[3.5] Banning Dwarves and Elves as player races?

[Pika...]

I know, a bit odd of a question but please bare with my description of my homebrewed setting.


Key points I have been trying to make clear as a DM:
1. My world is more Tolkenish.

2. I play more realistically.

3. I felt it was silly that Humans suddenly take over due to "blafh blah blah". In truth it is just because, well we are Human IRL and therefore feel Humans would naturally ascend to dominance. I feel the Elves and Dwarves, having ages ahead of them and centuries to hone their skills should easily whip them. In addition, the even faster breeding Savage Races would be devastating to them, and much more competition than what standard D&D makes them out to be.

4. I killed off Humanity in my games (a handful still exist here and there, but it seems like a doomed race).

5. To reflect the fact that Dwarves and Elves spend centuries to ages (Elves are ageless in my setting) I have it as:
a) No Dwarf military soldier or combatant NPC is below 3rd level. The standard Solider is 5th level.
b) The standard Elf Solider is 3rd level. High Elf standard military soldiers are on par with Dwarves at standard level 5.

6. Fluff-Wise I have declared it that it is not so much that Elves and Dwarves age slower, but that by their cultures' standards they are young. So a 20 year old Elf may look like a kid, but it is just as knowledgeable as a level 20 Human.


Now for the issue:
I keep having a hard time explaining away why Dwarf and Elf PCs are coming into the game a level 1, and at young ages.

I do not want my world to be the standard "we all just really play humans, and pick different races for the stats".

Also, I do not want to simply handwave it saying "PCs are exceptional!".

Right now I am thinking that perhaps keeping them from being PCs would allow them to be the "mythical" Long-Lived Races who dwell within the mountains and beneath our feet, or guard the ancient forest and other natural areas from the Savage Races.



Any ideas or advice please? It would be much appreciated!

[Fluffles]

Let them go through standard training then. Have their characters start out as new recruits, that way you solve all the problems.

And the reason Humans all ways end up in control is because we breed like rabbits, and win battles through pure numbers.

[ericgrau]

So what's the problem? An all human group can work fine even with a variety of classes. After the characters gain a couple levels you could give new characters the option to be an elf or dwarf.

[Telonius]

5. To reflect the fact that Dwarves and Elves spend centuries to ages (Elves are ageless in my setting) I have it as:
a) No Dwarf military soldier or combatant NPC is below 3rd level. The standard Solider is 5th level.
b) The standard Elf Solider is 3rd level. High Elf standard military soldiers are on par with Dwarves at standard level 5.

Sounds like you want Dwarves and Elves to have a few racial hit dice.

[SimperingToad]

There's really no reason to assume the longer-lived races are even higher level on average (removing non-combatants from that figure). Humans in Middle-Earth are the chief go-getters. They are the ones to go out and get stuff done. Elves and dwarves tend to be on the defensive, and usually only get involved when something comes after them. Things like Thorin and company going to deal with Smaug appear to be quite rare events. How many centuries was Sauron 'The Necromancer' at Dol Guldur before Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and others drove him out?

The ones who have survived a couple of thousand years or more, such as Elrond or Galadriel may certainly surpass most, if not all humans. But elves and dwarves do die in battle, and even the more experienced may fall prey to death.

Also, there is no reason to ban 1st, 2nd level etc. dwarves and elves. They need to start somewhere, don't they? Being as knowledgeable as a 20 year old human does not imply practical experience as a fighter or mage or whatever. It could be they only learn crafts and languages and such early on.

As far as the 'humans in funny looking suits' goes. We're human. We always will play non-humans that way. Some people are more creative at it than others, but it's something we can't escape. None of us was a dwarf or elf, so we don't know any different.

[Pika...]

Let them go through standard training then. Have their characters start out as new recruits, that way you solve all the problems.

Well, that would take a few centuries before they are even allowed as basic level soldiers.

And the reason Humans all ways end up in control is because we breed like rabbits, and win battles through pure numbers.

Well, I always saw it that Humans in D&D supposedly combined some fo the qualities of both the Long-Lived Races and the Savage Races. Enough of the "long-term view" of the Long-Lived Races to plan enough ahead, but the quick breeding and savagery of the Savage Races.

