of old!

The Specialist of battle, he wields the Hornbow of the Orcs and the Sword of the Sun King
The Memory and essence of ancient Akasha, he comes veiled in fire, rising as the Radiant Dawn

Behold his mighty Mandate to walk the Path of War
Bravely battling Boars of Bronze and Brutes on Beasts

Feel the debuffing heat of his Akashic Flames!
Hear the bursts of the Sun King echo across the planes!

And know that Judgement Day has arrived: The Batal.
...

Do you think I managed to capture the essence (pun intended) of your thoughts on the Batal well enough?

I've used Batal to absolutely dominate combat, so much so that my DM demanded to see my sheet to make sure I wasn't cheating.

And do you know approximately how challenging the combats were? Did your batal happen absolutely dominate also a few combats of a CR higher than your level +10 or so?

If I had to guess, it's because it has native access to Radiant Dawn and a much bigger pool of Essence than a Medic with RD would have. It's not exactly a wrong assumption, cuz a Rajah can heal quite well. But I wouldn't call them a "healer". Rajah is a support class that happens to be able to heal.

Ok. Thanks. Still seems a bit weird, considering the Rajah isn't much of a healer in comparison to the classes actually designed for that function.

Speaking of, I personally see healing as a sub-category or part of support (or the "leader" combat role in 4e-ish lingo), not as a proper combat role/function in and of itself. But I've come to suspect this differs from how many (or even most?) other PF players sees it.

[upho]

But Upho, I think in terms of leader role, Warlord still edges out Medic; presences, teamwork feats, plus a host of other non-maneuver benefits.

You may very well be right about this. I've only built and played two rather low-level medic NPCs in a few sessions back when the class was still pretty new, so I honestly don't think I'm an especially trustworthy source when it comes to the medic.

It may however be worth mentioning again that I see at least combat healing as a leader function, and at least as far as I can remember, the medic can indeed live up to its name and effectively use healing as a meaningful tactical combat tool (an ability it shares basically only with the Oradin, Vitalist and highly healing-focused zealot builds AFAIK).

I feel like Mystic's magic item crafting has to count for something here, breaking WBL and getting to make wands or scrolls without actually having access to the spells they cast is always strong.

Indeed. And it's one of the reasons why I believe it's probably the most versatile of all PoW classes (and the closest to T2).

I think from a sheer versatility standpoint, a mention ought to be made for Polymath Alchemists or Investigators, Warpath Follower Inquisitors and Hidden Blade/Eldritch scoundrel (I think that's the right archetype) rogues. The sheer breadth of options available to those archetypes thanks to having skills, spells and maneuvers natively makes them very potent jack of all trades.

Definitely.

Although get a headache just from thinking about including them in the comparison, as builds of these class archetypes/templates have a lower op-floor and often also a higher ceiling in terms of versatility than the full initiator classes IME. And then I start feeling nauseated when I next consider that a meaningful comparison of the Warpath Follower probably requires that the Battle Templar is taken into account, which in turn would mean that class combos including any of the initiator PrCs should also be included in the comparison...

[Elricaltovilla]

.

Although get a headache just from thinking about including them in the comparison, as builds of these class archetypes/templates have a lower op-floor and often also a higher ceiling in terms of versatility than the full initiator classes IME. And then I start feeling nauseated when I next consider that a meaningful comparison of the Warpath Follower probably requires that the Battle Templar is taken into account, which in turn would mean that class combos including any of the initiator PrCs should also be included in the comparison...

Think about it this way: with all these different combinations of classes, archetypes, maneuvers, etc. You'll never be at a loss for new builds to try out.

And a suggestion for playing medic: Bolstering Treatment plus Doctor's Advice, plus the Helpful trait lets you give an ally a +6 aid another bonus as a swift action. Or you can do it to yourself.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Think about it this way: with all these different combinations of classes, archetypes, maneuvers, etc. You'll never be at a loss for new builds to try out.

Dividing the number of GMs that allow me to play Path of War by all the PoW character builds I have makes for very sad arithmetic.

[Elricaltovilla]

Dividing the number of GMs that allow me to play Path of War by all the PoW character builds I have makes for very sad arithmetic.

That's where you become a GM and create a PoW centered campaign and use all your build ideas as NPCs and villains for the party to fight.

