[WFRP] The Bloody Crown OOC XV

[rax]

I'm picturing something like this.

But with less foliage in the actual gully, I presume?

[LCP]

...that's what she said?

(yes)

[rax]

Oof.

[LCP]

I'm going to assume there's no objection to Ludo's plan.

[rax]

Just to be clear, I'm game to engage the goblins and try to rescue the sacrifices if we can come up with a very good plan to do so, but Bardhyl will need some convincing.

I'm fairly convinced that we can't actually win a straight up battle, even if we can start with an ambush, but possibly a shock and awe first strike can cause enough confusion that we could rush in and grab the sacrifices. I suspect fire - and lots of it - would be necessary for us to have a chance though (both for the grabbing and the escaping).

[LeSwordfish]

I'm off on holiday for the next week - might be able to post but I'll be on a flight for a while and then on GMT+8. or -8. one of them. As such, don't wait for me - feel free to volunteer ludo for any sneaking tasks. If we do go for the stakeout, Ludo is probably the best person to keep sticking his head over the edge so here's a Stealth check for that:

Spoiler

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[(1d100)[72] vs 94

[TheSummoner]

Probably too early for this yet, but I want to float the idea. We could try to cause a distraction (Sounds spell might be useful) and draw them out of the camp, then rush in and rescue who we can.

[-Sentinel-]

Probably too early for this yet, but I want to float the idea. We could try to cause a distraction (Sounds spell might be useful) and draw them out of the camp, then rush in and rescue who we can.

The ol' "throw a pebble in the bushes" trick? Seriously? You think that'll empty an entire goblin camp?

I also think any sneaking attempt is doomed to failure. This is an open space, and all of us except Ludo are too tall to dress up as goblins even if we had goblin hoods handy (which we don't). And since these are night goblins, waiting for nightfall would put us (not them) at a disadvantage.

I'm fairly convinced that we can't actually win a straight up battle, even if we can start with an ambush, but possibly a shock and awe first strike can cause enough confusion that we could rush in and grab the sacrifices. I suspect fire - and lots of it - would be necessary for us to have a chance though (both for the grabbing and the escaping).

This would put a nail in the coffin of diplomacy before we've even attempted it. I'd rather try diplomacy first, and resort to violence if that fails. We'd lose the advantage of surprise, but given our enemies' sheer numbers, surprise wouldn't make much of a difference anyway.

Plus, sorry to metagame, but the round-by-round combat system makes it impossible to move quickly while fighting. You have to choose one or the other.

[TheSummoner]

The ol' "throw a pebble in the bushes" trick? Seriously? You think that'll empty an entire goblin camp?

I also think any sneaking attempt is doomed to failure. This is an open space, and all of us except Ludo are too tall to dress up as goblins even if we had goblin hoods handy (which we don't). And since these are night goblins, waiting for nightfall would put us (not them) at a disadvantage.

I was thinking more of the ol' "sound of a cannon firing in the distance" trick. If you're not expecting magic (and why would they be?) that's a bit harder to fake.

I'm not opposed to attempting diplomacy (though IC Sieghard is skeptical), but you said it yourself. We don't have anything to offer.

[-Sentinel-]

I was thinking more of the ol' "sound of a cannon firing in the distance" trick. If you're not expecting magic (and why would they be?) that's a bit harder to fake.

If they think they're under attack, they'll prepare to defend their position, not rush out into the open to gawk slack-jawed at the supposed enemy bearing down on them. Any goblins they send out to investigate will make up only a small fraction of all the goblins in the gully.

Distractions are good against individual enemies, or small groups of them. Not so much against "scores".

I'm not opposed to attempting diplomacy (though IC Sieghard is skeptical), but you said it yourself. We don't have anything to offer.

Maybe we do. There's always the possibility that I floated earlier, that perhaps they're more scared of the wyvern than worshipful of it. For the sake of caution, we can couch an offer to kill it in indirect terms, e.g.: "What if you didn't have to feed the Big One anymore?"

If we're talking about an offer of material goods such as fresh meat for the wyvern, I think goblins are smart enough to grasp the concept of "we'll pay you later", though they may require hostages as proof of good faith.

Lastly, maybe Wadim (whether he's a prisoner or not) has a voice in this matter. But we don't even know if he's present.

If negotiations go south, just remember that we're dealing with cowardly goblins, not a horde of mindless zombies. We don't need to kill all of them; only enough to make the rest decide that killing or capturing us just isn't worth it. (The last time, they proved surprisingly tenacious, but to be fair, we were invading their lair.)

