afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Tzardok]

I may be talking out of my posterior here since I'm not privy to any previous discussion on the matter here, but I seem to remember there being a write-up for the Elemental Plane of Wood in the 3E Manual of the Planes, and presumably also an Elemental Plane of Metal, since that refers to Chinese/Taoist alchemy where the five "elements" (not exactly, but they're often treated as such) are Earth, Water, Fire, Wood and Metal. IIRC the Elemental Plane of Wood is just a place full of trees and other vegetation coming from seemingly nowhere, I'd have to look it up though.

Yes, the Plane of Wood is in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes. Sadly the book doesn't include a Plane of Metal, instead having an Elemental Plane of Cold. As for a description, Elemental Wood mostly resembles a World Tree covered in more trees.

...Wait, how would that even work? Wood makes no sense as an elemental plane, as it is not one of the building blocks of creation. The fact that wood is alive, and gives life, means that it would be definitionally aligned with Positive. There's no such thing as a Negative Wood that's actively devoid of life, since even rotting wood is being broken down by living fungi. Wood would have to live at a nexus of earth, air, water, the quasi-elemental plane of radiance, and positive, if it existed as a plane. The elemental plane of earth is a block of earth with small pockets of other elements in specific areas. The plane of air is air with some debris that fell in over eons. Wood makes no sense being a giant block of wood, since we associate it with leaves and branches and all of those necessitate other elements.

I mean. If the quasiparaelemental plane of wood did exist in that weird juncture, the border would be fruit, wouldn't it? The most energy-dense part of the tree, designed to create new life and empower existing life simultaneously. Possibly extended to all kinds of seeds, like acorns, giant samaras, and so on, but it really makes little sense for such a mix of elements to be designated as an elemental plane. It boggles the mind. Trees and proto-trees were also late to the title of 'first land-borne complex organism' by somewhere between 90 to 180 million years, and so would have had to start as something else when elemental planes don't really change.

The way I imagine the "Elemental" Plane of Wood, it lies in the middle of the Inner Planes, where all other Inner Planes touch. It is the Innermost Plane, where the "base" Elemental and Energy Planes combine to bring life into being. As such, it has border regions. For most other planes I have a rough idea of what it looks like, but I have problems with Positive and would like to gather ideas.

The border regions as I have them currently are:

Between Wood and Air lie the Blooming Reaches. The closer you get to Air, the more branches are replaced by leaves, blossoms, catkins and open spaces full of pollen, until it all dissolves into a pollen cloud that finally clears out and leaves you in Air proper.

Where Wood comes near Earth lies the Mother Soil. Tree becomes Root, threading its way through soft and nourishing soil, becoming finer and smaller until first only soil and finally the harder andd rockier earth of Elemental Earth remain.

At the border of Wood and Water, roots enter water in a giant mangrove known as the Stilting Roots. On the other side, in Water, this border is made of thicker and thicker bushels of seagrass and kelp and called the Swaying Forrest.

To Fire lies the Smoldering. Wood and leaves, tries and plants are seared and smolder into coal, until nothing live-like seems to remain: only a giant block of coal and embers that burns away to give way to Elemental Fire.

Where Wood touches Negative, lies the Plain of Putrefaction. Here the plants die and rot. Everything dissolves and decays from solid wood to stinking mush to smaller pieces of detritus that dissolve into the nothingness of Negative.

What is at the last border? Growth? Fruit? Leaves and Light? How can it best be described?

[afroakuma]

*Is Oerth's day-night cycle primarily caused by the rotation of the planet or by the orbit of Liga

Rotation of the planet. Liga circles too slowly to produce a day-night cycle.

*What actually triggers the teansformation of dromites into reproductive castes? Is it some kind of a psionic effect or more of a phyaical royal jelly type thing?

It is not specified, but I suspect it's a psionic effect funneled through their communal ceremony, rather than something a lone dromite could initiate. It would explain the election, as well - the community needs to settle on members with the ability to endure the metamorphosis physically, mentally, and emotionally.

From reading the previous threads, it seems that ghosts are a Prime Material Plane only phenomenon, since they require a Border Ethereal to be all ghostly.

Generally the case for incorporeal undead, really, but ghosts in particular are an Ethereal phenomenon.

If a soul refuses to move on while on the other planes, what kind of undead do they manifest as? Are there Outer Plane specific undead manifestations, or are they just a ghost without the ability to disappear into the Ethereal?

There are so many different kinds of undead that invariably there's one to cleave to wherever one's soul is. At some point in the future I plan to do a big ol' superlist of all undead and how they're made. That point will not be in the near future.

