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2023-06-06, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
This post is my opinion. Feel free to disagree with it, and even comment your own lists. This is focused on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, but if you want to include an other list, feel free to do so.
The purpose of this List is to help (mainly new) players who want to play an Arcane Caster find better picks for their Spells. I consider this extra helpful for Spellcasters who have a limited list of spells Known, especially Sorcerers. The lists are in no particular order.
Spoiler: Level 0 Spells (Cantrips).
Not a whole lot of spells to choose from here, but here goes.
1) Mage Hand: Telekinesis has a ton of utility. Even as limited as a cantrip, it's great.
2) Prestidigitation: Practically Wish as a cantrip. Tons of utility, as long as you are creative.
3) Detect Magic: Cheap solution to Detecting Magic.
4) Ghost Sound: As most people know, your creativity can make this into one of the best things ever.
5) Resistance: +1 bonus on saves? Great until you get an item that provides you with a better resistance bonus.
6) Disrupt Undead: Undead can be troublesome at low levels, and 1d6 damage to them as a Ray is not bad at all.
7) Acid Splash: It might be only 1d3, but it's a ranged touch attack that denies Spell Resistance. At low levels, it's a good alternative to using a bow when out of higher level spell slots, and at higher levels you might give it some Metamagic effects (Fell Drain for example) to make it relevant.
8) Mending: Mending is a fantastic spell. IMO it would still be worth it as a 1st or even 2nd level spell.
9) Message: For when you want to discuss stuff like dethroning the king
10) Detect Poison: Very good cantrip, and depending on the campaign it might save your life.
Honorary Mentions:
Daze: Fantastic at low levels, but unfortunatelly useless after you hit your 5th level.
Light: Someone is bound to carry a torch; Very good if underwater though. But since not everyone has Darkvision in 3.5 it might save you some money on torches.
Spoiler: Level 1 Spells
1) Mage Armor: I wouldn't call Mage Armor a good Spell; I'd call it Essential. Even if you're no front liner, Bows, Rays and other stuff are bount to target you eventually, and having a half decent AC never hurts.
2) Shield: A good addition to your AC.
3) Magic Missile: A level 1 spell that hits multiple times. The autohit is just a bonus. Combined with the right metamagic, this can deal some pain.
4) Lesser Orb of Sound: Not a lot of things are resistant to Sonic. Ranged Touch Attack. No spell Resistance. What else do you want as a 1st level spell?
5) Nerveskitter: Playing First is essential for a Mage. Place that Fireball before everyone gets in melee, Buff the Fighter etc.
6) Strength of the True Form: A great Investment for Latter, when you PAO/Shapechange yourself into a Dragon/Solar and then Change Shape into your Humanoid Form again.
7) Charm Person: Excelent if you're the face of the group. Still great if you're not.
8) Grease: Have fun hitting me when you can't stand up. Arguably a good way to initiate an AoE; Grease is flamable, right?
9) Disguise Self: Good for infiltrations and other RP aspects.
10) Silent Image: Be creative is all you need to make this one of the best spells of the game.
Honorary Mentions:
Sleep: Practically a Save or Die at level 1; Won't be useful for long, but it's worth taking at low levels.
Magic Aura: Situational but useful.
Throw Voice: You have Ghost Sound for that, and for a cheaper spell slot.
Identify: Because you want to know right away what your new magic item does, don't you? Only reason it's not on the list is because it feels like a Spell Tax, and you only need 20 more gp than the spell costs to have it cast by someone.
Enlarge/Reduce Person: Great for buffing the Fighter/Rogue respectivelly.
Feather Fall: Situational, but might save your life one day.
Spoiler: Level 2 Spells
1) Ghoul Touch: A Save or Die at 2nd Level? Yes please. Just remember to tell your Fighter to Coup De Grace the poor victim before the duration ends. Depending on the type of enemies you face, you face, this might be relevant for a long time. Just remember it's humanoid only, and arguably it doesn't work on Elves.
2) Glitterdust: Invisibility can be a trouble until your party gets true sight. And blinding opponents is fun too.
