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2020-10-12, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Monster Mythology disagreeing with you there...
Doresain was a boss in the "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure (Dungeon #70)
It's the ultimate proof he wasn't a deity back then: in the 2E, even the weakest deity in the game could wipe the floor with a party of arbitrary high level and numbers
As you mentioned below, "doesn't ≠ couldn't"
But let me point also: people who worship Lady on the Planes getting their spells just fine...
Just because we unaware of her portfolio, it doesn't mean she don't have one
This part always was inconsistent:
Who the heck worships Elemental deities? Yet they're not just don't starving, but, actually, among the strongest...
Deities such as Gorellik and Ramenos are practically not worshiped at all. While neither of them are "fine", they're still not "starved to death" yet...
Orcus managed to be a deity with just one worshiper (Quah-Nomag)!
Also, if lack of worshipers makes deities weaker, then why Tharizdun is still the strongest god ever? And why Doresain isn't Overgod yet - with his untold billions of worshipers?
Let alone the Mythos deities...
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2020-10-12, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I believe Libris Mortis had the full story of Doresain. Long story short, he ascended after that adventure. He's a demigod now.
There are no people who worship the Lady of Pain on the planes. There are a few flayed corpses lying around from people who tried, though. Her reach is not limited to Sigil.
First—canonically, per Libris Mortis, most of Doresain's worship gets stolen by Yeenoghu, IIRC, and not all ghouls worship him. Also, the prayers of undead are weaker, at least according to what I remember of afrocanon, than those of living souls. What with, you know. Their souls not entirely being in it.
Second—there are entities that are powerful in their own right that become gods. Demon princes ascend to godhood and are no less powerful for low numbers of worshippers. This may be the case of the Elemental deities and was definitely the case with Orcus. Or they might just get a tithe of all worship thanking the gods for the elements. It's unclear. This can cause a god with almost no worship to be stronger than deities with stronger worship, based on preexisting power.
Third—We don't know what Tharizdun is exactly. It could be something beyond a god that can only be understood in terms of deific power. He does not come from the same cloth as other gods, as anyone else should have starved by now for lack of worship. I find it possible that Tharizdun and the Lady of Pain could be the same kind of entity. But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, very different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.
If you want to do a campaign on the Lady being a deity, or... whatever Tharizdun is? Great! But canonically, none of the Factions in Planescape would dare consider her a deity. That's just the canon stance for the time being.
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2020-10-12, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-12, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
At the end of Die, Vecna Die! she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm pretty sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.
Oh, and there was that time when she just straight-up murdered Aoskar despite (like every other deity) Aoskar being unable to enter the Cage.
If she can kill a god on his home plane without warning or notice, odds are she can do the same for mortals trying to worship her outside Sigil.
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2020-10-12, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
If for some odd reason she had to deal with him, the Lady of Pain would win that one.
(winner would fight vs Pandorym )
Sorry I've been away, everyone. Will revisit questions I have missed, hopefully throughout the week. Life has been... well, I can't imagine life hasn't been a special experience for anyone this year, so I'll just thank everyone who's still been around and discussing stuff.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2020-10-12, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Note: events of Die, Vecna Die! weren't accepted by certain part of Planescape fans: for them, it's Planescape version of Elseworlds
But otherwise - OK...
Yes, Aoskar's story is rather interesting...
But I found one more (unexpected) point in favor of my interpretation:
The Lady of Pain is one of the primary figures of the Planescape campaign setting. She is an immensely powerful being who protects the city of Sigil from outside forces. Despite being at least as powerful as any known deity, she accepts no followers and is known to respond to those who try to worship her with extreme violence (although strangely, not people who worship her in secret. There is at least one person in Sigil who secretly is a petitioner of The Lady whom she hasn't destroyed). While most Cagers don't like to invoke her name lightly, the phrase "Her Serenity" is commonly used to refer to the Lady of Pain.
