Has Anyone Tried Paleomythic?

[Palanan]

Paleomythic is a new game from Osprey Publishing, which bills itself as "a roleplaying game of stone and sorcery." The setting is pre-metallurgy, and features monsters, tribes and magic.

The only dice involved seem to be d6s, and from what I can tell of the Amazon preview it seems to be an extremely basic, leaned-out version of a more popular RPG based around the d20. Has anyone tried this? I love the concept, no idea if the execution makes for a playable or enjoyable game.

[Anonymouswizard]

The only dice involved seem to be d6s, and from what I can tell of the Amazon preview it seems to be an extremely basic, leaned-out version of a more popular RPG based around the d20. Has anyone tried this? I love the concept, no idea if the execution makes for a playable or enjoyable game.

I own both Paleomythic and Romance of the Perilous Land (the other game that Osprey Publishing put out at the same time), and while Romance is a leaned out version of a certain d20 system, Paleomythic uses a completely different system. Note I haven't had chance to see if it works in practice.

So the first thing is that there's no class, levels, attributes, or skills in the standard sense. Instead there are twelve descriptive traits, the total number you have is your basic dice poil for actions, traits relevant to the action provide an additional die. Tools also provide an additional die, but these must be clearly distinguishable because a 1 on the tool die breaks the tool and weapons hey special effects if the tool die is a six. Flaws are the opposite of traits, you can't have both of a pair and they remove a die from relevant rolls (but not your basic dice pool). You also have Talents, which are you standards special ability thing, which range from being really good at certain skills to predicting future to being able to enter the spirit world to having up to four pet animals that'll help out once a day.

Basically everything is a single roll, where you take your dice pool abs look to see if you get a six. If you do you succeed, if you don't you fail.

I quite like it in theory, but as I said I haven't had the chance to try it out.

[Willie the Duck]

I have purchased and read through Paleomythic, but have not played it. Here is my review:

First off, the artwork is effective and appropriate. Very much not large-browed Og and Thock in a dung-hovel or the old standby cavemen stereotypes. Certainly some North and South American First Peoples and Pacific Islander inspiration in the art, but nothing specific. One thing a lot of bad media misses about pre-metal societies is how not-different much of their day-to-day lives are to medieval metal-using societies (who were not swimming in metal all over the place either, given the effort required in making it), and this book does not make that mistake.

Next, the setting. The book clearly wants Mu to be moldable to individual groups’ preferences. There’s no long list of NPCs and town names and the like. What is stated about the game world (such as the land being named Mu, and there being example character names and such) seems mostly to facilitate discussing the game (‘Mu’ is a lot easier to state than ‘the game world (whatever you decide to call it)’) and establishing some base expectations about scale and scope and the like.

The game system is rules-light, but in a minimalist way, not a stripped down way (if that makes any sense). Everything is done with a universal resolution mechanic: all activities are a <specific Trait>-test -- you roll a # of D6s equal to your number of (currently un-invalidated-through injuries) Traits, plus one extra die if you happen to have the (active) Trait in question, and an additional die for relevant tool (which breaks if you roll a 1 with that die, and may have special effects if it is a die that rolls a 6). You are looking for 6s (most tests requiring only one 6 to succeed).

Related to characters/character creation, there are three main mechanical bits to characters:
•Equipment (like most any game) -- most of these give an extra die [d6] to relevant checks, break on a 1, and are expected to be expended and replenished often.
•Traits – a combination of hit points, ‘level’ (or at least general resolution mechanic bonus), and individual personality differentiator.
•Talents -- sort of a character class, although you can (and will eventually, if not at game start) have more than one. These actually change what you can do, and by that logic are possibly the most defining/powerful.

Of these, I think the nuances of Equipment does the most to mechanically help support/define the setting. Equipment is transitory. There aren't magic items. Heck, there aren’t permanent items as most games have them (where items generally work until actively destroyed, and even systems with damage-to-armor rules generally allow them to be refurbished indefinitely. In this game, all items are damaged every 1 in 6 uses, damage makes them inoperable until repaired, and usually can only be repaired a certain number of times. Also, armor (which acts as ablative damage resistance/ an extra hp) only works for damage values over 1 (it will absorb the second+ point of damage from an attack). Stone-age armor just won’t provide total protection. Another interesting facet is that the cost of items (in ‘gems’ which are most likely semi-precious stones in modern parlance) and construction effort is not based on how useful the item is to a Player Character, but by the number of different raw materials (hide, sinew, plant material, stone, glue, etc.) it takes to make it (and characters are fairly likely to be making much of their equipment). All of this does a really good job of defining the game world.