Cloud of Knives: Is persistable, and can include some other fun metamagics to play with, like Fell Drain if you have some way to apply it (Incantatrix comes to mind).
3) Summon Swarm: Swarms are a touch opponent at low levels, and keep being useful at high levels.
4) Detect Thoughts: One of the best spells in the Game.
5) Hideous Laughter: Save or Suck. Great control spell at a low level cost.
6) Blindness/Deafness: Blinded opponenst can't hit you.
7) Rope Trick: Poor Man's Magnificent Mansion.
8) Alter Self: Tons of Utility. Fly? Check. Swim Speed? Check. Climb Speed? Check. Useful in infiltrations? Check. Great Spell? Check.
9) Baleful Transposition: Picture this: The enemy runs past the Fighter, and Attacks you. What do you do? Well, you switch places with the fighter.
10) Command Undead: If you plan to double as a Necromancer, and don't intend to turn yourself Undead, this spell can ensure your creations won't eat you.
Honorary Mentions:
Stat Buffing Spells: I assume you will have access to items that give an enhancment bonus to your Main Stat in your game. Otherwise, those spells are a great way to buff yourself and your allies and are essential in getting those items made for you.
Spoiler: Level 3 Spells
1) Haste: Buffing the Fighter is one of the Best ways to win.
2) Shrink Item: Fun to play with. Shring a Big Boulder, toss it over your opponent's heads and say the word for example. Also a great way to deal with Antimagic Field Users.
3) Phantom Steed: Need a Horse? You have this spell, that just gets better as you level up.
4) Displacement: Because you have a d4 HD and you can't afford to be hit.
5) Shivering Touch: Also famous as the spell that fells dragons. Maximise it for paralizing virtually any target in the game.
6) Magic Circle against X: It's a good spell on it's own, but it's true glory comes from synergy with the Planar Binding Line of spells.
7) Slow: Great Debuff.
8) Keen Edge: Great Buff and allows you to make a weapon Keen.
9) Magic Weapon, Greater: Good Buff if your DM is stingy with Magic Items.
10) Dispel Magic: Ongoing spells your enemy casts are a liability. Deny them their AoE or Summon.
Spoiler: Level 4 Spells
1) Polymorph: I think of polymorph as having the Monster Manuals as a new Magic System for your Character.
2) Black Tentacles: One of my favorite Spells. Control and Damage in the same spell.
3) Ray Deflection: Immunity to Ranged Touch Attacks? Awesome.
4) Dimensional Anchor: Denying teleporting Foes their mobility advantage is awesome, plus it has synergy with the Planar Binding Line of Spells.
5) Dimension Door: Battle Teleportation is Awesome.
6) Ruin Delver's Fortune: Pretend you're a Paladin.
7) Orb of X: Pick your Favorite Element, and thow it as a Ranged Touch Attack.
8) Solid Fog: Solid Battlefield Control.
9) Animate Dead: Your first "Necromancer/Minionmancer in a Can" spell.
10) Invisibility, Greater: The Perfect Buff.
Spoiler: Level 5 Spells
1) Dimension Shuffle: Great Control Spell.
2) Dimension Jumper: Escape Grapples and great mobility in general.
3) Cloudkill: Amazing Spell for dealing with big amounts of creatures.
4) Major Creation: It's great Utility.
5) Planar Binding, Lesser: Have a look at the monster manual, and choose what you want as an ally.
6) Wall of Stone: Amazing Battlefield Control. I like it over Wall of Force, as you can shape it however you want.
7) Fabricate: Craft stuff quickly, the spell.
8) Overland Flight: Deny most melee bruisers the oportunity to hit you all day, every day.
9) Arcane Fussion: Cast two Spells with 1 Casting. Sorcerer Only, but great potential.
10) Summon Undead V: You can Summon Allips. Enough Said.
Honorary Mentions:
Vitriolic Sphere: If you're into Blasting, Vitriolic Sphere is an AMAZING spell. It's SR: No, Instantaneus, and can even hurt Golems.
Spoiler: Level 6 Spells
1) Contigiency: Can be used with great synergy.
2) Dispel Magic, Greater: For the same reasons Dispel Magic is Great.
