[WFRP] The Bloody Crown OOC XV

[RossN]

Again in the unlikely event our characters survive this I think Jarla will have a lot of loud words for Sieghard and his 'tactics' here.

[TheSummoner]

Jarla: Sieghard is dumb for trying to talk them down. Either fight or back down.
Also Jarla, in one of the same posts: *Wastes a bullet attacking the sky* you better stop or I'mma shoot ya.

Just focus on trying to get the crowd to hold. If I have to eat a free attack or two charging the back of the pike line solo, so be it, but I can't do it this round.

Edit: Just how far has the pike line advanced from where Sieghard is fighting? I imagine they'd have slowed down quite a bit when they reached the crowd, but I need to figure out how feasible it is for Sieghard to reach Jarla and Urgrim.

[RossN]

Jarla: Sieghard is dumb for trying to talk them down. Either fight or back down.
Also Jarla, in one of the same posts: *Wastes a bullet attacking the sky* you better stop or I'mma shoot ya.

Just focus on trying to get the crowd to hold. If I have to eat a free attack or two charging the back of the pike line solo, so be it, but I can't do it this round.

I'm sorry but I just don't get Sieghard's thought process here. Clearly the crowd are not going to hold when they are being slaughtered by the dozen by pikemen - pikemen so well armoured that even Jarla is going to struggle to wound one (short of an Ulric's Fury killing or even just disabling one is out of the question.)

At this point I think we'll have to look at surrender to prevent the Iron Company slaughtering everyone in the village.

[TheSummoner]

Well I guess you're right and we should just give up then. We'll all be executed. Irene hates Elsa and Ludo so they'll be next. Bardhyl might last a bit longer. Game over everyone, it's been a good run.

[rax]

For Jarla and Urgrim, there's always running away to fight another day. For Sieghard too, if he can manage to cut his way out.

As far as the crowd is concerned, Sieghard was always right in the sense that if it came to violence, they'd never actually stand a chance against the Company on their own. Way too much heart, far too little in terms of armour and weapons.

[RossN]

Well I guess you're right and we should just give up then. We'll all be executed. Irene hates Elsa and Ludo so they'll be next. Bardhyl might last a bit longer. Game over everyone, it's been a good run.

Or we could escape or be rescued by the Thorns or anything.

Yes we screwed this up and I accept the blame as much as anyone - I seriously underestimated the Iron Company - but even surrender is preferable to just getting a pike through the neck.

As alternative gamble: have Sieghard take Coronado hostage in exchange for safe passage. That still might not work (these are hardbitten mercs afterall) and if we escape we'll be on the run but it's the only other plausible way out I see that doesn't involve dozens of dead civilians.

[TheSummoner]

There is no way out that doesn't involve dozens of dead civilians. There stopped being a way out that involved dozens of dead civilians when Sieghard failed his charm roll. Either we break a hole in the Iron Company line and manage to beat them at high cost or we fail/run and just as many die but for nothing.

[RossN]

Okay then, we'll keep fighting - and hope for Hannah.

[Thragka]

I reject the dichotomy that we either have to beat the Iron Company, or it was all for naught. I mean, I still agree that we didn’t approach this correctly, but I don’t see any reason to think of this engagement as exclusively either leading to our total victory or total defeat. Things are about to change in a big way – but that was always going to be true, whatever the outcome of the PCs’ particular actions here. I don’t consider us to have lost or abandoned our agency yet.

Perhaps Sieghard, in the thick of things, really does think that this is life or death for him, his values and his legacy. I’m not so sure Urgrim does, though.

[Thragka]

Big ol’ double post since I get the feeling that time is in short supply both in and out of character.

With Fellowship of only 32 and the crowd already wavering, I don’t see Urgrim’s public speaking skills as realistically having any mechanical effect here. Nonetheless, I could be willing to burn a Fate point here, LCP, for a fair trade of tangible, dramatic benefit. Perhaps using his dawi constitution and history of cultured shouting, Urgrim could shout a few words that would be miraculously heard by Hanna over the din? Is that an offer you might be willing to entertain?

Mmm, delicious PC Fate point. My mouth’s already watering at the thought. I’m smacking my lips and rubbing my tummy here.