Traits I feel do the best at defining gameplay. Each character gets a number of traits such as ‘Charismatic,’ ‘Agile,’ and ‘Resilient.’ Each of these define what you are good at (someone with the ‘Agile’ trait gets an extra dice when making an Agile-check), but the total number of (active) traits is the dice pool that extra dice gets added to (so someone with Charismatic, Agile, and Resilient would have 3 dice to make checks in general, and 4 dice to any checks with are Charismatic-, Agile-, and Resilient- checks). They are also hit points in that a point of damage inactivates a given trait. Flaws, by the way, are anti-traits (they don’t subtract from your general pool, but do subtract from specific tests) and you can select up to 2 at character creation to get an equal number of extra Traits.

Talents are a good compromise between a class system and an open-ended skill system. Each one allows you to do something you otherwise couldn’t do, or (particularly the combat ones, but also the food-gathering/crafting ones) do significantly better. There’s certainly ‘Best Options’ depending on campaign style, and I can see that GMs will have to enforce genre-focus to get the campaign they want (not too harshly, though. Mostly in the ‘yes, the Fisher talent only lets you get food, which you can also buy, but no you will not always be able to buy food, so don't just take magic and combat talents’ vein). Magic obviously can be immensely powerful (although magic in general is not as powerful as many settings), but also some of the combat ones (particularly those that grant two attacks in a game with otherwise one-action-per-round action economy). I will be interested in how balanced or unbalanced the game actually becomes when actually played (particularly by each groups resident min-maxer/abuse-finder).

On the subject of balance, I’ll point out the one and only major critique I have of the game. Like many of the White Wolf/WoD games and various versions of Shadowrun have done in the past (to reasonable criticism), this game makes the choice of having distribute-as-you-like build resources for character creation(distribute A points between B options), but advancement based upon the current number of points in a given pool (advancing a pool from A to A+1 costs F(A) ). Thus there are 'strategically best options' for initial character creation which will minimize the overall cost of advancement.

Other than that, I don’t have a lot of criticisms, although there are a few things I personally would have done differently or included or excluded (mostly personal preference issues). A few things I would have dedicated more or fewer pages too. A few tropes I'm dead tired of (a Jungle Girl outfit in equipment, some tooth-filed-to-points Jungle Cannibals who derive mystic power from consuming others) that can easily be ignored. A missed opportunity here and there (lots of different spears, but no atlatls). Nothing that really has to be worked around rather than ignored or added.

Overall, I think the game is strong, focused, and interesting. I look forward to finding a chance to run it (my group is probably not as interested in stone age through bronze age game worlds as I am). The Advancement issue I brought up isn’t actually a problem, per se, rather just a waste of options (and a common thing in various TTRPGs), and no other real issues. Personal (pre-playtest) opinion 90/100.

[Anonymouswizard]

Talents are a good compromise between a class system and an open-ended skill system. Each one allows you to do something you otherwise couldn’t do, or (particularly the combat ones, but also the food-gathering/crafting ones) do significantly better. There’s certainly ‘Best Options’ depending on campaign style, and I can see that GMs will have to enforce genre-focus to get the campaign they want (not too harshly, though. Mostly in the ‘yes, the Fisher talent only lets you get food, which you can also buy, but no you will not always be able to buy food, so don't just take magic and combat talents’ vein). Magic obviously can be immensely powerful (although magic in general is not as powerful as many settings), but also some of the combat ones (particularly those that grant two attacks in a game with otherwise one-action-per-round action economy). I will be interested in how balanced or unbalanced the game actually becomes when actually played (particularly by each groups resident min-maxer/abuse-finder).

On the subject of balance, I’ll point out the one and only major critique I have of the game. Like many of the White Wolf/WoD games and various versions of Shadowrun have done in the past (to reasonable criticism), this game makes the choice of having distribute-as-you-like build resources for character creation(distribute A points between B options), but advancement based upon the current number of points in a given pool (advancing a pool from A to A+1 costs F(A) ). Thus there are 'strategically best options' for initial character creation which will minimize the overall cost of advancement.

I want to note something here: despite not saying it, I suspect that the game really wants you to randomly roll your Traits and Talents when generating a character, considering that you can generate everything including your character's gender and name by rolling d6s and the fact that the example character seems to be entirely randomly generated. Using this would solve a lot of the 'going for combat and magic talents' problem, but might cause players to be disappointed with their characters.