3) Starmantle: One of the most broken spells in the game. Ask for DM permission before you use it. Combine with Ruin Delvers Fortune for Virtual Immunity to Weapon Damage.
4) Antimagic Field: If you can somehow Grapple, this is a Mage Killer. Even if not, it's still great for protecting your allies against Mages.
5) Planar Binding: Great for the same reasons as the Lesser Version.
6) Create Undead: Careful, they bite.
7) Summon Monster VI: You have a lot of options at this level, plus don't forget you have some options that can smite as well.
8) Legend Lore: Learn a lot of useful Stuff.
9) True Seeing: Effectively cancel out an entire school of magic.
10) Circle of Death: A Massive Save or Die Spell.
Spoiler: Level 7 Spells
1) Arcane Spellsurge: Who Needs "Quicken Spell"? Sorcerers Love it. Combined with Arcane Fussion, you can cast up to 4 spells per turn.
2) Teleport, Greater: No off-chance and able to go anywere on the same plane.
3) Scrying, Greater: Ever heard of Scry and Fry tactics?
4) Limited Wish: It's awesome for it's Utility.
5) Forcecage: Save or Suck for a Boss Fight.
6) Finger of Death: Save or Die.
7) Plane Shift: Think of all the Shopping.
8) Banishment: A lot of High Level Enemies are Extraplanar.
9) Simulacrum: Pick a Creature, and make a duplicate as your Pet.
10) Greater Arcane Sight: Knowlage is power.
Spoiler: Level 8 Spells
1) Arcane Fussion, Greater: More Powerful spells, and, as written, you can put the lesser version inside the greater version.
2) Celerity, Greater: The single most powerful spell in the entire game. Lets you Deny anyone else the oportunity to play before you. Ask DM permission to use.
3) Polymorph Any Object: This spell is broken, abusable and I love it.
4) Mind Blank: Effectivelly Blocks 2 Schools of Magic; Enchantment and Divination, as well as similar effects.
5) Create Greater Undead: If you hadn't figured already, I'm a huge fan of Necromancy/Minionmancy.
6) Clone: Because death is permanent.
7) Maze: Don't use on a Minautaur though.
8) Incendiary Cloud: Great for stacking time stop damage sources.
9) Summon Monster VIII: You can summon a lot of lower level options, and the leveled options are amazing.
10) Greater Shadow Evocation: Gives you a lot of Blasting options in just 1 spell.
Spoiler: Level 9 Spells
1) Gate: Virtually any moster is yours to command. Conjure a Solar, Pit Fiend, Balor or anything else you might want. Bonus, the transportation to other Planes. And, if you Conjure the right thing, it might be compelled to perform the Wish Spell for you, at a much lower cost.
2) Wish: Any Spell of lower Level you might want is yours, at some XP cost.
3) Time Stop: Lots of things you can do in still time.
4) Shapechange: Too powerful to miss.
5) Metero Swarm: Gives an other Dimension to AoE Damage.
6) Energy Drain: Negative Levels are the best debuff for non-undead enemies.
7) Etherealness: Useful when you want to ethereal travel.
8) Dominate Monster: Make any Monster (That's not immune to Mind Affecting) your Pet.
9) Prismatic Sphere: Excelent Deffensive Spell.
10) Mage's Disjunction: While the spell is a Nuke, it has the downside of destroying your loot.Last edited by Asmotherion; 2023-06-06 at 03:30 PM.
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2023-06-06, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Level 9 spells
Maw of Chaos > Meteor Swarm in most cases.
Energy Drain is pretty meh since it's like Twin Enervation. I'd pick something like Absorption instead, which is a unique effect.
Etherealness is often a trap since you have less visibility than creatures with See Invisibility on the prime plane. Perhaps Mindrape instead?
It's worth noting that Timestop removes the disadvantage of Disjunction.
Level 8 spells:
Veil of Undeath gives comprehensive immunities.
Ghostform makes you immune to nonmagical attack.
Mystic Shield negates magical attacks.
Greater Planeshift replaces two L7 spells.
I'd drop Clone (use Wish instead), Maze (Mindrape instead), and Incendiary Cloud (Maw of Chaos instead).
