Hilarious things you've found in RAW?

[Pinkie Pyro]

"One spell slot eight levels higher than the innate spell is permanently used to power it" means that if you don't have a spell slot eight levels higher, you can't power the spell-like ability, i.e. you can't use it. Seems like the most obvious reading to me.

Except it doesn't say anything about if you don't have that spell slot.

You're interpreting, not reading exactly what's written. what you referenced doesn't even interact with the rules at all, unless someone has a reference for "uses spell slot to power it" having an explicit example elsewhere.

In fact, with the other text, RAI it doesn't even actually do anything to the spell slot, you just have to *have* a spell slot of that level open to use it, sorta like the reserve feats.

[InvisibleBison]

Because it's RAW,

RAW isn't a real thing.

and that is the logic chain.

It is a logic chain, one that arrives at a nonsensical conclusion that directly contradicts the clear intent of the

By all means, present yours.

My interpretation is: The feat says "One spell slot eight levels higher than the innate spell is permanently used to power it", so you have to have a spell slot eight levels higher than the innate spell.

[Pinkie Pyro]

RAW isn't a real thing.

{scrubbed}

[InvisibleBison]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I did, yes. The fact that people assert that RAW exists doesn't make it do so.

[Peelee]

I did, yes. The fact that people assert that RAW exists doesn't make it do so.

Imean, we can say the same thing in reverse. And the fact that we can discuss rules, as they have been written, certainly seems to indicate that "rules as written" exists. And that's before we consider that "the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law" as a concept has existed for quite some time.

---

Now, back to the thread purpose, are we counting just the most obvious formatting errors? Because Complete Adventurer printed the Vigilante Prestige Class, which could learn up to 4 3rd level spells and 4 4th level spells. But there was an error in the spells per day column. You would never get any 4th level spells by pure RAW, though, and would be MASSIVELY overpowered instead - at level 7, instead of getting 2 3rd level spells and 0 4th level spells per day, you would instead get 20 3rd level spells per day. At 8th level, 31 spells per day. All ten levels in Vigilante, you only know 4 3rd level spells but you can cast them 33 times a day. You also know 4 4th level spells that you can never cast, but hey, that tradeoff might well be worth it.

[redking]

You're interpreting, not reading exactly what's written.

There is a difference between interpreting and comprehending. In this case there is no difference between the rules as written and the rules as intended. {Scrubbed}

[Pinkie Pyro]

Now, back to the thread purpose, are we counting just the most obvious formatting errors? Because Complete Adventurer printed the Vigilante Prestige Class, which could learn up to 4 3rd level spells and 4 4th level spells. But there was an error in the spells per day column. You would never get any 4th level spells by pure RAW, though, and would be MASSIVELY overpowered instead - at level 7, instead of getting 2 3rd level spells and 0 4th level spells per day, you would instead get 20 3rd level spells per day. At 8th level, 31 spells per day. All ten levels in Vigilante, you only know 4 3rd level spells but you can cast them 33 times a day. You also know 4 4th level spells that you can never cast, but hey, that tradeoff might well be worth it.

Were there any useful spells on it's list at 3rd though? And you could cast 4th level... if you had the Versatile spellcaster feat.

There is a difference between interpreting and comprehending. In this case there is no difference between the rules as written and the rules as intended. Scrub the post, scrub the quote

Oh, please explain the error in logic then{Scrubbed}

remember that some rules text still ends up being descriptive only, for instance:

"A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease."

that line is rules text, but doesn't actually describe anything mechanically.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review.

[Pirate ninja]

Modly Roger:

Thread reopened, please treat each other respectfully.

[Martin Greywolf]

I, personally, find slings absolutely hilarious in DnD. By the rules, they are a simple weapon with very low range doing little damage.

In reality, they are THE hardest weapon to learn to use proficiently (beating even things like nunchucks, flails and san jie gun), do damage comparable with a musket (albeit their anti-armor performance isn't very good) and I, personally, can sling a baseball to about 150 meters (450 feet). Good slingers can get to about 200 (600) with a baseball/rock and 400 (1200) with a shaped bullet.

