Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[InvisibleBison]

Does anyone else think that Serini's interactions with the trolls are evidence of at least one rank in Diplomacy?

I don't think you need to have ranks in Diplomacy in order to have friends. Serini could have used Diplomacy to befriend the trolls, but she could also have done it some other, more involved way, and since we don't actually see the process occurring we don't have enough information to determine which way it happened.

[danielxcutter]

I mean she probably does have at least a few ranks in it, but yeah not enough proof for the purposes of this thread.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think you need to have ranks in Diplomacy in order to have friends. Serini could have used Diplomacy to befriend the trolls, but she could also have done it some other, more involved way, and since we don't actually see the process occurring we don't have enough information to determine which way it happened.

Not to mention that Diplomacy isn't Trained Only, and Serini thinks she had a decent CHA even before the bonuses for her age.

[Xihirli]

Does this comic confirm that Ho Thanh was less than ninth level at the time?
I count nine times that you touch before the second line finishes.

[Seward]

Also, Elan is listed as owning no armour, which is incorrect, since he retrieved his old outfit (presumably including the chain shirt) from Nale, he's just not been wearing it for some time now.

I think Dashing Swordsman doesn't allow armor use (gotta show off that high charisma). Elan changed out of the chain shirt when he took that class, and we've never seen him in armor since. He might still have the armor in hammerspace, or he might have sold it to fund Haley's shopping at some point (azure city prior to invastion, tent city, bleedingham, tinkertown...)

[Metastachydium]

I think Dashing Swordsman doesn't allow armor use (gotta show off that high charisma). Elan changed out of the chain shirt when he took that class, and we've never seen him in armor since. He might still have the armor in hammerspace, or he might have sold it to fund Haley's shopping at some point (azure city prior to invastion, tent city, bleedingham, tinkertown...)

dancrilis, is that you? On a more serious note,
1. Elan changed out of his old outfit when Nale kidnapped him and took his clothes; he's been wearing his current garb well before he gained his first level in the prestige class, the restrictions imposed by which we know next to nothing about anyway; and
2. a cursory look tells me that Roy supposedly still owns his greatclub, the newspaper from a throwaway panel and that potion and Delay Posion plus the useless Shillelagh oil; Belkar is listed as having all of his pre-BRitF daggers, the unholy symbol of Whitecloak (which he has absolutely no use for) and a clothespin from another gag panel; V's inventory, in the meantime, also includes books we know they abandoned on the island in the wake of ABD's attack. By the same metric, Elan should absolutely not be described as owning no armour based on a strip that only proves he's not wearing one.

♣

Speaking of Belkar, the list of his belongings seems to assume he stole Haley's bag of holding. I see no reason to assume he did that.

[danielxcutter]

Didn’t he mention that Dashing Swordsman doesn’t really work with armor when Haley bought her own?

[Peelee]

Didn’t he mention that Dashing Swordsman doesn’t really work with armor when Haley bought her own?

Did he?

[InvisibleBison]

Did he?

Yes, he does.

[Xihirli]

Elan:

Int 4-9 (too low to cast cantrips, but higher than Thog.

Isn't mending a cantrip?

[Jervis]

Elan:


Isn't mending a cantrip?

To cast wizard cantrips not bard ones

[Yxylu]

Elan:


Isn't mending a cantrip?

As a bard, he uses charisma instead of intelligence for all of his spells, including cantrips.

[Jervis]

What spell was Xykon using to draw on the cliff walls in the newest issue? Too weak an effect for disintegrate and the spell itself seemed to work for a while so either it’s a cantrip he can spam or it has a duration. Either way it’s enough to damage rock without making a considerable dent

[Yanisa]

What spell was Xykon using to draw on the cliff walls in the newest issue? Too weak an effect for disintegrate and the spell itself seemed to work for a while so either it’s a cantrip he can spam or it has a duration. Either way it’s enough to damage rock without making a considerable dent

The only cantrips that can deal damage are Ray of Frost and Orb of Acid. Both don't fit this scene.