Level 7:
Necrotic Tumor would let you drop Dominate Monster.
Finger of Expulsion is typically better than Finger of Death since there are fewer immune critters.
Avasculate is a pretty unique effect.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2023-06-06, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
For level 2 spells, I think Combust is the best. 10d8 damage for a second-level spell slot is pretty good damage.
This does come with downsides, like being a touch attack, being SR: Yes, and being fire element, but those are easily fixed with feats and metamagic and it's easy to make a build based around this specific spell.
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2023-06-06, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Why no Mystul magic aura? It is basically mandatory for allowing a rogue to sneak at all (else people and magical devices can detect the magical auras of the items of the rogue).
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2023-06-06, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Are you excluding Sorcerer only spells on purpose here?
Because I feel (Greater) Arcane Fusion is one if not the most important spell for a Sorcerer.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2023-06-06, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
I think that ray of enfeeblement should be on the first level list. With a ranged touch attack and no saving throw, it is ridiculous against bruisers, and combined with anything else that does strength damage, it's almost as good as shivering touch.
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2023-06-06, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
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2023-06-06, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-06-06, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Most things can't actually do anything about an ethereal character, and you can always just hide inside/behind solid objects. It's not the most amazing. Of course you could just use shapechange as something like a phase spider, Or just Gate yourself to the Ethereal Plane (though that's probably not worth it since you'd need a second to get back)
Maze is no save, mindrape is will negates, really not a replacement, to say nothing of spell level difference.
Wish costs xp and a 9th, Clone is just 1000gp. Wish won't bypass the growing time, just the 10 minute cast time.
Necrotic Tumor requires the target to have a Necrotic Cyst. Necrotic Cyst is a 2nd level touch range fort negates spell that allows SR. Even if we ignore the action cost of a second spell, that's extra chances for failure and an extra slot. Also Mindrape (which is definitely a great rec) beats Dominate Monster
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2023-06-06, 10:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Timestop makes a creature's items immune to anything you can do. Hence disjunction in timestop nukes all spells without wiping out possessed items.
Agreement?
Given Forcecage the extra scope of Maze for no-save disposal is limited?
How often do you plan to die? If it's not often wish-instead seems reasonable.
Yeah, there are hoops. But it's not-mind-affecting dominate monster 2(!) full spell levels earlier so systematic use on defeated enemies is often game-breaking. Nonlethal Substitution starts looking pretty attractive.
That seems reasonable.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2023-06-07, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
1) Arcane Spellsurge: Who Needs "Quicken Spell"? Sorcerers Love it. Combined with Arcane Fussion, you can cast up to 4 spells per turn.
Otherwise the 2nd AF would be again a swift action and we only 1 swift action to spend.
The metamagic increases the casting time of the 2nd AF to a full round action, so that Arcane Spellsurge can speed it up to a standard action back again.
It's an important ingredient for the combo to work and thus should be mentioned imho.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2023-06-07, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
A few spells I'll add to the list:
0: Slim pickings, I agree. I'd probably mention Heat Water [Dr302] and Dry [SaSD] as interesting utility spells, but they don't have a ton of mechanical relevance.
1: Skill feats suck. Skill spells can be better. That's why I like Friendly Face and Magecraft for their +5s to relevant skills, and Skillful Moment [Dr350] for the 20. And while we're on 1s I'll mention Endure Elements and Comprehend Languages. Classics for a reason!
2: Speaking of skill spells, Insidious Insight is a cool +10 to diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, or intimidate against someone that fails a will save. Heroics grants a fighter feat for 10 minutes/level, and there are some decent fighter feats. Levitate does a ton; Ray of Stupidity is the OG shivering touch, disabling any animal with no save; Wraithstrike is absurd if cheesed and noticeable otherwise; Whispercast strips components from spells, and is fun to apply Silent Spell to.