I also have a question I've been keeping: we already discussed at length the mechanisms by which a soul travels to the Outer Planes after death. How do souls travel from the Positive to their future bodies to be born?

It's not specified; the only reference I've ever seen, since as you know D&D doesn't tend to bother dwelling on the metaphysics of souls any further than it has to, is that preincarnate souls disappear in a flash of light when they leave the Bastion of Broken Souls to be incarnated. It's possible that they move along Astral conduits, presumably highly inviolate ones given the Ban of the Unborn; it's possible they move through the tethers Positive Energy has to other planes as part of their inherent existence and structure. It's possible they move along a conduit unknown to us at all - I would surmise the gods themselves have no sweet clue and definitely don't want to meddle in finding out.

Also, and this question can be ignored if you don't feel like it, assume that the Elemental Plane of Wood has shared border regions with other Inner Planes. What would the border between Wood and Positive look like in your educated opinion?

Back for a day and already you're asking me about pure silliness. If I had to pick something, I'd probably go for Fruit or Flowers.

Oh and of course, congrats Akuma for the 5E MotP! That looks like a really kickass project.

Appreciated!

[Bohandas]

Going off on a tangent from the elemental wood thing for a moment, is it just me or has an inordinate amount of recent (non-D&D) media been using a weird hybrid system where wood either replaces earth or is combined with it

[PhoenixPhyre]

Going off on a tangent from the elemental wood thing for a moment, is it just me or has an inordinate amount of recent (non-D&D) media been using a weird hybrid system where wood either replaces earth or is combined with it

The whole "4 elements == fire, earth, air, water" thing is a fairly limited view into how elements are defined. IIRC, a lot of eastern "alchemical theory" uses wood as one of 5 elements, as probably does others? Which may be a source (especially maybe anime influences?)

FFXIV uses a bunch of elements including
* fire
* earth
* water
* wind (not air)
* ice (separate from water)
* lightning

With Astral (light, passive, order) and Umbral (dark, active, chaos) as "modifiers"--you technically can have umbral or astral anything, but some elements "lean" more toward one than the other.

So yeah, There are tons of different elemental systems out there.

Spoiler: My own setting's elemental theory

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I use 4 "pure" plus the 8 "partial overlap" elements, each of which can be Luminous or Umbral (kinda like FFXIV's, but different) for 12 "elements", each of which corresponds to a month of the main planet's calendar[1].

In order from the start of the year:

Spring--earth
Clay (earth dominant, mixed with water)
Stone (pure earth)
Coal (earth dominant, mixed with fire, although I need a better name)

Summer--fire
Lava (fire dominant, mixed with earth)
Flame (pure fire)
Lightning (fire dominant, mixed with air)

Autumn--air
Smoke (air dominant, mixed with fire)
Wind (pure air)
Cloud (air dominant, mixed with water)

Winter
Ice (water dominant, mixed with air)
Ocean (pure water)
Mud (water dominant, mixed with earth).

Each one has both elemental nature and "aspects/affects"--for example Flame is aspected toward Destruction and rebirth, while Ice is aspected toward grudges and memory (all of water, in fact, has "memory/mind" aspects). Generally they have both "positive" and "negative" aspects.

But then my planes aren't the "entirely made of one thing with maybe bubbles of something else" planes common to D&D. They're all mixed, and mortals live in and through all of them, at least in the easily-accessible portions. As do elementals. And none of my planes are infinite or even unbounded, because i'm not using the Great Wheel at all.

[Edreyn]

To rescue the thread from sinking in forum depth, I'll post a new question.

Cranium rats. They play a part of the story in Torment and are present in some of lore books.

If someone isn't familiar with them, cranium rats are unique in aspect, that the more of them assemble together, the smarter they become. For example 10 rats can cast level 3 spells.

So my questions about them.

1) Any information where they originally came from? Who created them, maybe a deity, or they came from a magical experiment?

2) Where they live in Sigil? Do they ever appear somewhere else?

2) What is the top of how smart they can become? I always imagined that 100 rats can cast level 9 spells and 1000 will have an intelligence of a weak deity and so on. Is it so?

3) What is the estimated number of them? Is their number large enough to be a real threat?

4) If they do have large numbers and can really get a deitific intelligence, why they aren't trying to capture their own territory and become a political power? And in Torment they do have enough "evilness" to wish something of that sort.

Yes, killing rats is easy, fireball can fry 20 in one hit, but with access to high level spells, they can protect themselves from magic or even dominate people who will fight for them.

