The Royal Artificery Society - OOC II: electric boogaloo

[DeTess]

Alright, set the scene up to keep things rolling. Don't worry if you still want to post some things to round off the other scene.

[DeTess]

@windstruck, wrong ooc chat :P

The budget was 12,500 gp. I could have sworn you guys had done a full breakdown on costs involved, but can't find it. If either of you can find it that's fine, otherwise, based on what I could find, you made about 6500 gp of costs for materials, and could pocket however much you charge over that as reward.

Edit: marked price down as I found some more info in the old ooc thread

[WindStruck]

Oh wrong thread? Ooops!

Well anyway. When we craft items in d&d, usually it's like, "pay half the cost of the item" to make the item, so generally speaking, I think if we spent 6500 gp, then the violin would probably be marketed at 13,000?

It's probably fair to ask for 12,000 gp then I guess.

[MrAbdiel]

Sounds good to me.

To Aiden, who has very little sense for haggling at all... It also sounds good, and would have if you had named almost any number.

[WindStruck]

Regarding split payments. We might quibble about hours spent or material costs (or at least Shandara anyway).

But I think we can maybe look at it this way.. we should both be profiting by an equal amount. Example: if Shandara had to pay 6000 gp in magical materials, and Aiden had to pay 500 gp in terms of the wood (doubt that) and renting the tools (also I think this was free or inexpensive), then in this example, Shandara gets reinbursed the 6000 gp, and Aiden gets reinbursed the 500 gp. So they're pretty much even and we've covered the base material cost. Then, if we let the violin go for 12,000 gp,

12000
-6500
5500

Divide that final figure by two, getting 2750 gp. To simplify things, this is how much we add to our bank account balances.

However, just pointing out, that by the above example using material costs, it technically means Shandara is paid 8750 gp, and Aiden is paid 3250 gp. So I think it's accurate for RP reasons Shandara gets paid more. But to be fair, we both profit the same amount: 2750 gp.

Sound gucci?

[MrAbdiel]

Regarding split payments. We might quibble about hours spent or material costs (or at least Shandara anyway).

But I think we can maybe look at it this way.. we should both be profiting by an equal amount. Example: if Shandara had to pay 6000 gp in magical materials, and Aiden had to pay 500 gp in terms of the wood (doubt that) and renting the tools (also I think this was free or inexpensive), then in this example, Shandara gets reinbursed the 6000 gp, and Aiden gets reinbursed the 500 gp. So they're pretty much even and we've covered the base material cost. Then, if we let the violin go for 12,000 gp,

12000
-6500
5500

Divide that final figure by two, getting 2750 gp. To simplify things, this is how much we add to our bank account balances.

However, just pointing out, that by the above example using material costs, it technically means Shandara is paid 8750 gp, and Aiden is paid 3250 gp. So I think it's accurate for RP reasons Shandara gets paid more. But to be fair, we both profit the same amount: 2750 gp.

Sound gucci?

Hahah,yeah, that's alright. I assumed cost of materials would be subtracted before we split the rest. For a second, I thought Shandara was going to try a "well, magic is much harder than woodworking so perhaps 60/40..." ;)

[DeTess]

The letters of credit cover the divison of costs as mentioned above. You can have them added to your account if you have one, or turned into gold at any of the banks in the city.

[DeTess]

@windstruck, for other people you might know that could help out, you remember a guy called Zacharias (former PC, but obviously still exists as an NPC) who somehow managed to brew a drink containing memories, so especially the psychic approaches might be right up his alley.

Otherwise, you know of an elf who has been working in the field of divination called Arud Erna. He has done some work with various banks designing tracking and marking spells for high-value objects, but you've heard he's been working in other fields as well, and seems pretty knowledgeable, form what you've heard and read. He's a friend of Fenlho though (and therefore very much not one of Shandara), but surely such personal grievances won't stop Shandara from suggesting him, right? :P

@windstruck @mrabdiel, regarding the spiritwood, I don't mind there being an IC conflict over it, but please do talk it out OOC if there's an actual disagreement between the two of you over it, rather than just an IC squabble.

[WindStruck]

Hopefully there's not an actual hard disagreement over the spirit wood. I'll just point out that:

1) I'm actually planning to do something with it next, and don't have other plans...