I don't think I've ever seen a TTRPG get a weapon this badly wrong. Unlesss it was FATAL.

[ShurikVch]

I, personally, find slings absolutely hilarious in DnD. By the rules, they are a simple weapon with very low range doing little damage.

In reality, they are THE hardest weapon to learn to use proficiently (beating even things like nunchucks, flails and san jie gun), do damage comparable with a musket (albeit their anti-armor performance isn't very good) and I, personally, can sling a baseball to about 150 meters (450 feet). Good slingers can get to about 200 (600) with a baseball/rock and 400 (1200) with a shaped bullet.

I don't think I've ever seen a TTRPG get a weapon this badly wrong. Unlesss it was FATAL.

It's widely accepted opinion: when WotC wrote rules for sling, they actually thought "slingshot" - thus the inconsistencies


One more well-known mistake with a weapon: scythes
Nothing majorly wrong with the mechanics, but the actual battle scythe looks like this:

[Gemini476]

Slings are one of those things where people think it underscores how much David was the underdog vs. Goliath, but actually it's just a really good weapon and him using a sling wasn't the issue in that matchup.
It was basically the Indiana Jones scene where the swordsman does some impressive maneuvers and then Indy just shoots him. Solid rock straight to the dome. Physical size and reach doesn't do much against someone with a ranged weapon that can cause lethal damage through armor.

People like to think that slings are really inaccurate and not that great because they're kind of hard to use, but if you do know how to use them (say, from being a bored shepherd who's practiced for years to scare away lions) then they're a lethal weapon of war.

Really, if anything, they should be Martial weapons if not outright Exotic... and on a related note the firearms in the DMG shouldn't be Exotic, they should be Simple. (Anyone being able to use one was the big appeal, after all!)

[Bohandas]

Has anyone pointed out that as written the Darkness spell can actually make things brighter, since it sets the level of light to shadowy illumination, and therefore would actually brighten a room that was pitcch dark

[Pinkie Pyro]

I, personally, find slings absolutely hilarious in DnD. By the rules, they are a simple weapon with very low range doing little damage.

In reality, they are THE hardest weapon to learn to use proficiently (beating even things like nunchucks, flails and san jie gun), do damage comparable with a musket (albeit their anti-armor performance isn't very good) and I, personally, can sling a baseball to about 150 meters (450 feet). Good slingers can get to about 200 (600) with a baseball/rock and 400 (1200) with a shaped bullet.

I don't think I've ever seen a TTRPG get a weapon this badly wrong. Unlesss it was FATAL.

I mean, the real funny thing about the RAW weapon table is that they decided to individually stat out so many weapons, but not really give most of them a reason to ever be used.

Has anyone pointed out that as written the Darkness spell can actually make things brighter, since it sets the level of light to shadowy illumination, and therefore would actually brighten a room that was pitcch dark

And this could all have been avoided if it had been named "shadow", because you have to have a source of light to make a shadow. then we wouldn't need "deeper darkness" just darkness.

[Seward]

Has anyone pointed out that as written the Darkness spell can actually make things brighter, since it sets the level of light to shadowy illumination, and therefore would actually brighten a room that was pitcch dark

That was one thing Pathfinder unambiguously did better. Light spells (or the sun) set the ambient, and darkness spells reduced it (although illumination that wasn't the sun was usually overridden by darkness). Reduce it to where everything is shadowy, and the lowlight guys are happy. Reduce it so only darkvision works, and they're happy. Absolutely black it out, and the Grimlocks are happy. To cancel out an effect set by a light or darkness spell you had to be equal spell level, to override it you had to be higher spell level (basically same as 3.5).

[St Fan]

The Half-Dragon template say absolutely nothing about the character's aging and longevity.

So by RAW, a half-human/half-dragon still ages like a baseline human.

[Remuko]

The Half-Dragon template say absolutely nothing about the character's aging and longevity.