Hence why I made them out to be a "plague" to the other races, and why they burnt themselves out. They managed to make the Elves retreat deeper and deeper into their barely protected forests, they managed to take numerous of the ancient Dwarven holdings, and even managed to take the planes from the Savage Races. However, eventually when they had the world at a stalemate they turned on themselves.

So what's the problem? An all human group can work fine even with a variety of classes. After the characters gain a couple levels you could give new characters the option to be an elf or dwarf.

So basically restrict the Dwarves and Elves to 3rdish level?

However with humans and Half-Orcs gone that can limit a bit. Then again I do highly encourage people to play whatever they want (I love to, but rarely get a DM willing, so I like to give players an option). Currently my group has a Squirrel, a Jungle Halfling, a Tibbet, a Half-Elf, and a rare Human who commands a Monodrone and talks to a puppet, so I guess it is not undoable?

[Pika...]

Sounds like you want Dwarves and Elves to have a few racial hit dice.

I just had a minimum of Class HD. For them PC ones, while the "savage races" such as Orcs, Gnolls, etc are usually Lv.1 Warriors with the exceptions of leaders and rare individuals (anyone remember Miss. B-Word Queen? ).


Do you feel Racial HD would be a good idea hear?!

[Worira]

Why are you starting at first level? Why not just have the players start at 3rd?

[AtwasAwamps]

Currently my group has a Squirrel, a Jungle Halfling, a Tibbet, a Half-Elf, and a rare Human who commands a Monodrone and talks to a puppet, so I guess it is not undoable?

1. My world is more Tolkenish.

2. I play more realistically.

...

::head asplodes::

[Optimystik]

I felt it was silly that Humans suddenly take over due to "blafh blah blah". In truth it is just because, well we are Human IRL and therefore feel Humans would naturally ascend to dominance. I feel the Elves and Dwarves, having ages ahead of them and centuries to hone their skills should easily whip them. In addition, the even faster breeding Savage Races would be devastating to them, and much more competition than what standard D&D makes them out to be.

I know this is your campaign world's rationale, but I have to disagree with your logic here. Fantasy humans don't dominate most settings simply because of writer favoritism; rather, they actually do have the attributes that best lend themselves to fast and controlled expansion.

From Races of Destiny:

Humans aren’t boring. No other race has the same combination of ambition, aggressiveness, and energy. Those attributes have enabled humanity to spread far and wide, and in most campaign worlds, human nations cover most of the map. Humans are interesting because they’re so active. While dwarves are mining the depths of the earth and elves are contemplating ancient mysteries, humans are building empires, settling new lands, and fighting titanic wars with one another.

Humanity's greatest strength, even in science fiction, is adaptability. No sooner are we defeated, than we learn why and what to do about it. The longer-lived races are slow to respond to external pressures, while the quicker-lived savage species lack humanity's drive.

Their second strength is diversity. Two dwarven settlements will have almost identical culture even if they are across the glove. Two human cities, on the other hand, will have vastly different norms and attitudes even a few miles away from each other.

Combine those two with their procreation - of the "advanced" races, Humans are by far the most numerous - and it's easy to see why humans end up covering most planes they live on.

Not telling you how to run your campaign, just providing food for thought. If you want elves and dwarves to run the show, don't let me stop you

[Pika...]

...

::head asplodes::

Hey!

Just because I spend quite a bit of time making a beuatifulish world, and try to fill it with a High Fantasy theme does not mean I can control my players...


Let's just say now as a DM/Overdiety I better understand the whole "God hates suffering, but allows free will" argument...

[Jergmo]

Humans survive because they're the jack of all trades, while other races are more specialized. Also, as well as taking longer to develop, elves and dwarves are also less fertile. If I remember correctly, humans are about...5 times as fertile as elves, likely more, and elven pregnancies last for two years.

And, yes, as well as being quick learners in various fields, we're always finding exciting new ways to have sex. Consider the time period - back then, it wasn't entirely uncommon for families to have like eight children. And we're talking about a fantasy setting, where humans learn arcane and divine magic. In my campaign, humans did almost face extinction and widespread enslavement. A small continent is currently in an iron grip by frost giant tribes, which are in control of the sea routes and have cut off the different parts of the continent from each other barring magical travel, which is less common and requires teleportation circles to be established (there are spellcasters running around, but it's more of a low-magic setting).