Make the starting point of the plot an attack on the PCs' dojo that results in the death of their beloved sensei and his young family, sending them on a roaring rampage of revenge where they travel around the countryside trying to hunt down the dojo stormer responsible for the death of their sensei, only to discover a deeper, more sinister government plot to control the growth and use of martial disciplines in the public in order to exert societal control and consolidate power in the hands of a few master initiators, allowing the members of this conspiracy to control the nation from the shadows while they pillage its resources and people to find an access a legendary martial arts tower that is said to grant the wishes of anyone who reaches the top of the tower...

No, I definitely never had anything like this planned before... Why do you ask?

[Kris Moonhand]

...snipped for sass...

And do you know approximately how challenging the combats were? Did your batal happen absolutely dominate also a few combats of a CR higher than your level +10 or so?

I dunno, but I've definitely no-selled encounters made for an entire party before.

Ok. Thanks. Still seems a bit weird, considering the Rajah isn't much of a healer in comparison to the classes actually designed for that function.

Speaking of, I personally see healing as a sub-category or part of support (or the "leader" combat role in 4e-ish lingo), not as a proper combat role/function in and of itself. But I've come to suspect this differs from how many (or even most?) other PF players sees it.

I think that most classes people think of as healers... aren't. Things like Cleric or Bard are not healers, they're supports who can heal. The only real healers are classes like Vitalist and Medic, who can overcome or ignore the normal restrictions of healing (check out this great post by Psyren for more on that) and heal while doing other things (preferably hurting the baddies).

[upho]

Mwahahahaha! Never! I'll keep reminding you until hysterical laughter becomes a Pavlovian response to seeing my posts!

I think you've already achieved that goal...

The original goal with the Bronze Boar build was to make as many attacks as possible in one round, consistently every round, to get as many temporary hitpoints as possible from Golden Lion Command.

Yeah, I've tried imagine an even more insane all-out damage build using the same basic chassis.

If we switch the goal to dealing as much DPR as possible by exchanging Golden Lion Command for damaging-improving boosts, I think ol' Bronzie will still top the damage charts! If only due to the sheer number of attacks.

Well, you may very well be correct if we're measuring total DPR dealt to several targets in advantageous circumstances. Which might translate into say "total DPR during rounds when the Bronze Boar starts his turn able to target at least four enemies with Primal Frenzy without moving".

Without any magical items, he makes 20 attacks with Fury Strike. Before other modifiers, each one deals +1d6 from Reaching Blade Stance, +2d6 from Fury Strike, and some more from the damaging boost. As he levels up, he gains more and more attacks and damage by getting magic items and switching out what stances and maneuvers he uses.

So far, this seems to be pretty much what I was thinking as well.

I think that compared to even a lancepouncing Hussar and their mount, he has many more attacks and deals a lot more bonus damage on each one.

If you could get some approximate numbers for this "DPR Gold Boar" at 15th, we could compare them to those of a similarly silly 15th level warlord supercharger build I made.

Spoiler: Bork and Barbie "The Thump ‘n’ Bump Butcher Buddies” - 15th Level DPR Estimations of Bork

Show

EDIT: Added a bit more info, and fixed some of the numbers and a few other minor details that were off. /EDIT

Half-orc Barbarian (Primal Disciple) 2, Brawler (Mutagenic Mauler, Wild Child) 1, Warlord (Hussar) 11, Mammoth Rider 1
CN Huge humanoid (human, orc)

The Basic Mechanical Concept and Combo
Bork is a half-orc (for the Shaman Enhancement ART, warlord bonus feats FCB and the Amplified Rage teamwork feat) who rides Barbie, a Gargantuan elasmotherium animal companion. With mutagen, rage, Amplified Rage, the ferocious mount rage power, a horsemaster's saddle, a dorje of metamorphosis and a wand of animal growth, Bork has a Str of 38 while raging, and Barbie a whopping 52. In Iron Hide Stance, Bork's Str bonus to damage increases from +14 to +28, and to +56 on all his charge attacks thanks to the Horn of the Criosphinx feat and the brawler's martial training feature. Using essence primarily from Radiant Dawn maneuvers, Bork also gets super cheap magic weapon abilities from essence forged gauntlets, and a +3d6 (cold, electricity and sonic) damage bonus to all attacks from a bound Storm Gauntlets veil, and he adds an additional +4d6 to charge attacks from a mammoth hide.

