The Ultimate Alignment Thread

[Saintheart]

I never get where people think Tony was selling weapons to anyone and everyone and didn't care about the results. Yes, he sold to the US military and presumably other national militaries, but that does not count as selling to everyone and anyone. In fact there is solid evidence that Tony didn't sell to a lot of people and groups. If Tony sold to anyone than his partner Obadiah Stane wouldn't have been going behind his back so much to make sales. That puts Tony in the Neutral listing.

He didn't care about the results as evidenced by his behaviour before he decided selling weapons period was a bad idea. Hence his drinking, womanising, etc., etc. - to try and drown out his conscience.

[HandofShadows]

He didn't care about the results as evidenced by his behaviour before he decided selling weapons period was a bad idea. Hence his drinking, womanising, etc., etc. - to try and drown out his conscience.

Is the drinking, womanizing and general narcissism the real Tony though? Or is it just an act he puts up?

[Bartmanhomer]

Is the drinking, womanizing and general narcissism the real Tony though? Or is it just an act he puts up?

Good question. I want to know that myself.

[Peelee]

Is the drinking, womanizing and general narcissism the real Tony though? Or is it just an act he puts up?

Yes. Marvel heroes are flawed. Take that away from Tony, and he is largely unflawed.

[Willie the Duck]

Is the drinking, womanizing and general narcissism the real Tony though? Or is it just an act he puts up?

He's not bad, he's just drawn that way?

[GloatingSwine]

I never get where people think Tony was selling weapons to anyone and everyone and didn't care about the results. Yes, he sold to the US military and presumably other national militaries, but that does not count as selling to everyone and anyone. In fact there is solid evidence that Tony didn't sell to a lot of people and groups. If Tony sold to anyone than his partner Obadiah Stane wouldn't have been going behind his back so much to make sales. That puts Tony in the Neutral listing.

Tony wasn't paying attention to where the weapons went. He was having fun being the playboy billionaire and showing up for the big the press events. The consequences of what his company made and what effect the name Stark was having on the world didn't become apparent until they happened to him.

[Bartmanhomer]

Yes. Marvel heroes are flawed. Take that away from Tony, and he is largely unflawed.

True. I don't think that Tony is Neutral or Evil. To me Neutral Good. Also, even good characters have flaws that they're not particularly proud of.

[HandofShadows]

Good question. I want to know that myself.

Filmento did a vid about something related that might help you find the answer.

[Saintheart]

Is the drinking, womanizing and general narcissism the real Tony though? Or is it just an act he puts up?

By way of preface:
(1) I only mentioned drinking and womanizing.
(2) Psychoanalysing fictional characters is Serious And Misplaced Business.


Having thrown caution to the wind:

Tony Stark the character in real life would likely be a narcissist, though probably not in the sense you're thinking. The DSM-V more or less assumes narcissistic personality disorder is synonymous with grandiosity, but the DSM has been dumb for a good 2 or 3 generations now. This could lead into a wider discussion about prohibited topics, so I won't go there. Suffice to say grandiosity is no more valid a diagnosis of narcissism than a blind man touching the skin of an elephant diagnosing it as a leather suitcase.

Narcissism is also frequently misdiagnosed as excessive selfishness. It isn't. Neither is it self-centeredness, though at least with the latter it's on the same shooting range. Narcissism, when you get right down to it, is an underlying belief borne out by practice that you are the main character in your own movie. That the world only has relevance as it relates to you, and you alone; hence why we name it after Narcissus. You're not a sociopath, you do believe other people are real, they're just not ... principal cast. Not fully formed.

And for that reason we can't diagnose Tony Stark the character as a narcissist. We haven't stumbled into Baudrillard here, Tony quite literally is the main character in his own movie, an assemblage of Robert Downey Jr's facial tics and muscle movements and nothing more.

But if Tony Stark were an actual person, going by how he behaves, it would be a reasonable inference that he would, indeed, be suffering from narcissism.

A narcissist isn't necessarily an egotist, someone who thinks they are the best. The quickest screen for a narcissist is an inability to appreciate that other people exist, and have thoughts, feelings, and actions unrelated to the narcissist. These thoughts don't have to be good ones, but they have to be linked to the narcissist. ("I'm going to get some gas-- because that jerk never fills the car.") Everything is related back to the narcissist, nothing has its own existence.

