(D20M/D&D 3.5) Modern Military vs D&D Play Thread, Match 1.

[Metastachydium]

Can you suggest one that would be appropriate? As up-to-date as possible?

US forces currently use M249 and M240, the Bundeswehr has H&K MG4 and H&K MG5 guns, and the French stick to their Belgian stuff, FN Minimi and FN MAG. Then we have the Russian RPK 74M and PKP Pecheneg. Only the H&Ks and the Pecheneg are 21st century designs, though.

Also, I’m very glad you posted, because I've been meaning to PM you about your interest in a monotypic genus of central Asian wildflowers.

Yeah, it was supposed to be the much less exotic Mesembryanthemum, but that one was a bit too long for the site, so I picked something shorter. I'm happy with it, nevertheless: I happen to like labiates quite a lot (I have a friendly little coleus at home), and people shorten it to Meta which sounds almost as cool as the long version.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Metastachydium
US forces currently use M249 and M240….

Looking at the M249, I’m thinking the damage could be around 5d10. Apparently it can fire 100 rounds per minute, which is 10 per game round. Assuming the weapon’s kick prevents every bullet from landing, 5d10 seems like a reasonable compromise.

Range of approximately 2300 feet, with a maximum range out to nearly 12,000 feet (!), no idea what the range increment should be. It’s mentioned as being cumbersome, so I’d say it needs to be fired as a full-round action using the bipod. Does that sound about right?

[Metastachydium]

Looking at the M249, I’m thinking the damage could be around 5d10. Apparently it can fire 100 rounds per minute, which is 10 per game round. Assuming the weapon’s kick prevents every bullet from landing, 5d10 seems like a reasonable compromise.

Range of approximately 2300 feet, with a maximum range out to nearly 12,000 feet (!), no idea what the range increment should be.

If the M4 gets 200 ft., I'd give this an increment of 300.

It’s mentioned as being cumbersome, so I’d say it needs to be fired as a full-round action using the bipod. Does that sound about right?

Yup. One either moves or uses it, but doing both in the same round does not sound even remotely reasonable.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Metastachydium
One either moves or uses it, but doing both in the same round does not sound even remotely reasonable.

Okay, thanks.

How about setup? Is it reasonable to require a full-round action to set it in position, extend the bipod, and do whatever else needs to be done before firing?

[Metastachydium]

How about setup? Is it reasonable to require a full-round action to set it in position, extend the bipod, and do whatever else needs to be done before firing?

I think I'd go with another yes. Setting it up easily takes 6 seconds.

[Palanan]

Excellent, thanks.

So, for the M249 SAW, it looks like we have a range increment of 300’, damage 5d10, full-round action to fire, and a full-round action to set up before firing.

From what I can gather, it looks like 600 rounds is the limit before it needs to be reloaded. Firing 100 rounds per minute means 6 minutes of constant firing before a reload, which should cover most encounters. But if it does need a reload, how long should that take?

Also, can the weapon sustain several minutes of constant firing without jamming? Maybe a 5% cumulative chance of a jam for each minute of firing?

[Metastachydium]

From what I can gather, it looks like 600 rounds is the limit before it needs to be reloaded.

I think it's more like 200.

if it does need a reload, how long should that take?

Logically, it would probably be another full-round action. That being said, I'm not absolutely certain that if everything about operating the gun is a full-round action, using it does not become more bother than it's worth.

Maybe a 5% cumulative chance of a jam for each minute of firing?

Agreed, as long as replacing the barrel with a fresh one (as a full-round action) is an option.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks. I'm completely unfamiliar with this weapon, so I'm just guessing based on stray factoids I can find. I've seen both 200- and 600-round limits quoted, as well as an option for M16 magazines (which is apparently a last resort and rarely used).

So, very glad for the input. A 200-round drum seems reasonable, since that's still 2 minutes of sustained fire.

[Tyndmyr]

Okay, would you say 4d10 for the sniper rifle, with a full-round action to aim and fire? And how many shots before you need to reload?

So, sniper rifles are...strange, in that they don't fully translate well to the D&D esque series of attacks. Full round action is, while not ideal, probably decent from a gameplay perspective. They get more accurate, not more lethal. A .30 round fired by a sniper isn't going to make a deeper hole that one fired from a machine gun, it's just more accurate.