[RossN]

I'll try and post this evening but if I can't Jarla is going to order a civilian to run to camp and get Hannah and the Thorns. I'll try and tie that into a general appeal to the civilians.

[TheSummoner]

Let's maybe not rush into bartering fate points here.

I reject the dichotomy that we either have to beat the Iron Company, or it was all for naught. I mean, I still agree that we didn’t approach this correctly, but I don’t see any reason to think of this engagement as exclusively either leading to our total victory or total defeat.

There was no approach. It came at us and nothing I tried could stop it. Then it hit the point where the choice was act or stand by and be a part of the slaughter (not participating wouldn't make it better) and that was a line I wasn't willing to cross.

Things are about to change in a big way – but that was always going to be true, whatever the outcome of the PCs’ particular actions here. I don’t consider us to have lost or abandoned our agency yet.

Certainly not. My comments were only in regards to outright surrender.

Perhaps Sieghard, in the thick of things, really does think that this is life or death for him, his values and his legacy. I’m not so sure Urgrim does, though.

I don't think Sieghard thinks much about legacy. Siezing the food was one thing, but ordering the Iron Company against the crowd crossed a line. It's too close to outright banditry and too close to what Nahorek did to the people of Caerfort.

So just to break it down.
Ideal Outcome: The Iron Company men are killed to a man. Sussman either remains ignorant or is coerced into keeping his mouth shut. Word never reaches Sforza of the PC's role in what happened. This is becoming increasingly unlikely.
Acceptable Outcome: The Iron Company suffers heavy casualties and the food never reaches Sforza. Either we stop them from siezing it or we regroup and stop them from transporting it. They can't exactly reach Savonne without passing through Sieghard's territory. We are now in open war.
Game Over Screen: Iron Company victory. Sieghard/Jarla captured (I don't think they'd try to capture Urgrim.

Resources we have
The Crowd: If they hold, we can either try to break open the Iron Company line or buy time to get out so we can regroup.
The Thorns: Those present in Manaan's Keep are outnumbered at least 2 to 1. Throwing them in unsupported is throwing their lives away. If we fall back to Painford, regroup the entire company, and probably try for an ambush though, the odds are better.
The Volunteers?": There are soldiers in Manaan's Keep other than the Thorns and the Iron Company. They've previously served under Sieghard and may still have personal loyalty and they're mostly recruited from the Manaan's Keep area so likely none too happy about their friends and neighbors being slaughtered. It's not unlikely we could get them on our side if we reached them first.

There's also the fact that the Iron Company will have lost it's leadership. Even if we fail at everything else, Sieghard can easily finish off Corrado (I'm actually not sure how he survived the last round). That's going to put them in some disarray.

[LCP]

mmm something smells goo- hey wait a minute

I can't remember if we've done this before (burning a fate point for a success rather than survival), and thanks to the disappearance of the OOC threads I can't go back and check. Is anyone else's memory better than mine? I'm not going to say no right away, but I am wary of this because Fate and Fortune are already pretty powerful, and with 5 PCs there are a lot of Fate Points to burn on big moments. unless I start making the day-to-day a whole lot more lethal...

Regarding positioning, Sieghard can still just reach the back of the line pushing against Urgrim & Jarla with a charge move. However, he'd have to break through 2 ranks of pikemen to get through to their side. They are still eyes forward, so they wouldn't be prepared for him to rush them from behind; he could try to push through them with a Strength test. A charge won't have enough movement to carry him through the line. A Run would (but would finish his move out in what we call the Pike Zone).

And to chip in with a bit of GM perspective - yeah, this is a ****-up. Opportunities were missed. But even if this goes maximally wrong (and Urgrim and Jarla still have a very open escape route), Corrado and his men still have Painford, Ludo and all the Thorns (not just Hanna's squad) between them and Sforza, so there is still everything to play for. Maybe consider this scene more about your characters' moral choices than their tactical ones if it makes you feel better about it.

Regarding inciting the crowd, or giving them orders, I would offer this advice: think about their motivation. They have no particular attachment to Sieghard, and to them the first thing the Thorns are is more of Sforza's soldiers. They talked a big talk about standing up to the Prince, but now they're being asked very pointedly how willing they are to die, right here and now, for their cause. They're not soldiers, they're not trained, most of them have never killed anybody before (you'd hope). All this is to say, they're going to need more than just a well-spoken 'you can do it!' to behave like a military unit. I don't know what that new motivation would look like, I leave that to you to think up if you can. If you want to ask questions about them - e.g. more information about their mood, about individuals in the crowd, about the dead and wounded etc. - feel free & don't worry about slowing down the IC, I want you to have all the information you need.