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2020-10-12, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
1d4chan is not any kind of primary source; Hashkar is a petitioner, yes, but the notion that he is a petitioner of the Lady is a rumor, as indicated in Faction War. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to be a petitioner without the anchor point being a deity. The Lady of Pain is not a god of any kind.
Unless there's a divine realm they belong in, they generally don't.
Let's say that an adventurer is killed on a demiplane or elemental plane, connected to the Ethereal but with no Astral conduit. What happens when they die?
Do they get (hypothetically) get sucked up through the Ordial Plane?
Likewise, how do Ghosts come to manifest on the Ethereal, rather than the Astral? They are a being of pure soul; how do they manage to anchor themselves in the the plane of substance rather than belief?
Not tremendously common, and as noted they would be involved in genealogy and history, recordkeeping and scholarship. Less community-oriented than dwarven clerics, more behind-the-scenes. Dwarves have long memories and would archive the truenames of enemies as secret weapons that can be wielded when absolutely necessary, since truenaming is, you know... mechanically abysmal.
In general, gods who share a portfolio cannot share territory; syncretism or redefinition can result, both unfortunate outcomes for a deity. Nobody wants to be the sun god who represents just the dusk and nothing else, but that tends to be how such things end up going - one god gets treated as a more specific, specialized, and lower-scope power than the other, with commensurate impact on worshiper base and, given a large enough timescale, personal nature and abilities.
No.
2. What's Ao and Lady Of Pain alignment?
Oh each plane has lots of unique local wildlife, but not entire exemplar races in the fashion of the main nine. I considered the idea, as Tzardok pointed out, but ultimately didn't care for it.
2) For some planes, I can't really understand the difference between petitioners and mortals residing there. Specifically Bytopia and Acheron. Most of Bytopia residents are gnomes and dwarves, mortal races that love this place and also petitioners have similar forms and even similar life style. Pretty much the same is with Acheron, but with goblinoids instead of gnomes. So, if someone visits one of those planes, how he would distinguish between a mortal resident and a petitioner?
3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.Last edited by afroakuma; 2020-10-13 at 07:38 PM.
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2020-10-14, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for. Same about "in-between" planes inhabitants - I was asking about major known races, not about generic (for planes) creatures.
One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-10-14 at 12:44 AM.
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2020-10-14, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I use braces (also known as "curly brackets") to indicate sarcasm. If there are none present, I probably believe what I am saying; should it turn out to be inaccurate trivia, please tell me rather than trying to play along with an apparent joke I don't know I'm making.
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2020-10-14, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for.
One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?
Outsiders
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2020-10-14, 04:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse. (or possibly even just the side-effects of whatever he did to break the wards on Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread that reordered the multiverse)
And being able to strike down anyone who speaks their name or holds their symbol is a bog standard divine power. Hand of Death doesn't even have a prerequisite.
EDIT:
And what exactly happened with Aoskar? I always he assumed that he was struck down while trying to enter the city.Last edited by Bohandas; 2020-10-14 at 04:43 AM.
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2020-10-14, 04:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
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2020-10-14, 06:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Then, again - she didn't, actually, killed Vecna.
Why?
You see, Lady of Pain always was more plot device than actual character
Thus, her nature was left deliberately vague: there is just no actual story for her
Unfortunately, such vagueness leave limitless field to speculations - their rebuttal is: "Prove she isn't!.."
When I read the theory: "Lady of Pain is six squirrels in a dress with Ring of Levitation", I decided to try my hand there too
Instead inventing something completely outlandish, I decided to attack one of rather well-known - but, nevertheless (AFAIK) not directly stated in a RAW form - presumptions: "Lady of Pain is not a deity"
Oh, she don't likes her followers?
Well, guess who else don't like their followers?
Ao!
Is he not a god now too?
My real point there is:
When we take some great mystery, about which almost nothing is known - every new bit of info is chipping from that mystery.