[rax]

Re diplomacy, what's to stop them simply capturing the lot of us and offering us as sacrifices to the wyvern? There's a lot more of them than us, and it's not unlikely that they'll prefer not to look a gift sacrifice in the mouth rather than take a chance of us actually killing the wyvern. Also, they're goblins - even if the scenario plays out as hoped, there's a decent chance they'll turn on us as soon as the wyvern is dead. I must admit, I remain sceptical of our chances of success using diplomacy.

Overall, I feel there's two factors that complicate pretty much any plan that involves directly interacting with the goblins, including my own suggestion:
1. We're heavily outnumbered - they have a very strong chance of cutting off any escape route we plan on using.
2. If we manage to get away - with or without hostages - they can just come after us. They may not like sunlight, but they're can actually operate in daylight just fine.

So, basically any plan we come up with has to solve these two issues to have a decent chance of success. If distraction in some form is part of it, the distraction must be big enough to keep them from using their number against us and keep them from getting their act together and running us down.

I do agree that waiting to move at night is not a good idea - that's will hand the goblins an even greater advantage over us. Even just doing a stake-out is basically the same as waiting for them all to wake up and become more active.

[LeSwordfish]

I think your plans for diplomacy with the goblins are pretty doomed because we don't have flashcards to explain the more complicated ideas with. I'm not at all sure that goblins en masse will be able to grasp what you're suggesting (dropping hints, really?) and any kind of boss goblin will probably order us all eaten for challenging his authority. I'm also skeptical about the "break their morale" plan - we tried that last time and IIRC LCP called it a "death march" out of character.

However! Some of the phrasing in how Wadim's journey with the goblins has been described implies to me that perhaps he's managed to become treated as a guest rather than a prisoner, in which case diplomacy might be the best way to speak to him. This is kind of why I'm suggesting a stakeout - I'm assuming if we wait long enough he'll show up.

In addition, there are so many tracks i suspect the camp may mostly empty itself out come nightfall, as everyone goes off raiding and leaves some guards behind.

[TheSummoner]

I remember before there was a suggestion of trying to capture one of the goblins alone to get information. Is there any reason that wouldn't still be on the table?

[-Sentinel-]

Re diplomacy, what's to stop them simply capturing the lot of us and offering us as sacrifices to the wyvern? There's a lot more of them than us, and it's not unlikely that they'll prefer not to look a gift sacrifice in the mouth rather than take a chance of us actually killing the wyvern.

Capturing us will require them to make a lot of sacrifices of their own. There's a reason why they choose to prey on the weak, such as isolated farmsteads or teenage girls who stray from the party's campsite. We know for a fact that they ran away from a dog, because that was more resistance than they expected to face.

Also, they're goblins - even if the scenario plays out as hoped, there's a decent chance they'll turn on us as soon as the wyvern is dead.

That's true. But if they fear the wyvern too much to kill it themselves, and we're the ones who kill it, they'll fear us even more than they feared the wyvern.

1. We're heavily outnumbered - they have a very strong chance of cutting off any escape route we plan on using.

The geography is advantageous to us. We can approach them without getting surrounded too easily.

If we manage to get away - with or without hostages - they can just come after us.

They can. But why would they? To sacrifice us to the wyvern? Put together, we have maybe about as much meat on us as two cows, and two cows are a hell of a lot easier to capture than us.

You're thinking in video game terms, where enemies keep fearlessly coming at you no matter how many you kill or how little they stand to gain from killing you.

In addition, there are so many tracks i suspect the camp may mostly empty itself out come nightfall, as everyone goes off raiding and leaves some guards behind.

A possibility, yes. At the very least, a stakeout will help us gather more information before we commit to any course of action.


I know most of you are skeptical about diplomacy, but I think infiltration or an attack (even with the advantage of surprise) have exactly zero chances of success. They're on their home turf, and they vastly outnumber us.

[LCP]

It's sounding to me like the idea of a stakeout has the broadest support. If that's the case, would you all be watching, or leave 1 or 2 watchers while the rest retreat to a safe distance?

I will say, do remember that IC your characters are holding a whispered conversation at the edge of a goblin hole, and probably aren't able to have lengthy debates!

[rax]

@Sentinel
I don't think I play the kinds of video games you're referring to. My risk assessments when evaluating means of dealing with the goblins are more based on their description in the Old World Bestiary and wider Warhammer lore concerning Greenskins. To wit:

Goblins...are, in general, a miserable treacherous race of petty thieves and vicious cutthroats... Night Goblins are essentially very similar to ordinary Goblins, though they are even more vicious.

"You've never seen anything crueler than three Goblins torturing a wounded deer that had caught its foot in their crude trap..."