Plus I still think that Beast Tamer is better than most of the magic talents though (and arguably would be considered magic in universe). I'd take 'you have up to four beast friends who hang about near you and will aid you for a few minutes once a day' to 'you can summon dead people with a roll, command them with a roll, and banish them once you don't want to command them again with a roll, but they might attack you if you don't manage to banish them'.

And yeah, the advancement system is pretty awful, I'd just let players pick a new Trait or Talent every five stories (don't worry, if you use the character aging rules they'll start losing traits to old age soon enough).

But as you said, the atmosphere is amazing, it seems to split the artwork between 'African' and 'Native American' and they really have managed to avoid the 'Thog hit mamoth with club' stereotypical caveman. The picture presented is a mixture of hunter-gatherer and early agriculture, with a lot of intelligence and inventiveness but not a lot of technological development. I really wish I had a group willing to give non-D&D fantasy a go.

As a side note, combat takes up about twenty pages including weapon effects and combat related talents but not including monsters (about forty pages, mostly wild animals). It manages to offer more basic options than D&D5e, it's the first game I've seen with 'initiate asphyxiation' being a standard option alongside 'damage equipment' and 'catch your breath' (oh, and 'make area more dangerous'), despite arguably being more minimalist. Other activities and hazards take up 22 pages, so the game expects combat to be important but not exclusively so.

[Willie the Duck]

I want to note something here: despite not saying it, I suspect that the game really wants you to randomly roll your Traits and Talents when generating a character, considering that you can generate everything including your character's gender and name by rolling d6s and the fact that the example character seems to be entirely randomly generated. Using this would solve a lot of the 'going for combat and magic talents' problem, but might cause players to be disappointed with their characters.

This runs into the perennial question of whether a game is more fun by being able to create exactly the character you want, or to be dealt a given hand and playing that hand as best you can. There's no right answer, but random distribution does make fine tuning the system balance much less of an issue (since you can't just choose the optimal choice right from the gate).

Plus I still think that Beast Tamer is better than most of the magic talents though (and arguably would be considered magic in universe). I'd take 'you have up to four beast friends who hang about near you and will aid you for a few minutes once a day' to 'you can summon dead people with a roll, command them with a roll, and banish them once you don't want to command them again with a roll, but they might attack you if you don't manage to banish them'.

Pretty much all the usual suspects for optimal builds are there -- magic, minion-mancy (with the traditional leader, necromancer, and animal master each having a version in the this game), and combat buffs which give you extra actions per round. Of the minions, each has a limitation -- zombies are hard to control and might harm you and your friends if you don't control them well, followers have to be fed (and throwing them into lethal situations usually has RP consequences), and animals are usually some level of flighty/don't understand human terms/what have you. Overall Beast Tamer seems most appropriate to the campaign style (going to have to rewatch some BeastMaster now).

And yeah, the advancement system is pretty awful, I'd just let players pick a new Trait or Talent every five stories (don't worry, if you use the character aging rules they'll start losing traits to old age soon enough).

It has shown up in several TTRPGs (including a couple times in multiple iterations of games, even after the devs clearly had heard from fans on the matter), so it clearly it isn't as universally panned/disliked as I think it must be. I did a breakdown over on The Big Purple regarding advancing to a specific milestone (4 talents, 8 traits, and no flaws) and advancing to that point from starting can cost anywhere from 24 to 46 'stories' (the games XP equivalent). That's a pretty hefty differential.

But as you said, the atmosphere is amazing, it seems to split the artwork between 'African' and 'Native American' and they really have managed to avoid the 'Thog hit mamoth with club' stereotypical caveman. The picture presented is a mixture of hunter-gatherer and early agriculture, with a lot of intelligence and inventiveness but not a lot of technological development. I really wish I had a group willing to give non-D&D fantasy a go.

As a side note, combat takes up about twenty pages including weapon effects and combat related talents but not including monsters (about forty pages, mostly wild animals). It manages to offer more basic options than D&D5e, it's the first game I've seen with 'initiate asphyxiation' being a standard option alongside 'damage equipment' and 'catch your breath' (oh, and 'make area more dangerous'), despite arguably being more minimalist. Other activities and hazards take up 22 pages, so the game expects combat to be important but not exclusively so.

The messaging indicates that the game should be much more than just combat, with a lot of focus on survival. Most of that is going to fall under the purview of the general resolution mechanic. Even RPG staples like sneaking and basic social exchanges are basically just 'make a ____-check and the GM will adjudicate success.' Which is fine. Combat, food-gaining, and item crafting are the ones with major rules support and the ones that need the most rules. I've always felt that a minimalist/rules-light game needs rules (and dice need to be rolled) only where the outcome is uncertain and the GM would have trouble making an impartial ruling. This game clearly hews to that conceit.