In addition, if we assume the cliff walls are stone, we are dealing with 8 hardness and 15hp/inch. Even if we assume the damaged surface layer is like 1/15 of an inch, we still need a spell that needs to deal at least 9 damage. Also there is a rule about Energy Attacks dealing less damage to objects. Stone seems to be outside cantrip range. (All damage cantrips deal 1d3 damage.)

Unless we go into a little bit of speculation: if Xykon has a 1d3 Ray of Fire cantrip (by switching energy types) and the damage is to ice instead of stone. It could be a modified Ray of Frost, or an homebrew cantrip.
(Ice has a hardness of 0, and 3hp/inch.)

Besides that, there aren't a lot of ray spells. There is Scorching Ray with 4d6 fire damage, which is a level 2 spell. It does have enough damage to destroy stone, but it wouldn't be consistent. If it is ice, it would be easy. Also it lacks the multiple rays that Scorching Ray is famous for, so I wouldn't use this scene as evidence for Scorching Ray.

Beyond Scorching Ray we get spells like Ray of Exhaustion, Polar Ray and Disintegrate. All poor candidates for this scene.

Perhaps someone else knows a better fit outside of the SRD list.

[Jervis]

The only cantrips that can deal damage are Ray of Frost and Orb of Acid. Both don't fit this scene.

In addition, if we assume the cliff walls are stone, we are dealing with 8 hardness and 15hp/inch. Even if we assume the damaged surface layer is like 1/15 of an inch, we still need a spell that needs to deal at least 9 damage. Also there is a rule about Energy Attacks dealing less damage to objects. Stone seems to be outside cantrip range. (All damage cantrips deal 1d3 damage.)

Unless we go into a little bit of speculation: if Xykon has a 1d3 Ray of Fire cantrip (by switching energy types) and the damage is to ice instead of stone. It could be a modified Ray of Frost, or an homebrew cantrip.
(Ice has a hardness of 0, and 3hp/inch.)

Besides that, there aren't a lot of ray spells. There is Scorching Ray with 4d6 fire damage, which is a level 2 spell. It does have enough damage to destroy stone, but it wouldn't be consistent. If it is ice, it would be easy. Also it lacks the multiple rays that Scorching Ray is famous for, so I wouldn't use this scene as evidence for Scorching Ray.

Beyond Scorching Ray we get spells like Ray of Exhaustion, Polar Ray and Disintegrate. All poor candidates for this scene.

Perhaps someone else knows a better fit outside of the SRD list.

As people have suggested Disintegrate Finesse can technically do it but the conversation took to long, if he was using that he would have melted it all in 6 seconds. I originally assumed it was a reserve feat but the only thing that remotely fits is Storm Bolt which is line effect that deals electric damage. Reach Spell + any of the Blank touch spells work, so he could be using something like Scalding Touch. Reach Scalding Touch (9th level spell effectively) deals 13d6 fire damage on each hit and after casting (he only pays the sorcerer metamagic badness on the initial casting) he can make a touch attack a number of times equal to his very high caster level. So it takes a while to cast but after that he has a CL use ray touch attack that can be made as an action or part of a full attack that can burn through a lot of stone.

[El Dorado]

Might be overkill, but I figured Xykon’s grafitti ray could be an archmage’s arcane fire ability. Though the prestige class requirements are a bit steep.

[Jervis]

Might be overkill, but I figured Xykon’s grafitti ray could be an archmage’s arcane fire ability. Though the prestige class requirements are a bit steep.

Wasn’t Xykon confirmed to have just taken sorcerer 20/ epic sorcerer x somewhere?

[MultitudeMan]

Reach Spell + any of the Blank touch spells work, so he could be using something like Scalding Touch. Reach Scalding Touch (9th level spell effectively) deals 13d6 fire damage on each hit and after casting (he only pays the sorcerer metamagic badness on the initial casting) he can make a touch attack a number of times equal to his very high caster level. So it takes a while to cast but after that he has a CL use ray touch attack that can be made as an action or part of a full attack that can burn through a lot of stone.

The only problem with Scalding Touch is that it's 7th level for Sorcerers, and we already have three confirmed 7th level spells for Xykon here, so we'd also have to add something like the epic feat Spell Knowledge as well.

[dancrilis]

We do know that Xykon has symbol spells - his drawing could be one (or more) of them, in theory.