So by RAW, a half-human/half-dragon still ages like a baseline human.

the template doesnt but later books elaborated on this. the draconomicon or races of the dragon iirc.

[Pinkie Pyro]

The Half-Dragon template say absolutely nothing about the character's aging and longevity.

So by RAW, a half-human/half-dragon still ages like a baseline human.

It also has no restrictions on having the template multiple times, so realistically speaking, every single true dragon should have it twice, as they're two-halves dragon.

In a less stupid sense, It does actually mean that a mixed-species dragon would be more powerful potentially, if you used the stronger parent as the base race and applied half dragon from the other.

[Bavarian itP]

The Half-Dragon template say absolutely nothing about the character's aging and longevity.

So by RAW, a half-human/half-dragon still ages like a baseline human.

And where is the hilarious thing?

[Martin Greywolf]

Slings are one of those things where people think it underscores how much David was the underdog vs. Goliath, but actually it's just a really good weapon and him using a sling wasn't the issue in that matchup.
It was basically the Indiana Jones scene where the swordsman does some impressive maneuvers and then Indy just shoots him. Solid rock straight to the dome. Physical size and reach doesn't do much against someone with a ranged weapon that can cause lethal damage through armor.

Slings are about on par with late medieval warbows, whether longbows or Ottoman, albeit a lot worse against solid plate armor. The David vs Goliath story was a big deal because David was a slinger so skilled he could land a called shot in the middle of the forehead - that skill was what was exceptional, not the damage done.

People like to think that slings are really inaccurate and not that great because they're kind of hard to use, but if you do know how to use them (say, from being a bored shepherd who's practiced for years to scare away lions) then they're a lethal weapon of war.

I mean, you need to spend ten times the training time than for a longbow, and you get a weapon that matches it, but is worse against armor.

Really, if anything, they should be Martial weapons if not outright Exotic... and on a related note the firearms in the DMG shouldn't be Exotic, they should be Simple. (Anyone being able to use one was the big appeal, after all!)

Exotic no contest. I can use a longbow or a halberd just fine, and you get to be proficient in using them in a few months. Longbow will take about as long, depending on how physically fit you are. A sling... well, after about half a year, you will no longer be a danger to your own side and able to hit large formations on a good day. You can do that day 1 with a longbow, provided you can draw it.

[Promethean]

In a less stupid sense, It does actually mean that a mixed-species dragon would be more powerful potentially, if you used the stronger parent as the base race and applied half dragon from the other.

Huh. So in a non-vacuum setting where things aren't controlled from getting out of hand by writers, mixed race dragons would out compete their pure breed cousins?

Interesting... (furiously scribes notes for no reason)

[Bohandas]

Exotic no contest. I can use a longbow or a halberd just fine, and you get to be proficient in using them in a few months. Longbow will take about as long, depending on how physically fit you are. A sling... well, after about half a year, you will no longer be a danger to your own side and able to hit large formations on a good day. You can do that day 1 with a longbow, provided you can draw it.

And on the reverse side, guns should be simple weapons. The whole point of them is their streamlined design and simple point-and-click interface

[Pinkie Pyro]

Huh. So in a non-vacuum setting where things aren't controlled from getting out of hand by writers, mixed race dragons would out compete their pure breed cousins?

Interesting... (furiously scribes notes for no reason)

yeah turns out inbreeding is bad, who knew?

[InvisibleBison]

Really, if anything, they should be Martial weapons if not outright Exotic... and on a related note the firearms in the DMG shouldn't be Exotic, they should be Simple. (Anyone being able to use one was the big appeal, after all!)

Exotic no contest. I can use a longbow or a halberd just fine, and you get to be proficient in using them in a few months. Longbow will take about as long, depending on how physically fit you are. A sling... well, after about half a year, you will no longer be a danger to your own side and able to hit large formations on a good day. You can do that day 1 with a longbow, provided you can draw it.