3: Touch of Jubilex is the cheapest way to simply make someone no longer exist. Sure, there's a fort and SR, but if it succeeds the target can't even be rezzed; they're goner than gone. Bite of the Wererat is one of the first efficient R/L buff spells and can be applied on top of polymorph effects. Celerity is obvious. Disobedience is basically lesser mind blank and that's a steal at level 3. I prepared explosive runes this morning. Sonorous Hum doubles your spell efficiency. And while we're aging out of skill spells I guess I'll point out Mask of the Ideal and Agent of the Omniscient Eye.
4: Column of Ice is technically a combat spell but it's also one of the most world-breaking spells ever devised; it has no XP or expensive material components but can literally solve global warming. Feeblemind is a great "save or lose but not die" option. Friendly Fire is pretty similar to ray deflection, and it's even modal! This is also the level of Greater Invisibility, which has **** duration but still. Stone Shape is another world-builder, Voice of the Dragon might be the last skill spell I mention, Wall of Salt breaks greyhawk's economy, and of course Shadow Conjuration is somewhere between "the most versatile spell of its level" and "even more broken than many of the things it can emulate, depending on how your DM runs it."
I might tackle higher levels, but already I can see the trend that you focused a lot more on spells that kill people than I did.Last edited by bekeleven; 2023-06-07 at 01:51 AM.
Tome of the Holy Grail: Draw power from legendary heroes.|The Dashing Dualist: Two weapons. One happy ending.|The Shifter: Be all that you can be.|The Professional: Mundanes, competent.|The Wuxia Fighter: Mundanes, Wacky.|The Generalist: Do literally everything.
Skill Trick Compendium|Cantrips for Days|Complete Control Revamped: Customize everything.|Bek's Book of Blissful Bewitchment: Who wants to spend their life in a musty cave?
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2023-06-07, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Last edited by Biggus; 2023-06-07 at 06:58 AM. Reason: typo
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2023-06-07, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Disjunction has no effect on creatures, so nothing from your quote is relevant to Disjunction fired off in a Time Stop.
The relevant part is here:
Originally Posted by Time StopBuild help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2023-06-07, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
"I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want." -Rich Burlew, author of OoTS, and founder/owner of this very website you're reading this text on.
Grod's Law of game design: "You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use"
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2023-06-07, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Break Enchantment is a 5th level spell while Touch of Juiblex is a 3rd level spell. That's basically a 4 character level gap. The only remedial level-similar spell is remove curse which _might_ be ready to cast in the 4 round window. Otherwise it's the end.
The problem with Touch of Juiblex is that it doesn't do anything until round 4. It's a bit like Power Word Pain that way. The delayed onset makes this more of a niche spell in my mind. If a party cooperates though you could adopt a tag-and-run kind of strategy.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2023-06-07, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Break enchantment targets a creature. Slime is a dungeon hazard; it has no ability scores, stat block, etc. Green slime isn't a corpse - regardless of if corpses are items, or creatures with the dead condition, green slime is a totally different category.
Turning a creature into something that's not a creature, with an instantaneous duration, is in the territory of "maybe a wish can undo this." There are other ways to get this level of certainty but few if any are available by level 5; most come online after level 10.Tome of the Holy Grail: Draw power from legendary heroes.|The Dashing Dualist: Two weapons. One happy ending.|The Shifter: Be all that you can be.|The Professional: Mundanes, competent.|The Wuxia Fighter: Mundanes, Wacky.|The Generalist: Do literally everything.
Skill Trick Compendium|Cantrips for Days|Complete Control Revamped: Customize everything.|Bek's Book of Blissful Bewitchment: Who wants to spend their life in a musty cave?
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2023-06-07, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
&
You sole wipe out area spells that are on the battlefield and not any rider effects/spells that are on creatures. Those spells can't be affected since you don't have Line of Effect (LoE) to the creature during a timestop (because timestop denies you to affect creatures = no LoE towards creatures). And if you can't effect the creature, you can't affect any spells on the creature.
Thus the benefit here is very limited imho.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2023-06-07, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
I recall this from our previous argument about AMF. The claim that failure to effect is always about lack of LoE is an example of the affirming the consequent fallacy. In real life, the 'then' consequent can arise for multiple reasons, only one of which is is the 'if' and so 'if you lack LoE then the the effect is blocked' does not mean that effect blocked implies a lack of LoE.