[Jervis]

The only problem with Scalding Touch is that it's 7th level for Sorcerers, and we already have three confirmed 7th level spells for Xykon here, so we'd also have to add something like the epic feat Spell Knowledge as well.

There’s a 5th level spell that works just as well, storming touch IIRC. Also worth noting the Eberron stuff exists in the setting because Deathless from the Sapphire Guard

[hamishspence]

Deathless were in BoED before the Eberron Campaign Setting book came out.

though the possibly that the ones in OOTS were "cribbed off" Eberron is alluded to by Redcloak:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

[Metastachydium]

Yes, he does.

My mistake, then. The rest of my rant kind of stands notwithstanding, and I feel that at the very least, we could perhaps add the strip you linked as evidence for the conjecture in the first post instead of the largely nonindicative one with the Kubota and the boat.

Deathless were in BoED before the Eberron Campaign Setting book came out.

though the possibly that the ones in OOTS were "cribbed off" Eberron is alluded to by Redcloak:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

The "official" position of this here thread, on the other hand seems to be that they are of the BoED sort, and frankly, sacred watcher does indeed fit the abilities the ghost martyrs display quite well.

[Jervis]

My mistake, then. The rest of my rant kind of stands notwithstanding, and I feel that at the very least, we could perhaps add the strip you linked as evidence for the conjecture in the first post instead of the largely nonindicative one with the Kubota and the boat.



The "official" position of this here thread, on the other hand seems to be that they are of the BoED sort, and frankly, sacred watcher does indeed fit the abilities the ghost martyrs display quite well.

Yes but redcloak himself said they might be cribbed of a different setting so I think it’s valid

[InvisibleBison]

There’s a 5th level spell that works just as well, storming touch IIRC. Also worth noting the Eberron stuff exists in the setting because Deathless from the Sapphire Guard

Just because one element of a given setting is incorporated into another setting doesn't mean every element of the first setting has been so incorporated.

[Metastachydium]

Just because one element of a given setting is incorporated into another setting doesn't mean every element of the first setting has been so incorporated.

For my part, I concur.

[durron597]

Oona's analysis from #1263 clearly indicates a high wisdom score, but maybe we need more rigor than that to give mental stats attribute scores?

I wonder if Oona's insightfulness stems from a combination of low or average Int + High Wis, or a good amount of both but low formal education? Or maybe no way to tell?

[dancrilis]

Oona's analysis from #1263 clearly indicates a high wisdom score, but maybe we need more rigor than that to give mental stats attribute scores?

I believe you mean 1262, and it is not enough to go on for any kind of changes.

I wonder if Oona's insightfulness stems from a combination of low or average Int + High Wis, or a good amount of both but low formal education? Or maybe no way to tell?

I tend to lean towards fine int and wis (12+ on both) and just cultural language used - might change that as we see more of her or deal with more of the bugbears.

[Sybarith]

Does comic 1264 give us any new hints into Redcloak's level?
Since you can only summon as many hit die worth of monsters as your caster level, do we know what the combined level of those monsters are?
My guess is that's a Quarton with a few Monodrones to fill in the remaining hit die, but the total CR seems off for where Redcloak should be at this stage and I don't see why he wouldn't summon the maximum he could. Or maybe more of them are about to come through the portal before it closes?

[Jervis]

Does comic 1264 give us any new hints into Redcloak's level?
Since you can only summon as many hit die worth of monsters as your caster level, do we know what the combined level of those monsters are?
My guess is that's a Quarton with a few Monodrones to fill in the remaining hit die, but the total CR seems off for where Redcloak should be at this stage and I don't see why he wouldn't summon the maximum he could. Or maybe more of them are about to come through the portal before it closes?

Actually the spell only specifies a HD limit if the creatures are not unique and you’re trying to control them. If that creature is a unique creature then there’s no limit but he can’t control it. That said he won’t be controlling them anyway because control only lasts for a few rounds so he needs to negotiate anyway. That said we know he’s at least 17 but likely not epic, otherwise epic spellcasting is a thing. And RC, unlike Xykon, is probably smart enough to use that

[Yendor]

Meanwhile, we have in-comic confirmation that Redcloak is Lawful.