[Thragka]

Game Over Screen: Iron Company victory. Sieghard/Jarla captured (I don't think they'd try to capture Urgrim.

I think, fundamentally, I still disagree that this is the only remaining assessment if the Iron Company don’t suffer heavy losses here. It’d help me to understand your thoughts here a little more. There’s no circumstance beyond inflicting heavy losses and keeping possession of the food in which Sieghard would be willing to de-escalate or retreat from the immediate action?

I’m not saying I think it’s likely that e.g. Corrado’s first words upon regaining his faculties will be “I’ve reconsidered; let’s negotiate!” However, I read what you say as suggesting that there’s no acceptable outcome here beyond essentially winning this engagement, whatever the risk. Sieghard won’t fight a retreat from the windmill if he gets the chance and try to get the hell out of town ahead of the Iron Company contingent so we can regroup and try to move against them from a different position?

[LeSwordfish]

I don't think we've ever used fate points for auto-successes before. There's some fun additional uses for spending and burning fate in the Imperium Maledictum rulebooks, which I could dig up if that was something we wanted to investigate.

Re: the IC goings-on, I'm staying schtum because Ludo isn't here - but as with Elsa's trial, I'm a big believer in not OOC surrendering and otherwise letting the cards fall where they may. Whatever happens next will definitely be interesting!

[TheSummoner]

I think, fundamentally, I still disagree that this is the only remaining assessment if the Iron Company don’t suffer heavy losses here. It’d help me to understand your thoughts here a little more. There’s no circumstance beyond inflicting heavy losses and keeping possession of the food in which Sieghard would be willing to de-escalate or retreat from the immediate action?

I’m not saying I think it’s likely that e.g. Corrado’s first words upon regaining his faculties will be “I’ve reconsidered; let’s negotiate!” However, I read what you say as suggesting that there’s no acceptable outcome here beyond essentially winning this engagement, whatever the risk. Sieghard won’t fight a retreat from the windmill if he gets the chance and try to get the hell out of town ahead of the Iron Company contingent so we can regroup and try to move against them from a different position?

I consider it a failure if the Iron Company reaches Savonne with the food and most of their men in fighting shape. If that means falling back and regrouping before dealing with them, then that's still a victory.

Negotiating with Corrado is a non-starter. The man is a butcher and now he's one with a personal vendetta. Better to eliminate him and leave the Iron Company leaderless. Sieghard absolutely will retreat if there's no other option. I'm just not convinced we've reached that point.

[Thragka]

Okay, that's a really useful clarification, thanks. I was concerned that you/Sieghard might have been committing to a fight to the death here based on a couple of the things you said, whence my desire to immediately find a third option for resolution.

Since Urgrim's providing a point of resistance to the pike advance, at least temporarily, I can bear with him staying in place for a couple of rounds. At least a disruption in the ranks might provide Sieghard a potential route out of the square. I'm aware the Thorns won't win us the day just by turning up (if it were even that simple), but if we want to at least try to bring them in, Jarla might need to do that herself.

But since there's no rush, I'll take the opportunity to ask a couple of questions about the crowd. So, are any of that nominal peasant triumvirate visible to the PCs at this point? And if so, what are they up to? For Marien, the answer is presumably "not a lot", but can we tell how trampled she is?

[TheSummoner]

Presumably very at this point.

The timing's less than ideal, but it's Adepticon weekend and I'll be gone until Sunday. I don't think much will change Sieghard's actions though, so I'll get a post up now. In general, my thoughts for him are make sure Corrado dies and if/when the crowd breaks, get out of there.

@LCP - I don't use Discord much, but I tried to join the server and it looks like the invite expired. If you can post a new one before I leave, I'll be sure to join.. I've left now, but I'll try joining again after I get back home.

[RossN]

Fortune Point to re-roll that first attack.

(1d100)[41] vs 51

[LCP]

@LCP - I don't use Discord much, but I tried to join the server and it looks like the invite expired. If you can post a new one before I leave, I'll be sure to join.. I've left now, but I'll try joining again after I get back home.