They might even get allies! A swarm of animals that have godly intelligence will please Athar. Xaositects will enjoy something as moronic as siding with vermin. Fated will be happy to hire rats as thieves and infiltrators. Sensates might find unique experience from interacting with them.

Disgust? In a place where demons and slaads are a casual view?

If cranium rats could, they would gain many benefits. And again, in Torment they do plan vile schemes and have similar wishes.

So... why they don't try this? Just not enough of them? Someone prevents this? Or they can't unite all together and instead fight nest vs nest?

As I imagine this, neither the Lady, nor the Law trio have reasons to go against them.

So... why they never commited anything of value until now?

[Inevitability]

I know that 5e went with cranium rats being a mind flayer experiment, not sure if it's true in older editions as well.

[Edreyn]

In this thread we discuss editions 3.5 and earlier.

[Alea]

If someone isn't familiar with them, cranium rats are unique in aspect, that the more of them assemble together, the smarter they become. For example 10 rats can cast level 3 spells.

Actually, that’s not unique, at least in 3.x: Book of Vile Darkness, pg. 34, makes that a default feature of all hiveminds, which gain +1 Int and +1 Cha for every 20 individuals in the swarm.

[afroakuma]

To rescue the thread from sinking in forum depth, I'll post a new question.

Which I, fool that I am, completely missed.

1) Any information where they originally came from? Who created them, maybe a deity, or they came from a magical experiment?

Strong strong strong hints that they are a creation of Ilsensine.

2) Where they live in Sigil? Do they ever appear somewhere else?

Chiefly the Hive and other more downtrodden areas, though you know rats - they can be anywhere. They are also found on many of the Lower Planes in places.

2) What is the top of how smart they can become? I always imagined that 100 rats can cast level 9 spells and 1000 will have an intelligence of a weak deity and so on. Is it so?

In 2E the cap was 20 Intelligence; in 3.X, a greater swarm could not expect to grow its intellect via sheer numbers and was on average in possession of 19 Int. It's noted that beyond this upper bound, no swarm has ever been recorded that possesses greater numbers or mental capacity. Theories range from "they accrue enough psychic power to collectively transcend the bounds of physical discrete existence as rats" - which, I mean, if I were that smart and also a colony of rats, I'd definitely look into that - to some mysterious population collapse that occurs when a swarm tries to grow beyond a certain limit. Could be that above that line, rather than more intelligence they begin to exhibit divided wills, and so greater swarms invariably fracture; could be that to be fit to purpose, they need to operate in smaller autonomous clumps, and so recognize that a consolidation of too many of their number actually detracts from their broader goals; could be that some kind of jealousy, elitism, or other exclusionary nature develops wherein a large enough swarm is loath to allow additional members despite prospective gains because it feels like it would be in some way a dilution of their existing individual contribution to the group will. Most likely, Ilsensine designed them to short out if they try to gather.

In a practical sense, I think 20-21 Int is likely their upper bound and manifesting as a 10th-level psion (or casting as a 10th-level sorcerer) is the practical limit of their ability to direct the individual wills of each rat to the same purpose. Think of it like superheavy elements - whatever psychic force stabilizes the swarm's intellect to form a single will, beyond a certain region of stability they just cannot maintain the cohesion required and the swarm would splinter or collapse on itself, like the strong force losing to Coloumb repulsion. It's late and I'm tired and I'm discussing particle physics in the context of imaginary magical brain rats. Don't expect accuracy.

3) What is the estimated number of them? Is their number large enough to be a real threat?

No estimated number is available; a greater swarm is around 300 members and multiple such swarms have existed concurrently, so realistically when you broaden scope to include swarms on the Lower Planes and possible incursions across rifts into the Material, there could be millions of them. Which wouldn't matter because see above.

4) If they do have large numbers and can really get a deitific intelligence

They fail on the second count there, see above.

[Fable Wright]

In Book of Vile Darkness, Dark Speech was introduced. A language of evil extremely difficult to pronounce, impossible to learn without being evil, fatal if attempted untrained, and capable of breaking minds to those who do not even understand it, increasing one's power, weakening physical objects, or tasking mindless swarms with malign intelligence and purpose.

Words of Creation are their Book of Exalted Deeds counterpart.