And on the reverse side, guns should be simple weapons. The whole point of them is their streamlined design and simple point-and-click interface

I don't think the simple/martial/exotic trichotomy is meant to represent how easy it is to learn to use a weapon; rather, it's meant to restrict access to the mechanically better weapons. Martial weapons are, by and large, better than similar simple weapons, and exotic weapons are either better than similar martial weapons or are monk weapons. Thus, access to the superior martial weapons requires either that you have levels in a martial class or spend a feat, and access to the even more superior exotic weapons requires even martial characters to spend a feat. It's purely a game balance decision as to what category a weapon falls into.

[Morphic tide]

I don't think the simple/martial/exotic trichotomy is meant to represent how easy it is to learn to use a weapon; rather, it's meant to restrict access to the mechanically better weapons. Martial weapons are, by and large, better than similar simple weapons, and exotic weapons are either better than similar martial weapons or are monk weapons. Thus, access to the superior martial weapons requires either that you have levels in a martial class or spend a feat, and access to the even more superior exotic weapons requires even martial characters to spend a feat. It's purely a game balance decision as to what category a weapon falls into.

As opposed to making like Full Plate and having the bar to entry be a price tag well out of reach of 1st-level characters? Or using realistic reload times to make the things irrelevant to PCs without dramatic interventions of magic and feats? Or even make the EWP for something other than avoiding an attack roll penalty, like avoiding the previous!

[Scots Dragon]

yeah turns out inbreeding is bad, who knew?

Hybrid vigour, or heterosis, is also a well-known phenomenon.

[ShurikVch]

The Half-Dragon template say absolutely nothing about the character's aging and longevity.

So by RAW, a half-human/half-dragon still ages like a baseline human.

Until the Races of the Dragon, I was pretty sure it was intended like this

In a less stupid sense, It does actually mean that a mixed-species dragon would be more powerful potentially, if you used the stronger parent as the base race and applied half dragon from the other.

Huh. So in a non-vacuum setting where things aren't controlled from getting out of hand by writers, mixed race dragons would out compete their pure breed cousins?

So, like asari in Mass Effect? (Except no Ardat-Yakshi equivalent)

[Seward]

Actually I find the fact that dragons can breed with ANYTHING corporeal pretty hilarious.

“Half-dragon” is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

I'm not sure exactly how even with polymorph-assisted relationships a half-dragon-ooze works, but....it seems to. The baby ooze gets 6 skill points a racial level...minus int modifiers, but int is raised 2 and it is now dragon type, so it isn't mindless anymore...

We had a GM take it to silly extremes early in 3.0 (the half dragon stirges that swarmed us and all breathed at once got one player to get up and walk away from the table for good...). But basically the dragon at the bottom of that dungeon had bred with pretty much everything in the dungeon...

Living Greyhawk had a red dragon Morgenstaler in the Bandit Kingdoms famous for sleeping with anything (odd half dragon encounters in his area were famous and he'd get mad if he found out you killed any of them) and there was one scenario where he romanced a PC, took her out on a date and she could end up with an egg to raise.... (I had a character who had the distinction of being REJECTED by him, which was crushing for her, since a half dragon GOAT was encountered later...)

Things you have a character say on the last day of the convention that squick out the party "I have wildshape, if goats are what he is into...."

[Wildstag]

It also has no restrictions on having the template multiple times, so realistically speaking, every single true dragon should have it twice, as they're two-halves dragon.

In a less stupid sense, It does actually mean that a mixed-species dragon would be more powerful potentially, if you used the stronger parent as the base race and applied half dragon from the other.

Do note that the half-dragon template can't be applied to a dragon, per RotD p72.

Since the half-dragon template can apply to any living creature type other than dragons, a nearly limitless variety of possible half-dragons exist.

So for a mixed-species dragon to be more powerful than the full-blooded parent, the non-dragon parent would need to be as strong as (or barely less powerful than) the dragon parent.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Do note that the half-dragon template can't be applied to a dragon, per RotD p72.

That's certainly not what the primary source says:

Creating A Half-Dragon: "Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).