2) Shandara is the one who paid for it.

3) There was no actual agreement, verbal or otherwise, to share it.

4) We can probably expect more spirit wood arriving sometime later in game time.. though in pbp a few months could be years in real life.


edit: yeah, I am rather confused by this whole notion of, "I own it," said so confidently. This is said by the guy who only had 100/800 gp to buy it, not even counting expense of the other wood he was interested in buying. He offered that he could try to get a loan, but again, nothing was ever concretely agreed upon. The wood seller never agreed to hold the wood, nor sell it on promise of a loan, nor say explicitly he was selling to Aiden.

Either way: I'm all for experimenting with the wood (again, this is what I am about to do now that other plots are resolved). I'm all for keeping Aiden in the loop and involved. But I do want control/ownership of it because what I want to do primarily is attempt to make wands out of it, not cups, flutes, and drum sticks.

[MrAbdiel]

Hopefully there's not an actual hard disagreement over the spirit wood. I'll just point out that:

1) I'm actually planning to do something with it next, and don't have other plans...

2) Shandara is the one who paid for it.

3) There was no actual agreement, verbal or otherwise, to share it.

4) We can probably expect more spirit wood arriving sometime later in game time.. though in pbp a few months could be years in real life.


edit: yeah, I am rather confused by this whole notion of, "I own it," said so confidently. This is said by the guy who only had 100/800 gp to buy it, not even counting expense of the other wood he was interested in buying. He offered that he could try to get a loan, but again, nothing was ever concretely agreed upon. The wood seller never agreed to hold the wood, nor sell it on promise of a loan, nor say explicitly he was selling to Aiden.

Either way: I'm all for experimenting with the wood (again, this is what I am about to do now that other plots are resolved). I'm all for keeping Aiden in the loop and involved. But I do want control/ownership of it because what I want to do primarily is attempt to make wands out of it, not cups, flutes, and drum sticks.

It’s possible we have an OOC disagreement about that scene, but we don’t have a squabble, that’s for sure. We’re cool.

I read and reread the old posts to be sure, because I know I took it OOC as a loan Aiden would pay back. That’s why he says he owns it - on the basis that Shandara was loaning him the money for the purchase, not leaning in to swipe the sale from under him.

Furthermore, I think that was probably understood at the time of the post. Aiden asks for time to get a loan, Shandara says she’ll cover it and whatever Aiden wants, he thanks her profusely and says he’s good for the money. She doesn’t reply directly, but you did post her immediate thought following - “He’d better pay me back.”

If she’s decided after the fact to change the conditions of that arrangement, because she sees more value in the purchased object than the loan, she’s sharking him. I can’t see anything that changes that fact. She might feel justified in doing so, and may have convinced herself after the fact that it was her purchase with Aiden running alongside; but the written reality of the scene was that he needed a loan, she covered the loan, and she ruminated on her expectation for him to pay her back.

The legal reality is that she put down the money and, after she told Aiden to leave it with her, it’s in her house. Even if Aiden was litigious it would be hard to get around that. Perhaps he could drag master Dunfen in as a witness, but it’s shaky.

But with that concession, Aiden isn’t upset at the prospect of losing the nifty wood as much as he sees Shandara going back on their agreement; and Aiden doesn’t really have many gears to deal with what feels like an (admittedly mild) betrayal of trust.

If Shandara remains convinced she is the owner of the wood, that there was no loan stated or implied, and that Aiden has no grounds to expect any part of it at all, he can’t really do anything about that. He’ll just be hurt.

[WindStruck]

There weren't any agreements, and she isn't "sharking" him. It is true, she may have thought the transaction seemed like a loan at that moment, but the fact is that nothing was ever explicitly said in the matter. You can't possibly be going back on any agreements when agreements were never made in the first place. This is simply a case of Aiden hearing (or perhaps you as a player reading) what he wants to hear. If this was behavior of a loan shark, I would be explicitly making a loan, then demanding huge, untimely interest payments. Those are the facts.