To maximize the number and accuracy of his attacks especially during a charge, Bork has several primary natural attacks from magic items and metamorphosis, and uses a pair of giant fist gauntlets to get a free action bull rush on every hit with his five most accurate and damaging claw attacks. Each successful bull rush in turn grants a free less damaging but very accurate attack from Barbie's bound Armbands of the Irked Elephant veil which she shares with him, and each successful bull rush also triggers an equally highly accurate AoO (up to 4/round excluding temporary boosts) thanks to Greater Bull Rush and the Paired Opportunists teamwork feat Bork shares with Barbie via the horsemaster's saddle.

To further capitalize on the five bull rushes which Bork can make as part of a pounce, he has the Demonic Style combat style feat chain, culminating in Demonic Slaughter which allows him to use Great Cleave as a free action instead of a standard action, with the initial attack made against the target successfully bull rushed during his charge. In addition, each bull rush can deal substantial damage thanks to Bork's Merciless Rush and Raging Throw feats, which also allow their associated bull rush damage instances to benefit from some of his greatest damage boosts.

Though not part of the DPR estimation below, Barbie can also make several unusually accurate and damaging attacks as part of a mounted charge using a very similar combo, using pounce gained from the Evolved Companion feat, magic items and her extremely high Str to great effect. Thanks to the Minotaur's Charge feat, every hit she scores as part of a charge also triggers a bull rush, which in turn provokes one AoO from Bork and one from herself due to Greater Bull Rush and Paired Opportunists. Of course, she also wears a mammoth hide and has Merciless Rush to increase the damage of her pounces dramatically.


ATTACKS AND DPR OF TYPICAL TURN
Iron Hide Stance, Primal Hunter Pounce, Adamantine Knuckle vs Tarrasque (AC 40, CMD 66, 525 hp, DR 15/epic), not including additional damage from crits.

1. Attacks Made as Part of Charge Action 1,483.25 DPR
5 "Worldbreaker’s Claws" +37 (8d6+78 +13d6 = 151.5 x 5) = 757.5 x 0.9 = 681.75
2 metamorphosis claws +36 (4d8+78 +13d6 = 141.5 x 2) = 283 x 0.85 = 240.55
2 talons +36 (4d6+78 +13d6 = 137.5 x 2) = 275 x 0.85 = 233.75
Bite and gore +35 (4d6+78 +13d6 = 137.5 x 2) = 275 x 0.8 = 220
Sting +35 (3d6+78 +13d6 = 133) = 134 x 0.8 = 107.2

Charge Bull Rushes with Merciless Rush and Raging Throw 1,154.25 DPR
5 "Worldbreaker’s Claws" +62 (72/78 +13d6 = (117.5+123.5) x 5) = 1,215 x 0.85

Charge Armbands of the Irked Elephant Attacks 349.125 DPR
5 Irked Elephant attacks +41 (28 +13d6 = 73.5 x 5) = 367.5 x 0.95


2. Demonic Slaughter Great Cleave 329.875 DPR
5 "Worldbreaker’s Claws" +32 (8d6+42 +9d6 = 101.5 x 5) = 507.5 x 0.65

Demonic Slaughter Bull Rushes with Merciless Rush and Raging Throw 429 DPR
5 "Worldbreaker’s Claws" +57 (36/42 +9d6 = (68.5+74.5) x 5) = 715 x 0.6

Demonic Slaughter Cleave Armbands of the Irked Elephant Attacks 218.875 DPR
5 Irked Elephant attacks +36 (20 +9d6 = 51.5 x 5) = 257.5 x 0.85


3. Greater Bull Rush Opportunists AoOs 345.1 DPR
4 "Worldbreaker’s Claws" +36 (8d6+42 +9d6 = 101.5 x 4) = 406 x 0.85

Opportunists AoOs Bull Rushes with Merciless Rush and Raging Throw 457.6 DPR
4 "Worldbreaker’s Claws" +61 (36/42 +9d6 = (68.5+74.5) x 4) 572 x 0.8