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2023-06-07, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
1. Even without referring to LoE the arguement still holds. You can't affect the creature and thus anything that is on the creature.
2. Compare it with Line of Sight. As soon as you lose "sight" to the creature by any means, we say that you "lost LoS", or that your "LoS is broken".
The same way as soon as you can't "affect" a target, it's natural to say that your "LoE is broken" or that you "lost LoE" to the target.
Any non-area spell that is affecting creature shares the same space/volume (not square!) as his body. Since you can't affect the creature, it's body acts as a barrier against the burst of the disjunction. But the spells that you are trying to affect share the same space.
Just like you can't have LoE and not have LoE to the same point in space/volume at the same time.
You can't have LoS and don't have LoS to the same space/volume at the same time.
These things are logically impossible since they are self contradicting.
Either you see a creature and thus have LoS or you lack both.
Either you can affect a creature and thus have LoE or you lack both.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2023-06-07 at 03:23 PM.
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2023-06-07, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2023-06-07, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
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- California
- Gender
Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Here's my list, before looking at yours.
SpoilerLevel 0- Detect Magic
- Mage Hand
- Message
- No Light
- Ghost Sound
- Daze
- Acid Splash
- Sonic Snap
- Songbird
- Read Magic
Level 1- Chill Touch
- Parching Touch
- Swift Invisibility
- Nerveskitter
- Color Spray
- Charm Person
- Feather Fall
- Mage Armor
- Instant of Power
- Enlarge Person
Level 2- Dimension Leap
- Alter Self
- Animate Dead
- Wings of Cover
- Suggestion
- Heroism
- Glitterdust
- Arcane Turmoil
- Luminous Armor
- Command Undead
- Invisibility
Level 3- Dispel Magic
- Haste
- Heart of Water
- Primal Instinct
- Marked Pulse
- Glibness
- Hesitate
- Fireball
- Greater Magic Weapon
- Scrying
Level 4- Dimension Door
- Wings of Flurry
- Evard's Black Tentacles
- Celerity
- Flame Sands
- Celestial Brilliance
- Dalamar's Lightning Lance
- Polymorph
- Dominate Person
- Solid Fog
- Heart of Earth
- Greater Mirror Image
- Friendly Fire
Level 5- Overland Flight
- Teleport
- Storm Touch
- Mass Suggestion
- Greater Dispel Magic
- Lesser Planar Binding
- Call Faithful Servants
- Arcane Fusion
- Spell Haven
- Wall of Force
- Greater Enlarge Person
- Unfettered Heroism
Level 6- Planar Binding
- Heroes' Feast
- Contingency
- Fire Seeds
- Otto's Irresistible Dance
- Superior Resistance
- Mudslide
- Greater Dispel Magic
- Mass Suggestion
- Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability
Level 7- Greater Shadow Conjuration
- Scalding Touch
- Simulacrum
- Limited Wish
- Energy Immunity
- Spell Turning
- Gem Tracer
- Earthquake
- Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
- Arcane Spellsurge
Level 8- Polymorph Any Object
- Mind Blank
- Greater Planar Binding
- Chain Dispel
- Greater Arcane Fusion
- Greater Shadow Evocation
- Unyielding Form of Inevitable Death
- Maze
- Embrace the Dark Chaos
- Veil of Undeath
Level 9- Shapechange
- Ice Assassin
- Mordenkainen's Disjunction
- Gate
- Wish
- Chain Contingency
- Genesis
- Shades
- Programmed Amnesia
- Iceberg
Last edited by Troacctid; 2023-06-07 at 11:00 PM.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2023-06-07, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
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- Cascadia
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
A couple of comments on the original list: Light is useful because it saves a hand. You can cast it on the fighter's sword and he doesn't need three hands now. Better yet, cast it on a dull grey ioun stone. It's just nice for solving some logistical awkwardness.
Wizard:"I cast Magic Missile on the orc!"
DM: "You can't see the orc, he's too deep in the shadows."
Wizard: "But, he's right next to the barbarian!"
Half-Orc Barbarian: "Oh, right, I dropped my torch when the fight started so I could two-hand my greatsword."