Take a look at the scene immediately after where we go to Lady Orlof to inquire about the wood, and any ambiguity in intentions is already cleared up. In that scene, given the very short supply of it, with them having the last piece (a pretty small one by the way) Shandara expresses interest in crafting wands with it and some careful experimentation. Meanwhile Aiden is still wanting to attempt to craft a violin out of it. At that point, Shandara puts her foot down and says, "I purchased it," and she does offer to sell it to Aiden then and there. Which he doesn't, of course, because he still doesn't have that money, nor has he gotten a loan from an actual loan shark.

[MrAbdiel]

Look, I retract the use of the term 'sharking' because I don't think Shandara is doing this maliciously. I apologize. This is probably as simple as you and I having a different mental picture of some of the spaces in the purchase scene.

I definitely don't think that following scene cleared up ambiguity; that's just where it became clear we in possession of ambiguity. I played Aiden as baffled and hurt then but I didn't want to bog us down and I didn't think Aiden had the social fortitude to make the argument. I've gone back through and... written a frankly too long post, in the spoiler below, about how it all seems to me. Read or don't, as you prefer.

Spoiler: Events as best I can tell.

Show

The wood's ownership goes through a quiet transition from "Shandara loaned Aiden the money to buy it" to "Since Shandara put the money down, she also partially owns it atleast until Aiden buys her out", finally now till "Shandara owns it entirely and has no interest in Aiden owning any part of it". It's this movement that I can't square.

1. In #1193, Aiden offers to buy it from Victor. He asks him to hold it until he can go out and get some kind of short term loan he expects to be repaid when his work designing the ships pays a dividend. Shandara says she can cover the payment with a short trip to the bank, in #1194. In #1195, Aiden is profusely thankful, pledges to pay her back. In #1197, Shandara buys the materials, and thinks "He had better pay me back".

2. In #1213 during the meeting with Lady Orlof, Shandara states that it's too risky to use the Spirit Wood experimentally into an instrument, and asks how he would feel about turning it into a stack of wands instead. Aiden pushes back in #1216 mostly because he just wants to see if he can accomplish that feat of craftsmanship. Shandara puts her foot down in #1219. She reminds him that she purchased it - a factual reality - because he wasn't able to pay on the spot. She offers for him to repay her. At this point, Shandara is asserting decision making power over the wood, even if she offers for him to repay immediately to resolve the problem. There is a sense of awkward mutual ownership now. Aiden is sullen and withdrawn in #1220 because his read of the situation - that he had taken a loan from her but the wood was ultimately his to tinker with - has proven not to be shared. In #1221 Shandara internally speculates about the spirit wood simply being too valuable to her personal goals to concede to use in the violin. She feels a little bad that Aiden is upset, but business is business. In #1222, Aiden backs off the point and changes the subject. In #1233 and #1234, they talk briefly about experimenting with the wood further. Aiden's presumption at this point is that they are operating as partners in the wood's future, and when he gets around to repaying her, he will be repaying her some portion of the total.

3. All the way down in #1462, the violin gets made from Tundra Oak and that job is resolved. Now that Aiden is liquid again, he offers to compensate her, just as he said he would, for the money she fronted for the spiritwood before. In #1463, Shandara tells him he is not an equal partner in the venture. She tells Aiden that he might have thought she implied partnership, and that she might indeed have considered it so, but then changed her mind and now considers herself full owner of the piece with no repayment pending at all. She offers to contract him for labor in some element of its future, instead. Aiden pushes back in #1464, asserting that she loaned him the gold and was expecting repayment. In this most recent post, #1465, Shandara contends that she only ever offered to cover the payment for the wood, and that she never agreed that this was a loan in any arrangement.

* * * * *

So here's where we are. Rereading everything in detail again, I can see Shandara's perspective, I think. Tell me if I misunderstand because I'm very keen to have this squashed.

She wants the wood to kickstart her wand/magic shop. She put the money down when they were speculatively buying resources for the violin, and when it worked out they weren't going to use the spirit wood, it became hers. Maybe Aiden might have liked it to experiment with in some other way - but that decision would be Shandara's, and she's made it. She's not here to make him feel put out, but it is what it is.

I think this might just be a Drow Vs Bumpkin culture clash. Shandara is from a world where given word and handshake deals and that sort of soft, trusting lending doesn't exist. Only a fool would wander along with the assumption that someone else is seeking to operate in your best interest.