"They trampled my herb garden, just for sheer devilment. I think they're even wors than Orcs - getting bullied all the time by bigger Greenskins gives them a real vindictive streak. I wanted to run out and show them the error of their ways with my staff, but there were a dozen of them and only one of me so I stayed hid in my cave."

To me, this reads as goblins being extremely violent, untrustworthy, and willing to commit acts of needless cruelty just for the sake of it. They're also not much into long term thinking (a common Greenskin trait), so they're apt to act on their baser instincts just because they see an opportunity. Are there exceptions? Yes, but that is likely to occur at leadership level and we have no way of knowing that this will apply to this particular group.

If I were a night goblin leader in the situation we're in, I'd see a small group of humans who are massively outnumbered by my warriors. If they want to talk, I'd be inclined to let them until I was ready to rush them. Why would I do that? Because I can. Because it would be eight more humans for the stewpot if I don't end up sacrificing them to the wyvern. Because it would be hilarious to torture someone bigger than me. Because we might have shiny loot - lots of reasons that make no sense to our characters, but are perfectly reasonable to the goblin mind.

As for the terrain being advantageous, I'm afraid I disagree with that. There's four walkable routes into the hollow, not counting the ravine itself. Unless Elsa can maintain multiple walls of fire at once, I don't see how we can quickly prevent the goblins from swarming out of the hollow if it comes to hostilities.

None of this means that diplomacy is impossible, but I really think we would need to have a plan to address the two points I made earlier, as well as a very strong opening offer that will convince the goblins to talk and not just come at us for the reasons outlined above. I.e. we would need to think more like goblins and less like humans to get them to listen to us.

@LeSwordfish
You may be right that a large number of the goblins will leave the hollow once night falls, but don't you find it odd that "scores" of night goblins are resting outside in daylight in the first place? There's must be some sort of cave behind where the waterfall used to be - why aren't they using it to hide from the sun? I see three possible reasons, two of which give me pause:

1. The goblin chief has appropriated the cave and isn't sharing it with anyone. Possible, and not concerning in and of itself.

2. The goblins resting outside are doing so because they're the ones who don't have enough status to be allowed behind the curtain. Ergo, there could be plenty more goblins hidden out of sight. If the outside lot do vacate the hollow come nightfall, it may just fill up with more goblins.

3. The goblins are gathered outside because this is a sacrificial site. They're waiting for the wyvern and expect it to arrive during daylight, which is why they're even bothering to hang out outside. This would mean we can't observe until nightfall and then act.

@TheSummoner
I'm currently inclined to believe that taking a prisoner is probably our best bet. It could be combined with a brief stakeout, but if that gives us no new information, we could try and draw away a small group of goblins, ambush them and try and get some firm intelligence from a prisoner or two.

@LCP
See my reply to TheSummoner above as far as a stakeout is concerned. (I.e. tentative support for a stakeout )

[RossN]

So after being sick for a while now I officially got a positive diagnosis for COVID. I'm okayish - it just feels like a really nasty cold and I'm not bedridden - but it does mean I'm struggling to keep up with a lot of stuff energy and creative wise. I'm especially annoyed because I had another bad cold from Christmas until the middle of January, followed by a bout of rib inflammation I was only just getting over.

Gah, I'm sick of be sick.

Anyway my apologies for the rant I will try and keep up with Jarla but my character posts might be pretty short for a while.

[rax]

Sorry to hear that! I had covid in January last year and it was a real pain - like the nastiest flu I've ever had. Even when it passed, I was really tired for a couple of weeks more. Hope your case is milder!

[LeSwordfish]

It's sounding to me like the idea of a stakeout has the broadest support. If that's the case, would you all be watching, or leave 1 or 2 watchers while the rest retreat to a safe distance?

I will say, do remember that IC your characters are holding a whispered conversation at the edge of a goblin hole, and probably aren't able to have lengthy debates!

My recommendation is the latter - apart from anything else, people further from the gully can keep an eye out for the Wyvern better. I would suggest Ludo stays by the edge, and Elsa is with the group that hangs back so can use a prearranged Sounds signal for "hide now" - a raven's croak, perhaps.

[rax]

In that case, Bardhyl will remain with Ludo to bodyguard him. Plus, he'll know Wadim by sight if he sees him.

@LCP
Just making sure, but Ortwin is with us, right? I think only Damjan and Afrim have been mentioned since we set out, but I did mention that Bardhyl would bring all three.

[LCP]

Yes, sorry - just me forgetting.

[rax]

@Sentinel
I'm pretty sure Elsa's supposed to be some distance from Bardhyl and Ludo. Certainly too far away to overhear a whispered conversation.