Opportunists AoOs Armbands of the Irked Elephant Attacks 195.7 DPR
4 Irked Elephant attacks +40 (20 +9d6 = 51.5 x 4) = 206 x 0.95


TOTAL ESTIMATED MINIMUM AVERAGE DPR vs PRIMARY TARGET: 4,963

Approximate total minimum average kill multiplier of primary target (TPR): 9.45

I'd estimate that if adding Bork's mount Barbie's numbers to the above, the DPR vs the tarrasque would increase to well above 5k and 10 TPR, as in "Tarrasques Per Round" . Pretty stupid, even at 15th level, and most likely silly enough to be beyond even the reach of a same level Synth summoner and make even Rovagug proud of the pair's use of "his" feats...

And speaking of silliness, do you believe the Bronze Boar deal more than an average of 150 damage per hit at this level?

What he lacks is mobility...

Have you looked into the possibilities of giving him a free action counter each round which he could use for movement instead?

Unless he gets a mount himself! He could either get a Buraq horse via Nature Soul + Animal Ally (Boon Companion Optional), or get a Mauler familiar from a variety of ways and either start small sized or use Undersized Mount to ride it. Now the Bronze Boar and the Hussar are on more even footing! Or hoofing!

Whoa, no, I really wouldn't recommend that! Or rather, at least not if you expect the mount to be worth the investments for more than at most a few levels after 8th level when the Bronze Boar's character level becomes higher than his EDL (with Boon Companion). ACs in general become notoriously fragile and poor in combat if their EDL lags behind, and having an EDL = level is practically a minimum non-negotiable requirement for mounts of high-op melee builds. So this won't be worth the costs, especially because neither the mount or the Bronze Boar has the abilities needed to turn the poor animal into something more than at best a glorified taxi during a few levels before 8th, nor can they prevent it from turning into a black hole swallowing up the Bronze Boar's resources while giving very little back in return.

Yes, the buraq truly is fantastic, but it's not much better off if its progression starts lagging behind. Likewise, I unfortunately believe riding a familiar isn't any more viable for high-op melee (though it can of course be a great for ranged builds), and certainly not for a build as dependent on reach and Str as the Bronze Boar.

I mostly agree. I thought about ranged builds, and people know how much damage things like Arsenal Chaplain Warpriests can do. Funnily, full attacker archery PoW builds don't seem to catch up to the damage of full attacker archery 1pp Paizo builds until level 15. Then a Bushi Warlord can use Solar Hailstorm Stance (SW 8) and full attack with the Aurora Break boost (SW 8) every round.

Yeah, in comparison to Paizo builds, I believe PoW builds using guns typically have a more notable advantage from earlier levels, mostly thanks to having far better access to free hand reloads and various other mechanics to better deal with many of the downsides of guns while they can still for example dip Trench Fighter Myrmidon 3 for as cheap Dex to damage as Paizo-only builds.

[Kaouse]

Ascendant Aegis with 14+ CON or a Host of Heroes Aegis with 9+ customization points in the Champion Monomyth. Either of the two get access to a floating feat that can be spent on Advanced Study.

Initiator's Soul + floating Advanced Study = access to literally the entire system of Path of War.

Both of these archetypes give up on-the-spot Reconfiguration, but it's still an immense amount of day-to-day versatility. And at level 16, they can take advantage of Psychic Reformation through the Harness Power Stone line of customizations.

[upho]

On the topic of "innately" and class focuses: It's not hard to separate the disciplines from the classes that get them as starting disciplines, but it has to be intentful. Someone who's choosing to use the warlord for the refined swashbuckling won't swap in Silver Crane or Radiant Dawn without good reason, and someone who's choosing to use the rajah has to decide that Radiant Dawn isn't part of its powerset if they're deciding that they're swapping a discipline out for, say, Unquiet Grave. Those swaps are valid and supported, but they're also not what the classes in question present themselves as, and presentation informs use on an important level.

This is often true, but my hunch is that it's actually more often not if we're talking about say mid-op or higher builds past early levels. One of the main reasons for this is that a few disciplines include maneuvers with more unique and universally great benefits, each such maneuver clearly superior to at least one other possible alternative readied maneuver of the same level for most classes and builds in a large majority of specific situations. The two most notable such disciplines are the "ketchup discipline" Riven Hourglass with its amazing action economy enhancers, and Radiant Dawn with its great versatile defensive maneuvers and "free" essence making some akashic options fantastic.