As for Mage Armor it's... alright. Especially at level 1. Just remember that it doesn't work on Ray effects. Incorporeal foes can't bypass it like regular armor, but it doesn't change your touch AC.
As for my own contributions...
Improvisation at least deserves honorable mention. It's a Bard 1 spell that grants a scaling luck bonus that can contribute to attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks. You don't get too much mileage out of it, only lasting a round per level and the pool of points you spend to gain the bonus runs out after a few uses, but, for a 1st level spell, it's useful.
At (Sorc, Wiz) 3rd, I really like Greater Mage Armor. At this level, it's competing with a suped up chain shirt, but if you're carrying a monk around or something, it's useful. I dunno, I guess I just like this spell.
(Bard, Sorc, Wiz (and others) 6) brings us Superior Resistance. Like with Greater Mage Armor, you're trading spell slots for cash, but I think it's a great trade. For prepared casters, just replace it with other spells as party members buy up Cloaks of Resistance. For Sorcerer and Bard... maybe only get this spell on a runestaff or something.
And my favorite arcane spell to mention: Body Outside Body. It's A Wu Jen 7 spell which is... problematic. If it was one level lower, tricks like putting it on a Minor Schema or copying scrolls of it using the Unbound Scroll's ability to add charges to scrolls would work on it. But you can kind of see why it's worth having to jump through hoops for. One duplicate of you per 5 caster levels! They can't cast spells or activate spell completion or spell trigger items, but there are a lot of builds that would benefit from having a few extra "you"s around.
Looking at my suggestions they feel, I dunno, not super practical. But they all feel like they should be useful, you just have to work them a bit.
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2023-06-07, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Sorry but you can repeat it as much you want, just because you made the statement it doesn't become true.
Lets have a look at the definition of LoE (PHB 176):
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not
blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect (such as conjuring a monster). You must have a clear line of effect to the
point of origin of any spell you cast, such as the center of a fireball. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.
Just like any barrier that blocks sight causes you to lose LoS,
any barrier that blocks a spells effect make you lose LoE.
This ain't affirming the consequent fallacy, but simply checking the answer to a binary question of the rules. Do you have LoE or is broken?
in our case,..
"Yes it is broken. Because the creature's body that can't be affected (Time Stop) is a solid barrier. You can't affect any spells on the creatures body, because you can't affect the creatures body"Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2023-06-08, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
No amount of affirming the consequent will make it not affirming the consequent.
If you want to defeat such an argument, you should be answering questions like:
- Are there ways that creatures can be unaffected by spells without blocking LoE?
- How have all the possible alternatives been ruled out?
- Do the rules state that creatures are barriers for spells affecting them?
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2023-06-08, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2018
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2023-06-08, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
A few fun higher level spells I don't believe have been mentioned:
5: Draconic Polymorph: The polymorph with a 20HD limit and some stat buffs. Nothing fancy, but doesn't have to be. Lesser Ironguard: This is pretty situational since it only works on nonmagical metal, but it's still super sweet and lets you walk through some walls. Mage's Private Sanctum for your hole in the wall. Permanency, for said sanctum, and many other things (like the comprehend languages I mentioned earlier, or Telepathic Bond). Lesser Spell Matrix as the wizard's (worse) arcane spellsurge variant. Shadow Evocation because obviously. Unfettered Heroism for an action point every round, if your campaign uses 'em.
6: Greater Anticipate Teleportation: I love buffs I can leave on all day that guard against some uncommon but relevant thing! Disintegrate, another classic for a reason, even if it can't kill a tree. Freezing Glance is a rare combat spell I enjoy; unsurprisingly, it's nonlethal. Geas to get someone out of your hair, at least, if it works. Mental Pinnacle as a combat encounter in a can. Glimpse of the Prophecy for all-day buffs. Permanent Image is absurdly good, especially if you get theoretical with it. Mage's Lucubration, both for TO tricks and extra versatility; Shalantha's Delicate Disk for scrolls with no XP cost.