Dragons were causing havoc, but as well as being at war with the humans, dwarves, and elves (which are Fey, and are styled more like their mythological origins varying by region), they had competition with the giants. The giants were dealt a blow, dragons are now very rare, and humans keep on breeding. The various groups of humans are for the most part separated and it's difficult to make contact safely, but they're not going to lay down and die and are trying to expand. Dwarves and elves are more individually powerful than a human, but if they were to fight humans, they would suddenly find themselves greatly outnumbered and they'd end up being starved out of hiding.

[JonestheSpy]

I think your intital premise is just fine, and as DM you're free to set whatever limitations you wish.

Myself, I tend to adopt the same attitude in high-fantasy settings - elves (and to a lesser extent other long-lived races) are badass specifically because they are just as smart as humans if not smarter and have lots and lots of time to learn and practice things, but don't dominate beause of their low birth rate.

I guess the real question is that if there are almost no humans and elves and dwarves are off limits, what races do you imagine the PC's playing? And if you want to figure out a reason for 1st level elves and dwarves wandering around, I suggest going the orphan route, or figure out some other reason they were raised away from their normal culture.

[Jergmo]

I think your intital premise is just fine, and as DM you're free to set whatever limitations you wish.

Myself, I tend to adopt the same attitude in high-fantasy settings - elves (and to a lesser extent other long-lived races) are badass specifically because they are just as smart as humans if not smarter and have lots and lots of time to learn and practice things, but don't dominate beause of their low birth rate.

I guess the real question is that if there are almost no humans and elves and dwarves are off limits, what races do you imagine the PC's playing? And if you want to figure out a reason for 1st level elves and dwarves wandering around, I suggest going the orphan route, or figure out some other reason they were raised away from their normal culture.

With the whole 1st level dwarves and elves thing, I went with the racial hit die approach - dwarves and elves start with two Fey hit dice, which makes them not particularly stronger than a human physically, but they have good saves and a lot of skill points.

[Ormagoden]

As suggested earlier racial hit dice is the way to go with this.

Having the additional dice can represent "world experience" that the longer lived races gain by virtue of having a long life span.

For instance

Dwarf and elf would become a +1 or +2 LA race with Racial hit dice, weapon proficiencies, and a skill list. They also can get a feat...something fluff friendly for each.

That sounds like a great idea :D

[AtwasAwamps]

Well, as long as your players are having fun…I have to admit that I dislike your conceptualization of human strengths and weaknesses and the way you’ve set it up, but that is possibly my own bias. But I do understand your frustration with “Humans by another name”. I know someone who plays every single one of his characters the same way…and he has played character concepts ranging from a minotaur berserker to an 11-year-old necromancer girl who likes fairies. Yes. The same way.

In case you’re wondering, he played the minotaur like the necromancer, rather than vice versa. I have a weird group of friends. It does mean you can reliably get his character in trouble with pink frosted cupcakes, though.

The simplest and most basic solution is racial hit dice. Your average elven soldier is not your average elven fighter. An adventurer has an entirely different set of experiences from a career soldier and theoretically, if he should survive, is more potent as fighter/ranger/etc., though he may lack the raw soldierliness of a soldier.

Also…with no offense intended…how STUPID are elves and dwarves that it takes a century to train them as soldiers? Quite frankly, that alone, logically, would make them a nonviable race and culture…humans and savage races could replace their fighting forces far faster than elves and dwarves and the long-lived races would be completely wiped out if it took centuries to replenish their fighting forces.

[Pika...]

I know this is your campaign world's rationale, but I have to disagree with your logic here. Fantasy humans don't dominate most settings simply because of writer favoritism; rather, they actually do have the attributes that best lend themselves to fast and controlled expansion.

From Races of Destiny:



Humanity's greatest strength, even in science fiction, is adaptability. No sooner are we defeated, than we learn why and what to do about it. The longer-lived races are slow to respond to external pressures, while the quicker-lived savage species lack humanity's drive.