The narcissist believes he is the main character in his own movie. Everyone else has a supporting role-- everyone around him becomes a "type." You know how in every romantic comedy, there's always the funny friend who helps the main character figure out her relationship? In the movie, her whole existence is to be there for the main character. But in real life, that funny friend has her own life; she might even be the main character in her own movie, right? Well, the narcissist wouldn't be able to grasp that. Her friends are always supporting characters, that can be called at any hour of the night, that will always be interested in what she is wearing, or what she did. That funny friend isn't just being kind, she doesn't just want to help-- she's personally interested in the narcissist's life. Of course.

A narcissist looks the same every day; he has a "look" with a defining characteristic: a certain haircut; a mustache; a type of clothing, a tattoo. He used these to create an identity in his mind that he will spend a lot of energy keeping up. Because the narcissist's obsession is an identity they have to keep up, which needs to be validated by other people.

Another simple ID for the narcissist: they feel only shame, not guilt. Shame is an external; it rests on exposure, on other people finding out that the image you present to them is not the image that actually exists. Guilt is an internal; it comes from within. Never confuse these.

What is the main consequence of this take on the world? Ironically, it's the crippling inability to fully connect with others. How can you connect with people who are not fully real?

Narcissism also resists cure, because invariably the narcissist says "I don't want to be a narcissist, I want to get better." I. I. I. Me. Me. Me. The world only has relevance insofar as it relates to him or her. No narcissist on Earth ever walked into his doctor's office and said "I think I'm a narcissist and it's hurting my family."

You thought Tony Stark had developed an ethical system whilst napalming the Taliban. He didn't. What he does is about his identity, his self-image. Does he stop weapons production because it's inherently wrong, or is it something else? Let's check the tape:

Obadiah Stane: Tony, we're a weapons manufacturer.
Tony Stark: Obie, I just don't want a body count to be our only legacy.
Obadiah Stane: That's what we do. We're iron mongers. We make weapons.
Tony Stark: It's my name on the side of the building.
Obadiah Stane: And what we do keeps the world from falling into chaos.
Tony Stark: Not based on what I saw. We're not doing a good enough job. We can do better. We're gonna do something else.

What does Tony do when he decides to change? Does he give the order to shut down the factory first? Nope. He holds a press conference first. Because for the narcissist it's about being seen as something. If you're going to expect the world to validate your new identity, you might as well tell them up front who you are now going to be, so they can better reinforce it back to you when you start behaving that way.

Tony Stark: Hey, would it be all right if everyone sat down? [Sitting in front of the podium.] Why don't you just sit down? That way you can see me, and I can... A little less formal and... [Tony takes a bite of his cheeseburger as everyone sits, or squats, down]

James Rhodes: What's up with the love-in?

Pepper Potts: Don't look at me. I don't know what he's up to.

Tony Stark: Good to see you.

Obadiah Stane: Good to see you.

Tony Stark: I never got to say goodbye to Dad. I never got to say goodbye to my father. There's questions that I would have asked him. I would have asked him how he felt about what this company did. If he was conflicted, if he ever had doubts. Or maybe he was every inch the man we all remember from the newsreels. I saw young Americans killed by the very weapons I created to defend them and protect them. And I saw that I had become part of a system that is comfortable with zero accountability.

Reporters: Mr. Stark!

Tony Stark: Hey, Ben.

Reporter (Ben): What happened over there?

Tony Stark: I had my eyes opened. [Tony stands and moves behind the podium.] I came to realize that I have more to offer this world than just making things that blow up. And that is why, effective immediately, I am shutting down the weapons manufacturing division of Stark International [Everyone stands up in commotion.] until such a time as I can decide what the future of the company will be.

Obadiah Stane: I think we're gonna be selling a lot of newspapers. [Standing up beside Tony.]

Tony Stark: What direction it should take, one that I'm comfortable with and is consistent with the highest good for this country, as well. [Tony leaves the stage.

Narcissism is always about shame over guilt; rage over anger; envy over greed ... your future over your past. Notice how it's about what Tony's comfortable with first, not what's in the highest good for the country? Notice how external standards are subordinate to what the guy feels?

This is not conscience. Not unless your God believes exactly what you do, which is unfortunately and exceedingly common.

Has he overcome this by the end of the film? Check the tape:

Tony Stark: I know that it's confusing. It is one thing to question the official story, and another thing entirely to make wild accusations, or insinuate that I'm a superhero.

Christine Everhart: I never said you were a superhero.

Tony Stark: Didn't? Well, good, because that would be outlandish and fantastic. I'm just not the hero type. Clearly. With this laundry list of character defects, all the mistakes I've made, largely public.