[-Sentinel-]

@Sentinel
I'm pretty sure Elsa's supposed to be some distance from Bardhyl and Ludo. Certainly too far away to overhear a whispered conversation.

Okay then, I deleted my post.

[rax]

@TheSummoner
I got a notification that you'd posted an OOC question but the post isn't there when I click on the link. Did you delete it deliberately?

[TheSummoner]

Yes. I decided since time might be a factor in the current situation anything I wanted to bring up might be better brought up IC. Right now I'm waiting on Ludo's response before going any further.

[rax]

Roger that.

I posted an IC reply to Sieghard which I intend to have happened before LCP's latest IC post, but it's not necessary for Sieghard to have responded before LCP's post.

[-Sentinel-]

"I would never suggest taking them all on - merely causing enough confusion and panic to allow a few of us to race down, free the prisoners and withdraw."

Again, sorry to get meta, but I don't think this is the kind of thing that can work in practice. Not with the numbers so firmly on the goblins' side, and certainly not under a turn-based combat system that forces you to choose between fighting or moving fast. Even the slightest amount of resistance would slow down the "recovery team" long enough for them to get surrounded. You're new to this game, rax, but we've had plenty of fights where we were outnumbered, and believe me when I say that in such a fight, the party's mobility is the first casualty.

If we try parlay first, we still leave open the possibility of resorting to violence instead. Whereas using violence right away would reduce to zero our chances of talking things out.

[rax]

I'm aware of how the combat system works. Why are you assuming that everyone down in the hollow would be fighting, instead of divvying up the work so that some fight - if necessary - and one or more move/cut down the prisoners?

And, again, you are assuming that the goblins will react by surrounding/attacking/hindering the recovery team. Earlier, you pointed out that a numerically superior patrol of goblins ran away from a large dog, but now you seem convinced that these goblins - deprived of leadership and with fire magic bombarding them - will react en masse to prevent the rescue, rather than panicking long enough to give a rescue a chance. I simply don't agree with your risk assessment.

Obviously the plan Bardhyl is proposing is extremely risky, but if your feeling is that only negotiation can get us anywhere, then I think Elsa had better make a very strong case for how to do that with a reasonable chance of success.

[-Sentinel-]

And, again, you are assuming that the goblins will react by surrounding/attacking/hindering the recovery team. Earlier, you pointed out that a numerically superior patrol of goblins ran away from a large dog, but now you seem convinced that these goblins - deprived of leadership and with fire magic bombarding them - will react en masse to prevent the rescue, rather than panicking long enough to give a rescue a chance.

They were driven away by a dog because the dog wasn't the one attacking them in their own settlement. There's a big difference between them coming at us, and us coming at them. In the former case, we force them to decide who among them will be the first up the metaphorical ladder. In the latter case, we're the ones climbing the ladder, and they're the ones dropping rocks and boiling pitch on us.

Our best bet, IMO, is to give them three options: 1. negotiate with us, 2. snarl at us threateningly until we go away, 3. fight us.

An unprovoked attack would give them one option: 1. fight us.

[TheSummoner]

As I see it...

If we try to negotiate, we need something that would keep them from immediately trying to tie us to the wyvern effigy with the others. Without that, we're in a fight regardless and it's starting on less favorable terms. That's not to say that diplomacy couldn't work, only that it needs some sort of leverage and no one has proposed any.

If we all just move up the the ledge and start shooting right now, we're not going to free the prisoners. The goblins aren't going to all scatter. Some of them will fire back on us with their bows and be unlikely to do much due to how elevated we are, but others will start swarming out. We'll have some time where we can attack and they can basically do nothing, but the clock will be ticking and the moment they can bring their numbers against us, we lose. We have to run before that happens. Maybe we can kill their leader before he knows he's under attack. Maybe we can thin their numbers. Neither saves the prisoners and neither prevents us from having to retreat.

If we attack, then we have to make it count and that's where I was going with the IC comment about drawing them away. Ludo and Bardhyl are both pretty good at keeping themselves hidden. Instead of everyone blasting, the two of them get closer and find a good place to hide. Let Sieghard, Elsa, and Jarla be the distraction for them. Some of the goblins we can pick off, some will make for the caves and cover, and others will come after us. We keep the pressure on them for a bit and then we leg it. While that's going on, Ludo and Bardhyl would have a hopefully empty, or at least much depleted goblin camp to worry about and can try to free the prisoners. It's not perfect by any means, but it'd be better than just going Rambo on them.

Edit: Looked over the character sheets. Jarla has Silent Move as well.