Their second strength is diversity. Two dwarven settlements will have almost identical culture even if they are across the glove. Two human cities, on the other hand, will have vastly different norms and attitudes even a few miles away from each other.

Combine those two with their procreation - of the "advanced" races, Humans are by far the most numerous - and it's easy to see why humans end up covering most planes they live on.

Not telling you how to run your campaign, just providing food for thought. If you want elves and dwarves to run the show, don't let me stop you

Well, funny enough I guess I kinda worked that in already. I am not sure what way I really directed it then. Did I make the Long-Lived Races better, or were Humans better?

Humans survive because they're the jack of all trades, while other races are more specialized. Also, as well as taking longer to develop, elves and dwarves are also less fertile. If I remember correctly, humans are about...5 times as fertile as elves, likely more, and elven pregnancies last for two years.

And, yes, as well as being quick learners in various fields, we're always finding exciting new ways to have sex. Consider the time period - back then, it wasn't entirely uncommon for families to have like eight children. And we're talking about a fantasy setting, where humans learn arcane and divine magic. In my campaign, humans did almost face extinction and widespread enslavement. A small continent is currently in an iron grip by frost giant tribes, which are in control of the sea routes and have cut off the different parts of the continent from each other barring magical travel, which is less common and requires teleportation circles to be established (there are spellcasters running around, but it's more of a low-magic setting).

Dragons were causing havoc, but as well as being at war with the humans, dwarves, and elves (which are Fey, and are styled more like their mythological origins varying by region), they had competition with the giants. The giants were dealt a blow, dragons are now very rare, and humans keep on breeding. The various groups of humans are for the most part separated and it's difficult to make contact safely, but they're not going to lay down and die and are trying to expand. Dwarves and elves are more individually powerful than a human, but if they were to fight humans, they would suddenly find themselves greatly outnumbered and they'd end up being starved out of hiding.

You have a pretty interesting and well thought out setting. Much better than mine so far.

I think your intital premise is just fine, and as DM you're free to set whatever limitations you wish.

Myself, I tend to adopt the same attitude in high-fantasy settings - elves (and to a lesser extent other long-lived races) are badass specifically because they are just as smart as humans if not smarter and have lots and lots of time to learn and practice things, but don't dominate beause of their low birth rate.

I guess the real question is that if there are almost no humans and elves and dwarves are off limits, what races do you imagine the PC's playing? And if you want to figure out a reason for 1st level elves and dwarves wandering around, I suggest going the orphan route, or figure out some other reason they were raised away from their normal culture.

Well, since I find so few DMs willing to let me play unusual races (I am to races what most are to classes) I have a "play whatever you would like, minus Humans and Half-Orcs, and no, no Tarrasque..." policy. I love the Racial Progression rules, I allow buying off LAs, and I use the Fearun rules for playing LA+1-3 races at Lv.1.

[Pika...]

Also…with no offense intended…how STUPID are elves and dwarves that it takes a century to train them as soldiers? Quite frankly, that alone, logically, would make them a nonviable race and culture…humans and savage races could replace their fighting forces far faster than elves and dwarves and the long-lived races would be completely wiped out if it took centuries to replenish their fighting forces.

Well, I had thought it was not so much them needing that long, but for their armys' standards anything below said levels is unacceptable. From what I understand a sixth level PC is the equivalent of a super hero in D&D, so the basic standard soldiers in Dwarven and High Elf militaries are just shy of that.



As a advised here I am using the Trojan War large-scale battle rules, and so far it is calculating out to the following scenario:

Unit of 500 lv.1 Orcs Warriors with leather and flint weapons (-2 to attack and damage if I remember correct) charges Elven forest boarders.

Unit of fifty mithral full-plate armored lv.5 High Elf fighters with metal weapons march out to confront them.

Elves wipe them out.

[jiriku]

Originally Posted by Pika...
Currently my group has a Squirrel, a Jungle Halfling, a Tibbet, a Half-Elf, and a rare Human who commands a Monodrone and talks to a puppet, so I guess it is not undoable?

Originally Posted by Pika...
1. My world is more Tolkenish.
2. I play more realistically.
...
::head asplodes::

Hey!