This is currently handled by feats in D20M that offer accuracy in return for the shot, though they are fairly unimpressive, and could stand to have fatter numbers.

10 round magazine is pretty common in sniper rifles, though there's wide variation depending on models. Honestly, in a five on five skirmish, reloading is unlikely to make a significant impact save for single round weapons like rocket/grenade launchers. Swapping mags on a bolt action rifle isn't usually any different from anything else, so it probably doesn't need anything special.

According to what I found here, a skilled grenadier can fire about 6 shots per minute, which is one shot every ten seconds. Standard D&D round is six seconds, so it seems closer to the real-world time to require two rounds, one for loading and one for firing.

That seems a shade slow, but but it's probably close enough to justify if it's

One interesting option is the so-called smart grenade, designed to explode immediately after it passes over the enemy's cover.

There's a lot of wild tech that's been experimentally issued, but that kind of stuff is pretty uncommon. That kind of stuff is generally not available. Supply chains change exceedingly slowly, with most platforms lasting for many decades.

I don’t have any sense for how mortars operate. Are they usually carried at the squad level?

Depends on what sort of squad and what the role is. For instance, in WW2, the Japanese army used light mortars on a squad level, which worked really well in many of the circumstances where they fought. It's not universal, though.

*most* people just have a rifle, maybe a pistol as a sidearm, with perhaps a couple of specialists. Machine gunner is probably the most common specialist, but marksmen, flamethrowers, explosive folks, all possible. I also wouldn't rule out things like a humvee, which could totally be a reasonable option for a squad deployment, depending on what they're doing. Five is honestly a fairly light patrol to send entirely solo into another world, so that's sort of a conceit for testing.

Mortars are light, localized artillery support. If carried individually like this, ammunition would be limited, and usually a second person helps out as a result. It doesn't have the range of bigger artillery, but it has a high arc, and the boom's a bit bigger than a grenade. You generally wouldn't run both a grenadier and a mortar team, because the roles are too similar.

US forces currently use M249 and M240, the Bundeswehr has H&K MG4 and H&K MG5 guns, and the French stick to their Belgian stuff, FN Minimi and FN MAG. Then we have the Russian RPK 74M and PKP Pecheneg. Only the H&Ks and the Pecheneg are 21st century designs, though.

All of those seem like valid options, depending on the force employed. The autofire rules mostly cover this, but probably could use a wee bit of upgrading. If memory serves, there's a static DC to dodge, which scales poorly, and seems like dex bonus or something should be added to this. Otherwise, it'll eventually be mostly irrelevant at higher levels.

Looking at the M249, I’m thinking the damage could be around 5d10. Apparently it can fire 100 rounds per minute, which is 10 per game round. Assuming the weapon’s kick prevents every bullet from landing, 5d10 seems like a reasonable compromise.

Range of approximately 2300 feet, with a maximum range out to nearly 12,000 feet (!), no idea what the range increment should be. It’s mentioned as being cumbersome, so I’d say it needs to be fired as a full-round action using the bipod. Does that sound about right?

Realistically, a hit from that ought to do as much damage as a hit from a 5.56 carbine. It's the same caliber being fired from a pretty similarly length barrel. The difference is solely rate of fire.

They can absolutely be fired without utilizing the bipod, though they are a good deal less accurate when not set up. To some extent, D20M stances are meant to help with this, with prone providing a significant boost to accuracy with ranged weapons. This is...a decent approximation. Not perfect, but feh. Only being able to take five foot move actions while firing seems reasonable, though. Running and gunning is...not really reasonable.

It will take more weight, especially with the ammo, though I would not expect that to matter much for a 5v5. Reloading taking a full round seems reasonable, and I could even accept two as an abstraction, because sometimes you need to change barrel, etc. That said, deeply unlikely to matter for this test.

As a note, you can totally still fire single rounds from slow firing machine guns, and they will be pretty decently accurate. The fire modes of D20M are kind of reasonable in principle as a result. The magazines being interoperable works both ways. You can totally slap a drum on a regular rifle too(and I do sometimes run a hundred round drum on my AR). There's pros and cons, but honestly, probably too far into the weeds for a skirmish.

While a small chance of jamming is realistic, it is probably a bother from a gameplay perspective. Slight tension there between fast resolution and accuracy, since it adds another rolling step.