In afrocanon, how does they work? Like. Is it just a set of Truespeak words dealing with literally the best/worst things in existence? If so, why is/isn't there an Ordered Speech and Gibbering Speech? Are the languages a conduit to an entity like Tharizdun or some secluded force of Good, and speaking them invites their presence? Did they just kinda spring out from the Abyss along with the other planes? If so, from whence did they come? It's alleged that evil gods speak Dark Speech, which implies that it's none of the above (my understanding is that gods avoid truespeech), which makes the conspiracy theorist in me consider that it may be an Ordial phenomenon, translating the substance of belief into the real (see also, speaking a language at a sword to permanently weaken it). What's more curious (to me at least) is that Words of Creation involve true names (possibly unrelated to Truenames) for all living creatures, but the Dark Speech involves nameless swarms. Is there significant philosophical principle behind this distinction, or is it just writers being writers?

...Also, come to think of it, is Truespeech aligned with the Ordial? I feel like I should get slapped for asking, but as both are poorly understood, because the (fan?) stories about the one person who tried to attune a planeshifting fork to the Ordial plane IIRC ended up covered in cuts of unknown words and letters and was quite insane, and this sounds about like the normal experience one has with Truenaming, I felt it was worth asking. Also, Truenaming is using the philosophical and abstract (language alone) to manifest in the real (invocations). If anything was associated with Proof, this would be it.

[Tzardok]

Don't forget the Words of Creation Once Spoken, which were involved in the kerfuffle between Vecna and the Lady.

[Edreyn]

Thank you, afroakuma! I was afraid you again disappeared for the long time.

[Tzardok]

Found this old question of mine that got lost during afro working on his book, so I decided to repost it:

If you feel up for it, can you invent some stuff for the minor demon lord Sch'theraqpasstt, the Serpent Reborn, for me? I'm interested in stuff about him and his layer in general, but especially in how the yuan-ti that worship him differ from the usual Merrshaulk worshippers.

[Dalmosh]

What would it take for Bechard the Rotting Husk to reassert control of his usurped Abyssal Layer?

[afroakuma]

I'm on a bit of hiatus at the moment but I'd like to reaffirm that I will be back to this thread when I can be. January has been a lot and I'm trying to make sure I have my bearings before picking this up again.

[Efrate]

The black/dark pools in the abyss, what is known about them really? Were they made by protodemons, is it the mother of monsters after birth or some such, or did the abyss just decide herein like prisons better than pandemonium. It's also weird that I would consider prisons lawful, which seems at odds with the chaotic nature of demons, since freedom is what I consider a hallmark of chaos. That line of thought led me to think more of protodemons than tan'ari.

When you have a moment.

[Yora]

Demons are also evil, which includes doing things to people just to see them suffer.
Trapping someone in a dark hole does not have to be done out of a sense of justice. It can be just out of malice and spite. It's not like there's a legal process with a fair trial to be thrown into a black pit in the Abyss.

[Bohandas]

On that note, how many just random irrelevant people are trapped in the black pits?

EDIT:
Also, why don't Grazzt and Orcus just style themselves as "prince of demons". They're already perpetually at war with Demogorgon anyway and the Queen of Chaos seems to have become largely irrelevant in tue present era.

[Tzardok]

On that note, how many just random irrelevant people are trapped in the black pits?

I'd assume not a lot. If you annoy demon lords enough to be imprisoned, but are difficult enough to kill that you aren't killed outright, you are unlikely to be a random irrelevant.

EDIT:
Also, why don't Grazzt and Orcus just style themselves as "prince of demons". They're already perpetually at war with Demogorgon anyway and the Queen of Chaos seems to have become largely irrelevant in tue present era.

Besides the fact that the thought of "sharing" a title with another probably enrages them even more than the thought that another has the title they want themselves? The title "Prince of Demons" has metaphysical significance. The Prince is the most powerful demon in existence, the ultimo that no other demon can grow past. The Prince also influences the "ecosystem" of the Abyss, and shifts the balance of demonkind to whatever group reflects their core concept best: Demogorgon represents rule by seniority, and so older demons are superior. Orcus represents rule by merit; if he were the Prince, demons that are ex-mortals would be on the upswing. Graz'zt represents inborn right to rule; under him natural born demons would rise to the top. And so on.

Practically, there can't be more than one Prince of Demons in existence.

Edit: Besides, everybody would mock them as pretenders. Yes, even their subordinates.

[Bohandas]

I'd assume not a lot. If you annoy demon lords enough to be imprisoned, but are difficult enough to kill that you aren't killed outright, you are unlikely to be a random irrelevant.

Yes, but as was previously stated there's something to be said for the possibility of demons trapping people in dark pits just because they can

[enderlord99]

Spoiler: Non-serious question punning on the name of a certain Transitory plane

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Who else here likes to Ethereal for breakfast in the morning?