Let's compare:
"SCP-055 is not a sphere."
"Lady of Pain is not a deity."
Thus, unless some book states in no-nonsense terms "Lady of Pain is not ...", we can speculate unrestrained:
Squirrels?
Daughter of Poseidon?
Sure, why not?!..
"Prove she isn't!.."
Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
Lady of Pain is a part of the Multiverse;
Thus - Pandorym is able to destroy Lady of Pain.
And Dark Powers of Ravenloft too.
(And Ao...)
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2020-10-14, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse, then chose her own corner to watch over the children in the sandbox. She isn't deity, she is above deities.
Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-10-14 at 06:23 AM.
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2020-10-14, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
She has power rivalling that of Ao at least. Again power =/= godhood however.
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2020-10-14, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Another question that has been answered a few times.
Oh, she don't likes her followers?
Well, guess who else don't like their followers?
Ao!
Is he not a god now too?
Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
Lady of Pain is a part of the Multiverse;
Thus - Pandorym is able to destroy Lady of Pain.
And Dark Powers of Ravenloft too.
(And Ao...)
My personal opinion is that the Lady is the incarnation of the concept of the Bigger Fish. She exists to remind us that no matter how powerful and high up on the cosmological scale something or someone is, there will always be something that can stomp it.Last edited by Tzardok; 2020-10-14 at 09:21 AM.
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2020-10-14, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
- Complete immunity to any form of magic (except for Gate spell)
- Divinity nullification
- All which touch it is destroyed
It's all answers without the answer
I read it all, but still don't see why Vecna is still OK, but Aoskar is dead
(Aside from "DVD is non-canon")Last edited by ShurikVch; 2020-10-14 at 10:36 AM.
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2020-10-14, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Yes, thank you for telling us how Elder Evil overstates things (besides the divinity nullification, not even Elder Evil mentions it). As I said, as soon as it tries to pick a fight with one of the real baddies like the Lady, Tharizdun or, god forbid, a sleeping Draeden, it is a smear on the wall. Heck, Pandorym's stats don't even include a planeshifting ability, so it's likely that it just goes up to the crystal sphere and can't get out (if spheres of annihilation can destroy crystal spheres, I'll eat my hat).
It's all answers without the answer
I read it all, but still don't see why Vecna is still OK, but Aoskar is dead
(Aside from "DVD is non-canon")
Originally Posted by Afroakuma
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2020-10-14, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
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2020-10-14, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Excuse me, but overgod is still a god
Divine Ranks:
Originally Posted by SRD
"Pandorym's stats"?
Gee, what stats?
Let me remind you: three biggest Elder Evils in the book - Atropus, Leviathan, and Pandorym - are have no listed stats!
(Because, if they're, actually, appeared - then you're already lost)
If by the "Pandorym's stats" you meant "Mind Shard of Pandorym" - then let me enlighten you: it's not the whole power of Pandorym; actually, it part is so infinitesimal to the "big whole" - Pandorym can have unlimited amount of Shards without becoming weaker in any notable manner
The "divinity nullification", while not stated directly, is strongly implied: Pandorym agreed to kill the gods.
And not just one or two - all the gods without exception.
To try it without having any means to negate their divinity is as stupid as hunting bears while being unable to put a bear down
And, judging by the fact gods were, actually, afraid - threat was completely real
Just as I said: answer without explanation - why killing the strongest "normal" god of the Multiverse (i. e. "strongest, but still no overgod") didn't caused Multiverse to fall apart?
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2020-10-14, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I tend to imagine Zagyg as the biggest fish. He kidnapped the gods and held them in his basement, and perhaps more importantly he's essentially a representation of Gygax' role as the first DM.
IIRC Dragon Magazine made Tharizdun a greater power.
Also, Tharizdun does have worshippers. The cult of Elemental Evil worships him. Or at least the factions that don't worship Iuz, Zuggtmoy, or Lolth do at any rateLast edited by Bohandas; 2020-10-14 at 12:37 PM.