[thorr-kan]

Interesting looking game.

Available pdf through DriveThruRPG for $24.99. But also available as an ebook through Amazon for $13.99.

[Willie the Duck]

Interesting looking game.

Available pdf through DriveThruRPG for $24.99. But also available as an ebook through Amazon for $13.99.

Yeah. That one is a head-scratcher. Interestingly Romance of the Perilous Land, another RPG from the same publisher, is being sold in physical form on Amazon for the same price. One wonders if that is in error.

[Anonymouswizard]

This runs into the perennial question of whether a game is more fun by being able to create exactly the character you want, or to be dealt a given hand and playing that hand as best you can. There's no right answer, but random distribution does make fine tuning the system balance much less of an issue (since you can't just choose the optimal choice right from the gate).

Sure, and everyone will fall somewhere different on that line of opinion. I actually quite like the random character creation aspect, as it can send you towards characters you'd never play otherwise but the system is designed so that you're not too far below par. But honestly, I wouldn't be annoyed if I was running and somebody refused to roll their traits and Talents randomly, and I'd allow children to pick one Trait from each established parent that they automatically get.

Pretty much all the usual suspects for optimal builds are there -- magic, minion-mancy (with the traditional leader, necromancer, and animal master each having a version in the this game), and combat buffs which give you extra actions per round. Of the minions, each has a limitation -- zombies are hard to control and might harm you and your friends if you don't control them well, followers have to be fed (and throwing them into lethal situations usually has RP consequences), and animals are usually some level of flighty/don't understand human terms/what have you. Overall Beast Tamer seems most appropriate to the campaign style (going to have to rewatch some BeastMaster now).

Yeah, they're also a problem in that some of the Talents seem to have 'people dislike your powers' as an intended drawback, which probably won't be true in all groups. But there is at least an attempt to balance everything, even if that is 'you have to roll to control the spirit every two minutes'. Minionmancy is definitely a problem, but it's not as bad as I tend to see if (I am never again letting a Shadowrun PC take summoning skills).

And the thing I noticed with the combat Talents is that it's extra Attacks, not extra Tactics or extra actions, so they can be used only if you use your turn to attack, and you don't get the extra wounds or armour breakage from weapon effects. It's a little bit weird, as the 'good at fighting' Talents kind of reduce your incentive to do more than blindly attack. No multiple Shoves or Strangles or Smashes or Restrains, and honestly to me one of the bits of the combat system that looks the most fun is using the various Tactics on human enemies.

It has shown up in several TTRPGs (including a couple times in multiple iterations of games, even after the devs clearly had heard from fans on the matter), so it clearly it isn't as universally panned/disliked as I think it must be. I did a breakdown over on The Big Purple regarding advancing to a specific milestone (4 talents, 8 traits, and no flaws) and advancing to that point from starting can cost anywhere from 24 to 46 'stories' (the games XP equivalent). That's a pretty hefty differential.

Oh, I know, and I tend to houserule it to flat rates for everything. It's especially annoying as character creation treats Traits, Talents, and Flaws as all roughl equal in value but advancement doesn't, so instead of doing my normal 'second rank cost for every increase' I say just give them one new Trait or Talent per age category.

I've seen designers try to justify both this and 'having one amazingly powerful character isn't a problem, and if you think otherwise you're wrong' before. I'm just tired it keeps popping up.

Also didn't realise they were putting out more roleplaying games this year, I'll have to look into those when they come out.

The messaging indicates that the game should be much more than just combat, with a lot of focus on survival. Most of that is going to fall under the purview of the general resolution mechanic. Even RPG staples like sneaking and basic social exchanges are basically just 'make a ____-check and the GM will adjudicate success.' Which is fine. Combat, food-gaining, and item crafting are the ones with major rules support and the ones that need the most rules. I've always felt that a minimalist/rules-light game needs rules (and dice need to be rolled) only where the outcome is uncertain and the GM would have trouble making an impartial ruling. This game clearly hews to that conceit.

Yeah, and I actually quite like it, I kind of wish the game presented 'make an ____-check' as an option for resolving combat without the full system, but eh. The game definitely wants you to focus on scavenging, crafting, and combat seems to be where the game wants you to focus your time, and roughly in that order, and I'm all for it. I think at the very least it's a good example of how you can write a game while giving things other than combat definite but not limiting rules.

[thorr-kan]

The free download from amazon.com is flavorful, informative, and almost a complete game. Check it out. Kindle format only.