Here you go.

[LCP]

Sorry for the long wait - site issues when I've been free the last couple of days.

Crit on Corrado: (1d100)[23] - dead

[LCP]

Dodge for the Iron Company guy: (1d100)[66]

Also, I'm very sorry I didn't spot it earlier, but RossN - Jarla is 3 yards away from the nearest Iron Company man, she cannot swift attack unless she moves into the pike thicket. I'll not assume that she does that as it may put her in what we call a Bad Place.

[LCP]

Couple more Iron Company crits: (1d100)[17], (1d100)[51]

[RossN]

Dodge for the Iron Company guy: [roll0]

Also, I'm very sorry I didn't spot it earlier, but RossN - Jarla is 3 yards away from the nearest Iron Company man, she cannot swift attack unless she moves into the pike thicket. I'll not assume that she does that as it may put her in what we call a Bad Place.

So given Jarla retroactively apparently didn't do anything that entire turn can I have it back?

[LCP]

Yes, if you want to take 2 actions now that's fine. I just thought considering how long it took me to get the IC post up, better to post it than delay any further.

[Thragka]

Oof. If we still have a little time to metagame/chat OOC during combat time – any thoughts, RossN? Jarla gets two actions and every pikeman gets a poke before Urgrim can do anything again. Urgrim isn’t too proud to drop his weapons in this scenario, and he still doesn’t want to attack one of them before one of them attacks him, but he’s also not afraid to take a stand with Jarla. We’re trying to buy Sieghard time, we’re possibly succeeding, and if we think we can get away with being a little cheekier, I’m game.

[TheSummoner]

Probably going to take quite a bit to keep them off Sieghard at this point. Looks like the options are...

1) Try to break through near the mill. The closest Iron Company men are unoccupied, but possibly still out of formation.
2) Try to break through where Urgrim and Jarla are. The Iron Company men there are most ready to stop him, but he'd have support.
3) Try to break through on one of the other sides. The Iron Company men there are still being pressed by the mob, and wouldn't be able to swing at Sieghard without exposing themselves to them.

I imagine no matter which option I go with, Sieghard has all of one round to either make it through or fail before those not otherwise occupied are able to catch up. LCP, what sort of resistance am I looking at in terms of how many men on each side would be able to charge/free attack him and what it would take to actually get past them?

[LCP]

It's about the same on all 3 sides away from the mill - close packed lines 2 deep. The mill side is looser but the only path through is into the mill - breaking out sideways would be parallel to the line so would have a lot of men in your way.

[TheSummoner]

Ok, but more specifically. If Sieghard runs for the mill, is he able to make it in without taking free attacks from the Iron Company men who were fighting near it? If Sieghard charges one of the flanks that is still fighting, are any Iron Company men in position to charge him on their following action? If he does that, what would it take for him to break through to the side where the crowd is still fighting? A strength test? A certain number of kills? Something else?

To the above questions, I mean other than the one guy Sieghard is still currently engaged with. If Sieghard moves, he's obviously in position to get his free attack in and can run/charge where Sieghard runs/charges.

[LCP]

Ok, but more specifically. If Sieghard runs for the mill, is he able to make it in without taking free attacks from the Iron Company men who were fighting near it?

No, he'll be exposed to free attacks from (1d2)[2] guys.

If Sieghard charges one of the flanks that is still fighting, are any Iron Company men in position to charge him on their following action? If he does that, what would it take for him to break through to the side where the crowd is still fighting? A strength test? A certain number of kills? Something else?

In terms of positioning, this still applies:

Regarding positioning, Sieghard can still just reach the back of the line pushing against Urgrim & Jarla with a charge move. However, he'd have to break through 2 ranks of pikemen to get through to their side. [...] he could try to push through them with a Strength test. A charge won't have enough movement to carry him through the line. A Run would (but would finish his move out in what we call the Pike Zone).

The main thing that has changed is that they're no longer unaware of him, so I'd allow them to oppose the Strength test (with a +20 for assists from their neighbours).

They cannot change weapons outside their turn, so only get free attacks if Sieghard passes through the space occupied by the business end of their pikes. With a Run move, he would trigger that for the back rank, but not the front; he'd end his move in contact with their pike line.