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2020-10-14, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Depends on a number of things - the petitioners of any given divine realm will look an act as determined by that deity, and even petitioners on particular cogs or wheels may take on different forms. Some may eventually join with the energy pool of the modrons; others may become coggles or moignos and take their place in the regulation of the plane itself.
Vecna damaged the structure of the multiverse by being in Sigil for as long as he was, but he didn't ultimately get to reorder it.
And what exactly happened with Aoskar? I always he assumed that he was struck down while trying to enter the city.
You've demonstrated clear disinterest in counterpoints, so this will be the end of my interaction with you on the topic. The answer is understood; if you don't actually want said answer, then I can't help you.
Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
Given the tenor of your recent posts, I will also no longer be addressing your questions. Good day to you.
She is not that.
Heh, definitely not. Zagyg managed to catch a few gods in his Godtrap, but there are many, many things in the multiverse that outclass him. He's clever, not powerful.
IIRC Dragon Magazine made Tharizdun a greater power.
Also, Tharizdun does have worshippers. The cult of Elemental Evil worships him. Or at least the factions that don't worship Iuz, Zuggtmoy, or Lolth do at any rateLast edited by afroakuma; 2020-10-14 at 01:56 PM.
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2020-10-14, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
And Material Plane is the linchpin: remove it - and Multiverse will fall apart!
Also, don't forget: death of deities would cause implosions of their respective realms, and aspects of reality they were responsible for would go haywire, adding to the destruction...
What "farcical ease"?
If you about how Pandorym was contained in the first place - we have absolutely no idea how it's happened in the first place. For all we know, Pandorym did all the "heavy lifting", and people who employed it just abused its trust...
But if you're talking about the adventure itself - then "farcical ease" consist in... just not allowing it to get free in the first place, and leave it in the existing containment? Really?!
And you - didn't?
Pot.
Kettle.
I don't expecting your answer this time, but just couldn't pass such dubious reasoning without reply. Good night.
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2020-10-14, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Sounds like Godsmen propaganda tbh. The Outlands is the lynchpin, and Sigil a representative of that. There's no indication that Pandorym is interested in anything beyond a single crystal sphere and/or the gods therein, much less the entire material plane. There's no indication that if you kill the gods anything bad happens to the multiverse as a whole, or that removing the prime material plane won't cause a new one to be made from the intersection of the Astral and Ethereal.
In Grand History of the Realms, a 4e book, the timeline of Faerun include Pandorym awake and chewing up the countryside for four years (1370-1374) without... really killing any gods or destroying the multiverse as it stands? And then he's put back to sleep by a couple of high level adventurers.
From a deific perspective, that's... really not all that impressive?
I mean, by posing the question in this particular thread, you tacitly acknowledge that you are asking for afroakuma's perspective and that his answers are definitive. This is afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread of 8 years running.
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2020-10-14, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
No point dwelling on it. Let's move on. I didn't come back for this
Floor's open for questions, as usual.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2020-10-14, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Well, one thing did pop up recently.
In Dark Sun, there's the Elemental Plane of Silt where there should normally be the Plane of Ooze, but transformations like Transmute Rock to Mud and Mud to Rock still work in a manner that implies that water and earth are still linked. Do you have any speculation about the Plane of Silt might have come about? Or plot ideas for a GM that may deal with a high-level campaign centered around returning the Plane of Silt to the Plane of Ooze?
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2020-10-14, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-14, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2020-10-14, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Is Sigil on the interior surface of the torus or the exterior surface? And is gravity towards the surface of the torus or towards the surface of the Outlands? And is the torus fully enclosed or is it a half-torus?
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2020-10-14, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I use braces (also known as "curly brackets") to indicate sarcasm. If there are none present, I probably believe what I am saying; should it turn out to be inaccurate trivia, please tell me rather than trying to play along with an apparent joke I don't know I'm making.