7: 7th level has some of the "immune to everything" spells like Body of War and Elemental Body, but note the downsides; becoming a warforged titan turns off your spellcasting. Glass Strike as a construct-and-undead-killer. Summon Monster VII is actually one of my favorites because of Avoral, Invisible Stalker, and Djinni, among others. Vile Rebellion is the only spell with its own Fleetwood Mac soundtrack. Unicorn Heart is a buff, but sneakily, it's also the best way to teleport an unwilling target with no save or SR.
8: Discern Location is one of the simplest and most powerful divination spells. The Dark Chaos spells show up at this level, if your campaign is into that. Greater Familiarity of Place has some hoops, but you only jump through them once, since the spell is permanent and requires no expensive components. Moment of Prescience is one of the best panic buttons.
9: Most of the good ones have already been mentioned. I guess I'll throw in Genius Loci (great pairing with Familiarity of Place), Hindsight and Teleport Through Time as the campaign-breaking one two punch, Instant Refuge for a more limited contingency that stacks with everything, Hide Life and Kissed by the Ages are Immortality for dummies, Undermaster to reshape the world as you choose.Tome of the Holy Grail: Draw power from legendary heroes.|The Dashing Dualist: Two weapons. One happy ending.|The Shifter: Be all that you can be.|The Professional: Mundanes, competent.|The Wuxia Fighter: Mundanes, Wacky.|The Generalist: Do literally everything.
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2023-06-08, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
I'll mention Shieldbearer and Shield Companion (Dragon #308). Both are basically the same, enchanting a shield to hover next to somebody and grant its AC bonus for rounds/level. Given that a tower shield grants +4, this is equivalent to the Shield spell, only with worse duration and it doesn't protect against incorporeal attacks and Magic Missile. That being said, at higher levels you can get an enchanted shield, and the shorter duration probably won't matter. Shieldbearer can grant the shield to an ally, and Shield Companion grants all protective benefits, which might include cover.
I wouldn't necessarily consider them to be among the best 1st-level spells, but they're better than Shield once they reliably last the whole encounter.
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2023-06-09, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
If you would have explained your thoughts earlier instead of repeating the rhetorical phrase I could have addressed these things earlier and it would have same time. Nothing against the use of some spicy phrases, but don't leave people in the dark at what you mean with em.
1: Are there ways that creatures can be unaffected by spells without blocking LoE?
Anything that makes the creature somehow be unaffected by the spell causes you to lose Line of Effect to the creature.
It doesn't matter if it's the explicit text of a specific spell, a save roll or a straight immunity against the spell.
All result in a loss of Line of Effect, because the spell simple doesn't effect that creature's body.
And since a creatures body is solid, it acts as a barrier as soon as it is unaffected somehow. If you can't affect a creature for some reason, you can't affect any spells that have "Target: creature". The spell simply can not target those effects on the creatures body.
2: How have all the possible alternatives been ruled out?
So you expect me to check and confirm if any possible alternative exists and than somehow prove it to you? How much time and posts should I wast on this topic and how will I ever prove you if there are no possible alternatives?
Sorry, but that is a lame argument. If you disagree so hard with my interpretation, it's up to you to present any possible alternatives. If you can't present one, assume that there might be none. Otherwise this would become some kind of "joker" argument that you always can pull out. "But there might be other possibilities" Yeah, we can never be sure about this on ANY topic in life. Therefore it ain't an argument.
3: Do the rules state that creatures are barriers for spells affecting them?
As I said above, it's the other way around. As soon as you have something that can't be affected by the spell somehow and that is solid at the same time, it acts as a barrier.
It doesn't matter at all what causes you to not being able to affect that solid stuff.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2023-06-09, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
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Re: Top 10 Arcane Spells per spell level.
Another restatement of the consequent.
Most people would say that a red dragon is unaffected by a fireball because it is simply immune to fire which is after all what the rules state.
Yes, questions aren't arguments...
Those just aren't the rules. If a Blue dragon is hit by a lightning bolt, the human standing behind it is affected. The relevant text is here:
Originally Posted by Line AreaOriginally Posted by Line Area
I don't plan to respond further, as I don't think we should hijack this thread, and it appears no amount of evidence can persuade you.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic