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2022-07-18, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
The first part of the sentence sole restricts your movement. I guess we share this view and we can proceed to the remaining part of the sentence.
The final part of the sentence gives you additional "attack replacement"-actions (in addition to those "attack replacement" options you are given in the general grappling rules).
Where does it say that you can't use the "general attack action"-options anymore? The general grappling rules still apply. You are still in a grapple state. A specific one, but the rule provided for that specific "pin" state sole restrict your movement and add options that you can use instead of an attack. Nowhere does it say you can't attack anymore.
This is not a full lock grappling technique where your enemies actions are totally restricted. The 3.5 "pin" state is when the grapplers are on the ground and one has the upper position. The grounded grappler can still attack (e.g. a headbutt; a knife, claws, bite...).
Do you know the "mount" stance? A common grappling stance from many combat arts. The "3.5 pin" resembles something like in This Video. You have the option to prevent your foe from speaking if you want (to invest your action into it), but you foe is still capable of attacking you back or can try to escape the "pin/mount" state. It is not a state of full lock used for submission. The 3.5 rules don't reflect this kind of grappling.
Let's read.
"Cast a Spell" is the single grapple action option which has this sentence (or even while pinned). This means over options (besides options added in pin description) are not available. In pin description are added two options: "try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack" and "make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action". Eventually we have only three possible action for pinned creature.
If you still don't agree with me, there is one guy who can confirm my words, you maybe know him.
Sadly, "Skip" seems to have the false impression what RAW is dictating here. His intention (if he did write that rule at all) was maybe that "pin" should resemble a "full lock submission hold", but that is not what the rules tell us. "Pin" is grounded grappling with one person in a favorable position, e.g. "mounting your foe".
Your assumption "fire elemental can actually consist of cold fire" while is from real life physics and can be "explanation" doesn't work. First. I gave you quotas where write - Fire Elemental is hot!
Second. Aragorn's pant. J. R. R. Tolkien newer said that Aragorn wore pant. Does it mean that Aragorn walk around parading his reproductive organs or we should use default idea that men wear pants? Nowhere in D&D rules said nothing about Fire elemental temperature, yes. Do you really think Fire elemental can be room temperature without special indication to this? Or can we use our default that "fire is hot"?
It is impossible option.
Still impossible.
Read again:
What materials can be set aflame by a room temperature or a temperature slightly below boiling point?
___
As said, if we start to nitpick, we could also argue that nobody gets sunburn from taking fire damage or by having a fire elemental standing near to you all day long. And we have "sunburn" rules in Sandstorm, but these don't cover such specific situations. From a logical point of view: "When a foe's entire body was grilled by an fire AoE attack, he should have at least the same condition as someone who is merely sunburn."Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2022-07-18 at 12:44 AM. Reason: typos..
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2022-07-18, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Can't agree with you. For me it looks exactly as full available list (plus casting a spell as special exception) of "attack replacement" actions available for pinned creature.
Where does it say that you can't use the "general attack action"-options anymore?
Escape from Grapple
You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).
Pin Your Opponent
You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).
This is not a full lock grappling technique where your enemies actions are totally restricted.
The 3.5 "pin" state is when the grapplers are on the ground and one has the upper position. The grounded grappler can still attack (e.g. a headbutt; a knife, claws, bite...).
The "3.5 pin" resembles something like in This Video.
This is not a full lock grappling technique where your enemies actions are totally restricted.
casting a spell just confirms with a friendly reminder that the general options are still available in the "pin" state.
Sadly, "Skip" seems to have the false impression what RAW is dictating here.
Cold fire was just to showcase that you can produce fire at nearly any temperature. There are still limits like the freezing point. But the argument was intended to show that any temperature is possible. We assume that on first contact (when the fire is still fully exposed to Oxygen to fuel its reaction) the fire is at the hottest state and just enough to damage you. But constant contact extinguishes the flames locally temporarily enough to prevent further damage. While a punch or headbutt will cause new/additional body parts to come into contact.Last edited by loky1109; 2022-07-18 at 02:40 AM.
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2022-07-18, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Is that an additional, more general dysfunction, then? "Being grappled and pinned fails to prevent most actions?"
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2022-07-18, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-07-18, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Minute of historic facts: ancient Romans considered pants a "barbaric clothes", and - indeed - wore no pants.
Medieval Europeans inherited this sentiment: chausses were, in fact, stockings - not pants.
Now, since Lord of the Rings was made to look - more or less - like a medieval Europe, then should Aragorn really wear pants?
At the very least, he didn't - in the Ralph Bakshi's version:
Last edited by ShurikVch; 2022-07-18 at 05:52 PM.
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2022-07-19, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
From the Player's Handbook II:
Originally Posted by Ki Blast
At first I just thought it was a typo, and they meant 6th level... except it goes on and specify you also need a BAB+6, which a 6th level monk with a normal progression doesn't get at 6th level, but indeed at 8th level, so it looks like there's no mistake...
Thus a monk has no choice but to take the feat a 8th level, but doesn't get a bonus feat at 8th level... color me confused!
(Note that it matter much considering Ki Blast is crap, but still...)Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-07-19, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Native Sha'ir enthusiast. NO GENIE WARLOCK DOESNT COUNT!
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2022-07-19, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-07-19, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Last edited by loky1109; 2022-07-19 at 04:39 PM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-07-19, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
and which part of the text indicates this for you? If you can't point it out, it sole your imagination (no offense here, but my brain needs to confirm it, otherwise it won't believe you ;)
By that logic, you can use this option being pinned:
Escape from Grapple
You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).
Pin Your Opponent
You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).
Originally Posted by When you are Pinned
Regading "Pin Your Opponent":
It's the same debate as in "can you trip someone who is already tripped?". And after 20 years of discussions, imho most people are on the "No you can't trip someone who is already tripped"-side. As such, you can't pin someone even further then he is already "pinned". That is by logic not possible. It's like saying "I stand up, while already standing". You can't further stand up than normal. So pls, lets skip this nonsense. It won't make anyone happy and it won't bring any meaningful results.
I think it exactly is. And should be. Yes, wording is slightly poor and ambiguous, but there are nothing against my interpretation.
...
Do you know how D&D 3.5 should work better than Skip Williams? It's... arrogantly.
What we have is:
- rules for standing grappling (standing as in the 3.5 rules)
- rules for grounded grappling (grounded as in the 3.5 rules)
The question or problem is, which kind of grounded grappling this is. Is it:
(a) just both grappler at the ground, both in equal good/bad position.
(b) both grapplers at the ground and one has the upper hand
(c) both grapplers are at the ground, but one has a "full lock" on the other.
I can see why the "full lock" option (c) is appealing and why even Skip Williams seems be believe in it. So you have an argument for RAI as said. But RAW speak another language here. RAW sole adds options and restrict some, but not all other options.
So imho, the "pin" state is best reflected by option (b), that one grappler has the upper hand, which alters the options slightly (and doesn't exchanges em completely).
If you disagree, point me to the text phrase where you are basing of your interpretation please.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2022-07-19, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Already did it. At least two times.
Regarding the "Escape from Grapple"We have specific rules that trump the general rules for escape from grapple.
It's the same debate as in "can you trip someone who is already tripped?".
As such, you can't pin someone even further then he is already "pinned".
We are talking about actions available for PINNED creature. Not one who pins, but one who is pinned.
What we have is:
- rules for standing grappling (standing as in the 3.5 rules)
- rules for grounded grappling (grounded as in the 3.5 rules)
The question or problem is, which kind of grounded grappling this is. Is it:
(a) just both grappler at the ground, both in equal good/bad position.
(b) both grapplers at the ground and one has the upper hand
(c) both grapplers are at the ground, but one has a "full lock" on the other.
But RAW speak another language here.
And while we have ambiguous wording we should use RAI. Especially since RAI is pretty clear stated by one of game designers.
If you disagree, point me to the text phrase where you are basing of your interpretation please.Last edited by loky1109; 2022-07-19 at 11:22 PM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-07-21, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-07-21, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-07-22, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Yeah, I guess making too much sense is entirely against the mood of the thread...
Okay, this one I don't know if it counts as a dysfunctional rule, or just as false advertising...
Originally Posted by SRDSpoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-07-22, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I'm honestly surprised that only 8 spells break the dodge bonus rule. (And I'm a bit amused that one of them is in the Player's Handbook, no less)
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2022-07-23, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Animus template (Dragon #339):
Feats: An animus gain Alertness, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats, assuming it meets the prerequisites and it doesn't already have these feats.
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2022-07-23, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-07-23, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Native Sha'ir enthusiast. NO GENIE WARLOCK DOESNT COUNT!
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2022-08-01, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
As a tangent from this thread, the Craft Artifact divine salient ability lets its holder create various magic items, but fails to specify that the items made with it are artifacts as opposed to normal magic items that happen to exceed the regular crafting limits.
3.5e, obviouslyLast edited by Bucky; 2022-08-02 at 11:21 AM.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2022-08-03, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
there’s a lot of 2e in arms and equipment guide, there’s a big chunk of its item lists that’s the sfw sections of aurora’s whole realms catalogue. Which is a shame with some of the interesting bits being missing as I feel 3e could benefit from knowing the price of a elf dress versus a human dress
Last edited by Malphegor; 2022-08-03 at 04:46 AM.
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2022-08-09, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
This one may have been already mentioned; at least I'm sure it was discussed on this forum, although maybe not in this thread.
The spell arcane spellsurge reduces casting time of arcane spells. For example, a "standard action" casting time becomes a swift action.
It cannot be ignored, though, thus it specifies that you can't cast two spells which casting times were both reduced to a swift action, because you can't use two swift actions in a round.
Except... you CAN uses two swift actions in a round. It's called "Readying an Action". With a standard action, you can ready a standard, move, swift or free action. And of course, the readying condition can be "immediately".
(Note that the original rules about readying an action don't mention the swift action, but that's only because they were introduced later in the game. The Rule Compendium clarifies that swift actions are covered by the Ready rules.)
Hence, the affirmation made by arcane spellsurge is blatantly false.Last edited by St Fan; 2022-08-09 at 06:08 PM.
Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-08-09, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
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2022-08-10, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2022-08-10, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2022-08-10, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2022-08-10, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
On the DM end, I might allow a one-off Dodge bonus to saving throws, particularly Reflex. Not more than once per campaign, though.
Last edited by Bucky; 2022-08-10 at 01:20 PM.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2022-08-10, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-08-10, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
You are correct, dodge bonuses to reflex saves are specifically called out as valid. The haste spell and whirling frenzy barbarian both give dodge bonuses to reflex saves.
Dodge bonuses to Will or Fort saves are what I might allow once per campaign.The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2022-08-12, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Back in 1st edition I had a local bandit leader called the "Cursed Bandit". His schtick was to infiltrate caravans as an ordinary, unarmed person then ambush the leadership or guards in cursed fullplate and cursed sword, just before his minions ambushed. Sure both weapon and armor were -1 and might shatter under rare circumstances, but were a lot better than fighting unarmed and he usually started in some situation when he was at a major advantage (target is sleeping, bathing, etc - if he was the appropriate gender preference he might try an "intimate" meeting with them).
His goal was to acquire more such items so he could infiltrate with a squad but the PC's put him down. His Lieutenants tended to be equipped with magical loot scrapings from the bottom of the magic-mart barrel - +1 scale armor or shortsword +1/+4 vs lizards. He had ties with merchants that bought the crap found in dungeons that no PC ever wanted to use. Some items had in fact been recently sold by PCs, which also exposed his merchant contacts much to the displeasure of local law enforcement and their fellow merchants.Last edited by Seward; 2022-08-12 at 11:45 AM.
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2022-08-24, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Enforcers gain a +1 bonus to their leadership score, although the maximum number and level of their followers and cohorts remains standard.
Also, don't know if it was already mentioned, but:
Originally Posted by Stormwrack