Another reason is that most starting disciplines are primarily matching their respective classes/archetypes individually and on the basis of flavor theme and intended combat role/function, but less together as a set on the basis of optimal mechanical strength and synergies. And yet another reason is of course that two easily accessible disciplines have been published since the release of PoW:E.

So from a purely mechanical perspective, I often find many sets of starting disciplines a bit too focused on the class'/archetype's theme and intended combat role/function, making one or more of the disciplines mechanically more redundant and clearly weaker than a more universally great alternative not included in the starting set.

I dunno, but I've definitely no-selled encounters made for an entire party before.

If we're talking about encounters of approximately the same difficulty as those you face in a Paizo AP played as written, I think nearly all PoW classes can be built to do that, the strongest ones quite easily. I believe you won't notice much of a difference between the classes in this regard unless the difficulty of encounters and the power of the individual opponents, probably to above approximately a CR equal to level +7 or so in higher levels.

I think that most classes people think of as healers... aren't. Things like Cleric or Bard are not healers, they're supports who can heal. The only real healers are classes like Vitalist and Medic, who can overcome or ignore the normal restrictions of healing (check out this great post by Psyren for more on that) and heal while doing other things (preferably hurting the baddies).

I agree that very few classes can gain effective enough healing in combat to actually be called a "healer". But while healer classes focus primarily on removing negative effects from their allies rather than adding positive ones, which "support" classes such as the bard or cleric focus on, healer and support both serve the same general purpose of enabling allies in combat, the very definition of the leader combat role.

Ascendant Aegis with 14+ CON or a Host of Heroes Aegis with 9+ customization points in the Champion Monomyth. Either of the two get access to a floating feat that can be spent on Advanced Study.

Nitpick perhaps, but the Ascendant is neither DSP or Paizo.

Initiator's Soul + floating Advanced Study = access to literally the entire system of Path of War.

Both of these archetypes give up on-the-spot Reconfiguration, but it's still an immense amount of day-to-day versatility.

IME this isn't nearly as much of an advantage in practice as it may seem in theory, because most builds tend to rely on combos including specific maneuvers as well as several other far less easily changed build options. This makes it both difficult to meet prereqs for maneuvers of other disciplines - especially with archetype progression - and unlikely such maneuvers will have much impact during an adventuring day, as they don't get nearly as much support from other build options as the more prioritized or vital maneuvers do. I think you'd need to at least be able to change such maneuvers on the fly in combat for this kind of versatility to actually have an impact.

And at level 16, they can take advantage of Psychic Reformation through the Harness Power Stone line of customizations.

This can however be a major versatility advantage also IME, at least when combined with some way to gain knowledge about what is needed to increase the chances of overcoming the challenges during the next day.

[Seerow]

Ascendant Aegis with 14+ CON or a Host of Heroes Aegis with 9+ customization points in the Champion Monomyth. Either of the two get access to a floating feat that can be spent on Advanced Study.

Initiator's Soul + floating Advanced Study = access to literally the entire system of Path of War.

Both of these archetypes give up on-the-spot Reconfiguration, but it's still an immense amount of day-to-day versatility. And at level 16, they can take advantage of Psychic Reformation through the Harness Power Stone line of customizations.

If sheer versatility is what you're after, a martial master myrmidon fighter can gain bonus feats on the fly to spend on maneuvers, giving them much faster access to whatever they need than the Aegis with a feat they can change daily. I don't think it's actually that strong, but definitely super flexible

[upho]

If sheer versatility is what you're after, a martial master myrmidon fighter can gain bonus feats on the fly to spend on maneuvers, giving them much faster access to whatever they need than the Aegis with a feat they can change daily. I don't think it's actually that strong, but definitely super flexible

No, because a Martial Master Myrmidon doesn't gain Advanced Study via martial flexibility long enough to ready the new maneuvers known, and being able to temporarily switch to a stance not already known isn't exactly what I'd call "definitely super flexible".

Only the Contender brawler can temporarily gain the use of maneuvers not already known via martial flexibility, as that archetype's version of the feature also allows for swapping a readied maneuver in place of adding a combat feat.