Aiden is from a much simpler environment where you leave your door unlocked and you never let a stranger sleep outside, and all that folksy stuff. The fact that he had expressed a desire to purchase the spirit wood right away, and that Shandara elected to cover it, and that he had pledged to pay her back, was all he needed to take this as her literally covering the cost of his purchase and expecting repayment.

If Shandara was cognizant that she was purchasing the wood for entirely for herself, and that Aiden was not becoming even a part owner of it, this is the place where Aiden, perhaps naively, might have expected a friend to make that clear, while he was offering gratitude for a loan he was vocally promising to pay back.

If this is some kind of worldview clash, I can handle that. Aiden will be sad and frustrated about that but he'll live. But if you're trying to tell me that this was never anything like a loan, and that Aiden saying "I'll pay you back" and Shandara thinking and speaking about "Repayment" doesn't imply a loan pending repayment, then I need help here because I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[WindStruck]

I mean, I've already re-read the scenes myself... But I'd say your synopsis is correct.

A few other corrections though:

She put the money down when they were speculatively buying resources for the violin

She wasn't buying it for the violin. You could argue it was speculative buying, but she intended it more for experimentation. Either way, buying the spirit wood was an investment, and probably a gamble, but one she was willing to make based on potential future prospects. Again, she had a genuine interest in purchasing it for herself as well.

Shandara is from a world where given word and handshake deals and that sort of soft, trusting lending doesn't exist.

Actually, that's not true either. There's no reason verbal contracts and handshake deals wouldn't exist in Drow society. The reality is that they do exist aplenty, in fact far more than any sort of written contracts. But what you have to watch out for is the backstabbing, be it by deception, ghosting, or literal knives in the back. The world of drow are full of backroom deals, as well as common agreements to make society and goods go round. But it's also overflowing with treachery, and therefore paranoia. In any case, I must point out again that no verbal agreement was made. At all.

It is true, that Shandara did not respond to Aiden when he was thanking her for a loan. Perhaps a misstep on my part, or perhaps it would be more in character to simply try and let the matter slide. More likely, as I've had her say, she simply changed her mind.

So there we have it. I'll admit I may have been in the mindset of a loan at the time, but I've changed my mind. Thinking something doesn't mean there is a promise behind it to another person. I will still hold that there was no agreement, and you will never change my mind otherwise. But if we're going along with, "it seemed like" or "that's what you implied at the time" I'm down with it.

- - - - - -

Maybe exact ownership of the wood isn't QUITE the crux of the issue here. What does Aiden plan to do with it if he owned it fully? What does he plan to do with it if the two owned it 50/50?

Let's suppose we had some convoluted situation where Aiden actually did own the wood, or owned it 50/50, but then decides sell it to Shandara. Would Aiden be opposed to just selling it to her? I'm not saying the former is the case, but I am pointing out that the current situation we have is very similar, with Shandara having ownership of it currently.

I think you know what Shandara plans to do with the wood already. But here is why she would want complete ownership of it:
1) She wants to take no chance of it being wasted on an unworthy endeavor. To her, that's anything with a high chance of failure and little learned from it.
2) She does want to turn as much wood as possible into wands.
3) She'll be doing the majority of work, with all the magical research, and then enchanting the wands, which are not cheap. This does not come across as anything close to a 50/50 partnership in her eyes, and as far as she is concerned, once she has the spells worked out to facilitate with cutting the wood, she could hire just about any other artisan.

[MrAbdiel]

Okay, this is a relief to read. I thought I was going crazy. Boiled down, Aiden has a naïve belief in implied things being binding, and Shandara is more rational expecting people to be explicit about things they expect to be binding. This is fine; my growing despair was that we had an OOC disagreement on what words were in front of my eyes, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

As for intentions with the spirit wood, Aiden basically has none. He has a small experimental project for about two fingers worth of it. That's all! Ironically, if Shandara was the kind of person to have asked outright "can I have this it's very important to me" he'd probably fall all over himself trying to accommodate. It's really just the mismatch of expectation and outcome.