Just because I spend quite a bit of time making a beuatifulish world, and try to fill it with a High Fantasy theme does not mean I can control my players...

In defense of AtWasAwamps, even Jimi Hendrix would think your campaigns are a wild trip, Pika. :P When I was reading that line about your campaigns being more realistic, I burst out laughing IRL.

But, to be like, more on-topic and stuff, maybe you could just remove dwarves and elves and replace them with...more squirrels or something. Squirrel pirates. Force-using squirrel pirates. Who rock out. Think about it.

Or maybe just start your campaign at level 5. Most hardcore D&D players have done the low levels to death, but many rarely if ever get the chance to run games at higher levels (13+).

[Jergmo]

Unit of 500 lv.1 Orcs Warriors with leather and flint weapons (-2 to attack and damage if I remember correct) charges Elven forest boarders.

Unit of fifty mithral full-plate armored lv.5 High Elf fighters with metal weapons march out to confront them.

Elves wipe them out.

*Winces* Well, as you mentioned earlier, level 6 folks are supposed to be like superheroes.

I'd stat someone like Achilles or Odysseus as level 7. Hercules? Maybe level 10. As was explained in an article by some of the makers of D&D...the whole SO AND SO IS LEVEL 20!! is nonsense.

1st level is a regular guy. 2nd-3rd is skilled. 4th level is a professional, like a brain surgeon or something, and 5th level is where you go into the brilliant minds that came once per generation, like Einstein, or that guy who invented the folded metal sword-smithing technique. And only like 5% of the population is worthy of several levels in PC classes.

If I were you, I'd personally maybe make them level 3 warriors if they were soldiers.

Also, I would think the orcs would at least have copper/bronze.

Edit: Or they would overrun the elves in groups using grapple and bludgeon them to death with big rocks, or start a forest fire to flush them (as well as a fair amount of game) out. Even if the elves are using bows, that's a lot of orcs, the hits aren't guaranteed to kill them, and they're going to run out eventually.

[Pika...]

In defense of AtWasAwamps, even Jimi Hendrix would think your campaigns are a wild trip, Pika. :P When I was reading that line about your campaigns being more realistic, I burst out laughing IRL.

But, to be like, more on-topic and stuff, maybe you could just remove dwarves and elves and replace them with...more squirrels or something. Squirrel pirates. Force-using squirrel pirates. Who rock out. Think about it.

Or maybe just start your campaign at level 5. Most hardcore D&D players have done the low levels to death, but many rarely if ever get the chance to run games at higher levels (13+).

Why thank you. I will take that as a compliment.


And I guess I did not really describe what I meant by "realistic".

I meant more on the lines of:

1. Players decide to travel through the "Frozen North" in December without as much as a winter blanker.
2. Out of no where DM rolls dice behind DM screen.
3. DM says "Take x points of subdual damage".


Or

1. PCs leave ENTIRE wagon full of 1000s of gp worth of stuff they got charged hired to transport mere moments ago out in the open outside the city gates unguarded and went to bed at a inn.
2. When they return DM says "What wagon?".


Also, I have a small sign which says Rule 0 next to my DM screen to make clear I sometimes just toss out mechanics if I feel they do not make logical sense in certain situations.

[Lycanthromancer]

You might consider removing half-elves entirely, use the PHB stock-standard elves (and all of their billions of subraces) as half-elves, and make some exceedingly powerful (ie, epic) fey race for actual elves. However, instead of using favored class: wizard, make them favored class: druid.

Dwarves...Well, refluff dwarves to be some anthropomorphic badgers or something, have the in-world dwarves be a legendary race of arctic-dwelling toymakers, and have done.

[AtwasAwamps]

::blink:: Huh. Well, like I said, it’s your game and your world and it’s not my place to criticize it, especially as I’m new at building worlds in relation to the DnD world. I feel like there are some issues with your depiction of the various races, but if your players don’t mind, then it’s not my place to care.

As far as dealing with the dwarf/elf thing, I’m afraid that you really are limited. If you’re serious about how dwarves and elves are in this universe, you CAN’T have level one adventuring dwarves AND give your players the degree of freedom you seem to want to. Give elves and dwarves some racial hit die or start at level three at least. Something to think about…why would these uberdwarves and elves travel with a wimpy human? I’d think a human would have to be pretty impressive for these greater races to deign to work with them.