James Rhodes: Just stick to the cards, man.

Tony Stark: Yeah, okay. Yeah. The truth is... I am Iron Man.

I. I. I. Me. Me. Me. And no, him saying he's not the hero type doesn't disqualify him either; because the next thing he says is about his own features, his own acts. The world only matters as it relates to him. Indeed, notice how we're meant to think his making mistakes in public, i.e. where he can be seen, is somehow more important than the mistakes themselves. That's the mark of a narcissist: they'll happily do terrible things, even in public, if it reinforces their self-image. If it reinforces that part of themselves that says "This is how a person of the type I am playing would behave."

The error is in thinking Tony Stark has become a real person by the end of the film. He hasn't. He's just found another identity to put on ... quite literally.



This is not to say that the guys who wrote the script were psychiatrists or psychologists, by the way. Contrary to one of Richard Dawkins' more amusing howlers, you don't have to perform physics calculations in order to catch a pop fly in your mitt. It may be no more than that the writers knew narcissists because, being in the LA entertainment scene, they were surrounded by them.

[Bartmanhomer]

Two And A Half Men:

Charlie Harper: True Neutral
Alan Harper: True Neutral
Jake Harper: Chaotic Neutral

[Sloanzilla]

Parks and Rec:

Leslie: LG
Ben: NG
Ann: NG
Andy: CG
Chris: LG with some LN tendencies
Ron: Not sure, N maybe
Donna: Acts N but really NG
Tom: CN
April: CN
Jerry: LN
Jamm: NE
Tammy1: LE
Tammy2: CE
Mark: Who Cares


Dresden Files:
Harry: NG pretends to be CG
Butters: NG or LG
Murphy: NG
Bob: N
Michael: LG (duh)
Molly: CN/CG
Thomas: CG (Extra credit for effort)
Mab: Not good or chaotic, but beyond that...
Marcone: LE
Lara: LE
Morgan: LN
Nick: NE
Outsiders: CE
Mac: N

[Edreyn]

Since I first tried to think about Discoworld characters alignments, I treated Granny Weatherwax as LG. I'll even say she is the manifestation of LG. She does everything to the best of her abilities, for the benefit of innocents, despite being feared and mistreated.

Now, my own share. About Myth series by Asprin.

Skeeve: NG He is kind and compassionate, except some short time where he was cynical and greedy, but he came to older behavior fast and without harm to anyone.
Aahz: This is somewhat harder. I'll go for LE. He thinks only about his and his friends benefit, but within the law and rules.
Gleep: LN Fully devoted to his team.
Massha: I'd say LN too. She needs to follow someone, first the government in her home world, then the team.
Guido and Nunzio: I'd say NG. They try to look dangerous, but they are very kind and caring.
Chumley: CG. Deals outside of rules, but loyal to team and family.
Tananda: LE. Loyal to the team, tries to look nice, but dangerous as hell.
Bunny: LN. Only a person of lawful alignment can be THAT good with finances, business and information gathering. Also very accurate.
Don Bruce: LE, as a criminal mastermind should be.
Markie: Obviously CE. Destruction for the sake of destruction. No matter that it isn't physical.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I still think Granny's more neutral good because I would say that assuming all rules don't apply to you isn't particularly lawful. Also it fits with the themes of balance that surround her character.

[Bartmanhomer]

The Big Bang Theory:

Leonard: True Neutral
Sheldon: True Neutral
Howard: True Neutral
Raj: True Neutral
Penny: True Neutral

[tomandtish]

Dresden Files:
Harry: NG pretends to be CG
Butters: NG or LG
Murphy: NG
Bob: N
Michael: LG (duh)
Molly: CN/CG
Thomas: CG (Extra credit for effort)
Mab: Not good or chaotic, but beyond that...
Marcone: LE
Lara: LE
Morgan: LN
Nick: NE
Outsiders: CE
Mac: N

I'd argue that all the Fae are lawful in some form. There's external rules that they HAVE to follow, so they are lawful. It's not a choice for them, it's a literal inherent quality of being a fae.

And with that in mind Molly is moving into the lawful range.