[Fero]

I am planning a pseudo Ravenloft campaign and am trying to come up with a list of a dozen or so non-diety (demigods are fine) evil powers to function as the dread lords. I prefer to use beings with some level of established lore (any version of DnD). Does anyone have any suggestions?

[Tzardok]

Putting aside the question why not simply use Ravenloft and it's established darklords, are you asking for a Top 12 of iconic D&D villains? In that case, I could offer...

• The Lord of Blades, a warforged from Eberron who created a cult around his person and preaches the eradication of fleshy beings
• Manshoon, a legendary wizard from Faerûn who created a network to dominate trade. On his death, twelve clones of him awoke and began a civil war against each other
• Kyuss
• Eclavdra, the first drow in any adventure to ever be named. Lolth's main proxy
• Acererak, the demilich who built the Tomb of Horrors and tried to fuse his mind with the Negative Energy Plane
• Iuz the Old, the demigod who created the Empire of Iuz in the Greyhawk setting
• Eli Tomorast, leader of an organisation of graverobbers and archenemy of Mordenkainen

[Bohandas]

I am planning a pseudo Ravenloft campaign and am trying to come up with a list of a dozen or so non-diety (demigods are fine) evil powers to function as the dread lords. I prefer to use beings with some level of established lore (any version of DnD). Does anyone have any suggestions?

Check out the 2e supplements "Darklords" and "Domains of Dread"

[Inevitability]

Another fun one from Eberron is Mordain the Fleshweaver: he's probably the most powerful transmuter in the setting (among the humanoid races, at least) and has spent hundreds of years populating the forest around his tower with aberrations of his own design. He can either affect mortal souls directly, construct synthetic ones, or create beings that might as well be ensouled, because among the horrors in his forest also stands a normal, quaint little village... populated by people with the bodies and personalities of some of the greatest heroes of eberron's past.


Also, the Lady of Plague, perhaps the most powerful Aberrant Mark user ever, with undefined powers over disease and vermin. I'm imagining a darklord domain that's just a giant ruined city, populated by monstrous mutant vermin and plague-ridden scavengers, where she's tormented by her mark's inability to ever create more than it destroys.

(I've seen a bit by Keith Baker that suggests that, since Siberys dragonmarks cover their bearer's entire body, anything with a power beyond even that should extend beyond the user's body, forming a magical network of energy lines that forms constantly-shifting connections between the bearer and their surroundings - that should make for a memorable visual, not?)

[Bohandas]

Iuz the Old, the demigod who created the Empire of Iuz in the Greyhawk setting

Iuz was already a darklord and escaped. His mother, Iggwilv the Witch Queen, would work better.

[Tzardok]

Iuz was already a darklord and escaped. His mother, Iggwilv the Witch Queen, would work better.

I think you have him confused with Vecna. The only time Iuz was in Ravenloft was when Vecna tricked him into entering in Die, Vecna, Die and ate him afterwards.

[Bohandas]

I think you have him confused with Vecna. The only time Iuz was in Ravenloft was when Vecna tricked him into entering in Die, Vecna, Die and ate him afterwards.

Actually I think I had him confused with Kas. For some reason I thought that all three of them were in the Burning Peaks together, but apparently it was just Kas and Vecna

[Alea]

Another fun one from Eberron is Mordain the Fleshweaver

You say “fun,” I say “most insipid garbage that should never have been published”... on second thought, yes, let’s mist away that idiot. Absolutely no place in Eberron and the setting is worse off for his existence. Half the point of the setting is to reject the overpowered-wizards-in-a-tower trope.

[SirKazum]

Putting aside the question why not simply use Ravenloft and it's established darklords, are you asking for a Top 12 of iconic D&D villains? In that case, I could offer...

• The Lord of Blades, a warforged from Eberron who created a cult around his person and preaches the eradication of fleshy beings
• Manshoon, a legendary wizard from Faerûn who created a network to dominate trade. On his death, twelve clones of him awoke and began a civil war against each other
• Kyuss
• Eclavdra, the first drow in any adventure to ever be named. Lolth's main proxy
• Acererak, the demilich who built the Tomb of Horrors and tried to fuse his mind with the Negative Energy Plane
• Iuz the Old, the demigod who created the Empire of Iuz in the Greyhawk setting
• Eli Tomorast, leader of an organisation of graverobbers and archenemy of Mordenkainen

A warforged Darklord would be a really interesting novelty. Acererak is so iconic that it's a wonder nobody made him a Darklord yet. And in terms of flavor, Eli Tomorast as a grave-robber sounds like a perfect fit...