[Foryn Gilnith]

As was explained in an article by some of the makers of D&D...the whole SO AND SO IS LEVEL 20!! is nonsense.

By the makers, I'm not sure; but based on your examples you read Justin Alexander's article about "Calibrating your expectations".

You could just ban dwarves and elves as PC races, as your title says. I wouldn't complain, and I think the type of people your quirky campaigns attract wouldn't bitch at you.

[Optimystik]

You might consider removing half-elves entirely, use the PHB stock-standard elves (and all of their billions of subraces) as half-elves, and make some exceedingly powerful (ie, epic) fey race for actual elves. However, instead of using favored class: wizard, make them favored class: druid.

Dwarves...Well, refluff dwarves to be some anthropomorphic badgers or something, have the in-world dwarves be a legendary race of arctic-dwelling toymakers, and have done.

I'm in favor of this. Call MM Elves "Half-Elves", and refluff Eladrin or Sidhe or something into the fullblooded ones. Certainly Tolkien Elves (especially circa Silmarillion) were capable of some pretty gnarly fey stuff.

[Fizban]

Aside from the fluff reasons, humans are also mechanically superior as a collective race than elves or dwarves if you think about it. Elves and dwarves get +2 to dex or con, for a +1 to AC or +1 hp at 1st level. A human gets a bonus feat of his choice, which could be a +1 to hit or +3 hp. Or +3 to a skill, or.... The versatility of the feat means they're actually more like a whole bunch of races working together, even if elves/dwarves get a bunch of other bonuses then humans just divide up the labor.

Of course if we keep taking the races of war route, then Sahaugin beat everyone. +4 int beats everything.

[Gnaeus]

Rather than give them racial HD, I would use the Racial Paragon classes from Unearthed Arcana. All dwarves are Dwarf Paragon 3. All elves are Elf Paragon 3 (or Drow Paragon 3, or a mixture of the 2, depending on your campaign). These are better than racial hit dice, and enhance the dwarfiness or elvishness of the races. I would tweak the paragon classes to be on par with the levels of optimization common in my parties (if you see lots of fighters and monks, racial paragons are fine. With Druids, Wizards and DMM clerics, give the paragons more toys.)

[Optimystik]

Of course if we keep taking the races of war route, then Sahaugin beat everyone. +4 int beats everything.

Not necessarily. The biggest advantage conferred by an extra feat is PrC qualification - humans can get into a good PrC earlier than most other races, thus have much greater power potential.

Humans also have Favored Class: Any, which eases their dipping, allowing them to more easily grab even more class features and feats.

[Thinker]

I'm going to make a couple of assumptions about your game world. Let me know if I'm way off.

First, the game world doesn't use the same mechanics as the PC's. For example, they don't care about XP, spell casters are fairly rare, and high level spell casters are even more rare. Any battle that you don't care about the outcome of is done using those mass combat rules.

Second, your players enjoy playing those races that you want to make off limits, but not because they're interested in the race's background. They like playing a dwarf because he has +2 to con and +4 against being tripped or an elf because of the +2 to dexterity.

My advice is to simply make a few human cultures that confer these bonuses so that they can get the bonuses they want without being demigods. As for the races themselves, grant bigger bonuses, add 1 - 2 racial HD, and give them an LA. They can still be uber without people questioning why they can't play them.

Uberdwarf:

Spoiler

Show

Type: Humanoid
HD: 2d8 (3/4 BAB)
Size: Small
Stat bonuses: +2 Str, +6 Con, -2 Cha
Traits:

• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
• Stability
• Powerful Build.

LA: +2

At first class level these would be ECL 5, which seems to fit into your desire.

[Jergmo]

Not necessarily. The biggest advantage conferred by an extra feat is PrC qualification - humans can get into a good PrC earlier than most other races, thus have much greater power potential.

Humans also have Favored Class: Any, which eases their dipping, allowing them to more easily grab even more class features and feats.

And humans can pump out 18 year old Batman's and CoDzilla's!