[Bartmanhomer]

Transformers Generation 1:

Autobots:

Optimus Prime: Lawful Good
Prowl: Lawful Good
Bumblebee: Neutral Good
Ratchet: Neutral Good
Jazz: Lawful Good
Ironhide: Lawful Good
Wheeljack: Lawful Good
Griimock: Chaotic Good
Snarl: Chaotic Good
Slag: Chaotic Good
Sludge: Chaotic Good
Swoop: Chaotic Good

Decepticons:

Megatron: Lawful Evil
Starscream: Lawful Evil
Soundwave: Lawful Evil
Frenzy: Chaotic Evil
Rumble: Chaotic Evil
Lazerbeak: Neutral Evil
Ratbat: Neutral Evil
Ravage: Neutral Evil
Shockwave: Lawful Evil
Thundercracker: Neutral Evil
Skywarp: Neutral Evil
Ramjet: Neutral Evil
Thrust: Neutral Evil
Dirge: Neutral Evil

[Sloanzilla]

I'd argue that all the Fae are lawful in some form. There's external rules that they HAVE to follow, so they are lawful. It's not a choice for them, it's a literal inherent quality of being a fae.

And with that in mind Molly is moving into the lawful range.

I don't totally disagree with you, but I suppose you could say that some sort of universal compulsion might be outside of the alignment spectrum. I've always felt that the toughest alignment break is between certain types of LN- "I have to follow the orders of the universe" and certain types of N "I have to pursue balance in the universe"- they get very close at times. That said, I'm fine with Mab being LN.

[Bartmanhomer]

The Three Stooges:

Larry: Chaotic Neutral
Curly: Chaotic Neutral
Moe: Chaotic Neutral

[Wizard_Lizard]

Most Mac Mac feegle, chaotic Neutral

[tomandtish]

I don't totally disagree with you, but I suppose you could say that some sort of universal compulsion might be outside of the alignment spectrum. I've always felt that the toughest alignment break is between certain types of LN- "I have to follow the orders of the universe" and certain types of N "I have to pursue balance in the universe"- they get very close at times. That said, I'm fine with Mab being LN.

I'd argue they become more like devils, demons, and other similar creatures. it's become an inherent part of their nature, and any change is both extremely rare and likely to have significant consequences.

it's even referenced with regards to Lily...

Spoiler

Show

Meet the new Summer Lady, same as the old Summer Lady.

[Bartmanhomer]

Transformers Generation 1:

Autobots:

Optimus Prime: Lawful Good
Prowl: Lawful Good
Bumblebee: Neutral Good
Ratchet: Neutral Good
Jazz: Lawful Good
Ironhide: Lawful Good
Wheeljack: Lawful Good
Griimock: Chaotic Good
Snarl: Chaotic Good
Slag: Chaotic Good
Sludge: Chaotic Good
Swoop: Chaotic Good

Decepticons:

Megatron: Lawful Evil
Starscream: Lawful Evil
Soundwave: Lawful Evil
Frenzy: Chaotic Evil
Rumble: Chaotic Evil
Lazerbeak: Neutral Evil
Ratbat: Neutral Evil
Ravage: Neutral Evil
Shockwave: Lawful Evil
Thundercracker: Neutral Evil
Skywarp: Neutral Evil
Ramjet: Neutral Evil
Thrust: Neutral Evil
Dirge: Neutral Evil

I'm continuing the Transformer Generation 1 Alignment, Boy I didn't realize there were so many Transformers in Generation 1.

Autobots:

Bluestreak: Neutral Good
Hound: Lawful Good
Mirage: Lawful Good
Sideswipe: Chaotic Good
Sunstreaker: Chaotic Good
Trailbreaker: Neutral Good
Beachcomber: Neutral Good
Cosmos: Neutral Good
Powerglide: Chaotic Good
Seaspray: Neutral Good
Warpath: Neutral Good
Top Spin: Neutral Good
Twin Twist: Neutral Good
Grapple: Neutral Good
Red Alert: Neutral Good
Skids: Neutral Good
Smokescreen: Neutral Good
Tracks: Neutral Good
Roadbuster: Neutral Good
Whirl: Neutral Good
Blaster: Chaotic Good
Jetfire: Lawful Good
Omega Supreme: Chaotic Good
Perceptor: Lawful Good

Decepticons:

Buzzsaw: Lawful Evil
Bonecrusher: Neutral Evil
Hook: Neutral Evil
Mixmaster: Neutral Evil
Scavenger: Neutral Evil
Devastator: Chaotic Evil
Bombshell: Lawful Evil
Kickback: Lawful Evil
Sharpnel: Lawful Evil
Barrage: Neutral Evil
Chop Shop: Neutral Evil
Ransack: Neutral Evil
Venom: Neutral Evil