Baldur's Gate 3 II: The Urge for a Second Playthrough

[Jophiel]

I never worried about approval much either (I usually five-finger stuff anyway) which is why I said "Game it out". Dammon would be the best option to spent any approval energy on since he's around the whole game (based on your choices of course) and sells some choice stuff in the late game.

[Zevox]

Something I want to ask the experienced players, since I also know very little about 5e mechanics in general: Which spells have effects that stay active all day? I'm told it's a great idea to set up a hireling at camp as a buffbot to hit your party with long-term buffs after every long rest, but I don't know which buffs those are, except for Longstrider and (preferably upcasted) Aid.

Well, a short answer is that knowledge of 5e mechanics doesn't help there. Spells that last until you long rest is an invention of BG3 to make longer-duration spells more easily managed in video game form. But, looking up a spell list, I think we can come up with a list here.

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Cantrips
Light (Can only be active on one target per caster.)
Produce Flame (Caster only, light effect only, goes away if thrown.)

1st-level Spells
Armor of Agathys (Caster only, goes away when temp hp is removed.)
Disguise Self (Caster only, ritual.)
Expeditious Retreat (Caster only.)
False Life (Caster only.)
Goodberry
Hex (Concentration)
Hunter's Mark (Concentration)
Longstrider (Ritual)
Mage Armor
Protection from Evil and Good (Concentration)
Shield of Faith (Concentration)
Speak with Animals (Caster only.)

2nd-level Spells
Aid
Barkskin (Concentration)
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts (Concentration, Ritual)
Enhance Ability (Concentration)
Magic Weapon (Concentration)
Protection from Poison
Warding Bond (Presumably only works with the caster in the party?)
See Invisibility

3rd-level Spells
Animate Dead (Requires a corpse)
Daylight
Elemental Weapon (Concentration)
Gaseous Form (Concentration)
Protection from Energy (Concentration)
Speak with Dead (Ritual, allows endless recasting once cast.)

4th-level Spells
Conjure Minor Elemental
Conjure Woodland Beings (Concentration)
Death Ward
Freedom of Movement
Stoneskin (Concentration)

5th-level Spells
Conjure Elemental
Contagion
Seeming

6th-level Spells
Create Undead (Requires a corpse.)
Heroes' Feast
Planar Ally
Wind Walk

So, ignoring self-only spells, assuming that Concentration spells will end if the caster leaves the party (haven't tested that, but seems a safe bet), and knowing that summon spells similarly aren't going to transfer between characters, the buff spells you could use such a character to cast would be:

Light
Goodberry
Longstrider
Mage Armor
Aid
Darkvision
Protection from Poison
See Invisibility
Daylight
Death Ward
Freedom of Movement
Seeming
Heroes' Feast
Wind Walk (Don't think that you'd want to do this one, but you could.)

It doesn't show that either. Here's me using Frenzy and then my next five attacks (the first one is Round #1 when I activated Frenzy). There's no penalty applied in the first round nor subsequent rounds. Nor, as posted earlier, after Frenzy ends.

[snip]

Also, that's a lot of crits. Go me.

Don't know what to tell you there, you're seeing something very different than I did. I know for a fact that was how it was working when I had Karlach as a Berserker in my first run, I saw her accuracy rating drop each turn, by 5% before I turned on Reckless Attack. Maybe there's a bug preventing the combat log from showing the penalty? That's the only guess I could give about it. Unless you're playing with a mod that removes the penalty, but I'd assume you'd know if you were.

[Jophiel]

In any event, there's no mechanical evidence I can see to suggest that Frenzy carries any penalty in BG3 either when active or after it ends. It doesn't show in the combat logs, the Wiki doesn't reference it, the in-game tool tips don't reference it, a penalty doesn't show as a condition on your character in game play and I can't find an associated condition in the Wiki.

As a final check, I fought the flaming sphere in HoH at its spawn spot. Rest of the party stayed out of combat, I didn't move for four rounds (so lighting and conditions stayed the same), I took off my Risky Ring and didn't use Reckless Attack so no Advantage and, each round, my chance to hit stayed at 95%. There's just nothing to suggest any associated penalty with Frenzy.