[WindStruck]

Okay, this is a relief to read. I thought I was going crazy. Boiled down, Aiden has a naïve belief in implied things being binding, and Shandara is more rational expecting people to be explicit about things they expect to be binding. This is fine; my growing despair was that we had an OOC disagreement on what words were in front of my eyes, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

As for intentions with the spirit wood, Aiden basically has none. He has a small experimental project for about two fingers worth of it. That's all! Ironically, if Shandara was the kind of person to have asked outright "can I have this it's very important to me" he'd probably fall all over himself trying to accommodate. It's really just the mismatch of expectation and outcome.

Well unfortunately, though Drow Shandara may be, I don't think she has learned how to subtly manipulate Aiden or other people like that. And I'll be honest. It's probably best for everyone if she doesn't learn.

(but yes, this wood does feel very important to her)

[DeTess]

@mrabdiel, banks can mostly be glossed over as long as they're only keeping your money. Since rather large sums tend to change hands it's a way to handle that without having to go too deep into logistics. You probably have an account with one bank or another which runs you a handful of gold pieces a year to maintain. They will only come up in more detail if I do a bank-related commission or you need a loan or something.

[MrAbdiel]

Works for me! The saga of the violin is concluded then. Aiden plans to swing by the Dunfen woodyards on his way home and see if Victor happens to have some shred of spiritwood 'in the back' somewhere; just a stick or a small offcut will do for Aiden's purposes. If not, he'll express an interest in such a piece when it comes in, and then not think about it for a while!

Next task: completing that masterwork harp to submit to the Archduchess as proof of skill for his art commission hopes. That's approximately a week of work, less with some good rolls. But I'll cool my jets and not spiral off into another timeline again.

[DeTess]

What's your plan exactly for the bit of spiritwood?

[WindStruck]

If anyone is likely to have little shreds of the spirit wood left, maybe the Battlemage academy?!

Honestly, they don't seem the type to mess around with.. but hey, Aiden's a friendly and open chap if I ever saw one. What could go wrong?

[MrAbdiel]

Spoiler: Secret Project, for GM Eyes Only

Show

Aiden is going to use the little scraps to make a gift for Shandara - a set of spectacles. He's noticed that she squints in daylight and seems to struggle in bright surroundings, so his plan is to get some 'smoked glass' with a nice dark tint for lenses, make some frames from finely sanded and shaped scraps of spirit wood, and maybe consult with the cranky dwarven tinker about a tiny set of hinges for the arms to fold away. Fundamentally it's a small, nonmagically woodworking project (though if later on Shandara wants to enchant them to be something better then maybe the Spirit Wood would make that more affordable). And they're just flat lenses, not corrective; so Aiden's minimal investment in Craft: Glass may be enough to cut and shape those lenses. Standard eyeglasses cost 5GP on the SRD, so it might not be a large investment timewise or cashwise!

[DeTess]

Alright, clear enough. You can set up a scene to drop by Dunfen whenever to see if they have some left.

[DeTess]

@mrabdiel, could you roll me your choice of spellcraft or knowledge arcana? If you have neither, you can substitute craft (jewelry) if you have it. Either way you can finish your project in an evening without issues.

[MrAbdiel]

Oh no! Another roll! :O

Well, you can decide if the craft roll was routine enough for a take ten, in which case I'd use my inexplicable luck for this roll, here, for an additional +8. Otherwise, it's just this roll: Spellcraft - (1d20+7)[19]

[WindStruck]

Are we done with the scene with Captain Tar?

[DeTess]

Are we done with the scene with Captain Tar?

I think you've missed my response to your most recent post there. In other words: yes, almost, but there's a mystery box now.

@mrabdiel, yes, you can use your inexplicable luck there. You feel confident that you've managed to preserve the veins of crystal properly in the final product, allowing for high enchanting capacity.

[WindStruck]

You're right, I did miss it!

[MrAbdiel]

Time for a new IC thread, I think; we're on the legendary page 50!

[DeTess]

Yes, I'll create the new thread once Shandara's current scene is over.

[DeTess]

@windstruck, what's your caster level?

For the spell, something that makes wood and only wood completely invisible would be rather tricky. Far from impossible, but if all you want to do is see where the crystal veins are there are easier ways to do so.

Spellcraft roll of 34 does get you a decent portion of the way there though if you want to do the invisible wood approach, but it'll likely end up second level unless you spend a lot of time optimizing it afterwards.

[WindStruck]

Shandara is 6th level magewright, but 2nd level wizard