[Zevox]

In any event, there's no mechanical evidence I can see to suggest that Frenzy carries any penalty in BG3 either when active or after it ends. It doesn't show in the combat logs, the Wiki doesn't reference it, the in-game tool tips don't reference it, a penalty doesn't show as a condition on your character in game play and I can't find an associated condition in the Wiki.

As a final check, I fought the flaming sphere in HoH at its spawn spot. Rest of the party stayed out of combat, I didn't move for four rounds (so lighting and conditions stayed the same), I took off my Risky Ring and didn't use Reckless Attack so no Advantage and, each round, my chance to hit stayed at 95%. There's just nothing to suggest any associated penalty with Frenzy.

What are you talking about with that? It's right there in the description of Frenzied Strike.

[Jophiel]

Aaahhh.... ok! That's not actually for using Frenzy, that's for using Frenzied Strike. As in the bonus action attack you can take when Frenzied. That explains it -- I never really bothered to use Frenzied Strike since I had the Thief bonus action off-hand attacks anyway. I was using Frenzy for the two extra damage. And I wasn't using it in the tests earlier since I was talking about Frenzy and assumed you were as well (since Frenzy in 5e has the exhaustion mechanic).

[Zevox]

Aaahhh.... ok! That's not actually for using Frenzy, that's for using Frenzied Strike. As in the bonus action attack you can take when Frenzied. That explains it -- I never really bothered to use Frenzied Strike since I had the Thief bonus action off-hand attacks anyway. I was using Frenzy for the two extra damage. And I wasn't using it in the tests earlier since I was talking about Frenzy and assumed you were as well (since Frenzy in 5e has the exhaustion mechanic).

So, you basically weren't using Frenzy then, just normal Rage. Because Frenzied Strike is what makes Frenzy different from any other Barbarian's rage. You may as well have switched your subclass then, unless you were using some other effect of the Berserker (I guess Mindless Rage is nice at times?).

[Jophiel]

So, you basically weren't using Frenzy then, just normal Rage.

Well, no, I was using Frenzy for the extra 8pts of damage per round (two mainhand attacks, two off-hand attacks). Plus any additional from Haste effect attacks. Based on my above six attacks, that's 12 pts out of 85 pts or 14% of my straight weapon damage (not counting Sneak Attack damage)

Which was more valuable to me than the Wildheart effects (Karlach was running Elk for the group movement bonus though). Bear's resilience might have been okay but my AC was high enough that I didn't get hit much and, using Risky Ring, didn't suffer the Reckless Attack "Advantage to hit me" penalties. Risky Ring's penalties were basically offset by Deep Gnome/Thief/Barb save advantages

[Zevox]

Well, no, I was using Frenzy for the extra 8pts of damage per round (two mainhand attacks, two off-hand attacks). Plus any additional from Haste effect attacks. Based on my above six attacks, that's 12 pts out of 85 pts or 14% of my straight weapon damage (not counting Sneak Attack damage)

Which was more valuable to me than the Wildheart effects (Karlach was running Elk for the group movement bonus though). Bear's resilience might have been okay but my AC was high enough that I didn't get hit much and, using Risky Ring, didn't suffer the Reckless Attack "Advantage to hit me" penalties. Risky Ring's penalties were basically offset by Deep Gnome/Thief/Barb save advantages

That bonus damage is a part of Rage in general, not Frenzy specifically. You don't need to be a Berserker to get it. Berserkers' big benefit is the bonus action attack.

[Jophiel]

Hah, so it is

Oh well, it was four characters ago at this point and the other Barb subclasses didn't interest me anyway.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion earlier. I never saw the penalty because I never had reason to use Frenzied Strike and knew that, unlike 5e, Frenzy didn't carry an exhaustion penalty. Obviously (to me now) you meant Frenzied Strike and we were talking past one another due to the similar names.

[NeoVid]

Frenzy's bonus action Enraged Throw attack doesn't get you fatigue like the melee attack, so the subclass does get you bonus action attacks with no drawback.

[Zevox]

Anyway, sorry for the confusion earlier. I never saw the penalty because I never had reason to use Frenzied Strike and knew that, unlike 5e, Frenzy didn't carry an exhaustion penalty. Obviously (to me now) you meant Frenzied Strike and we were talking past one another due to the similar names.

Eh, it's more that I was assuming you must be using Frenzied Strike, since otherwise why use Frenzy/Berserker? So I didn't think it needed to be specified. Not realizing you were under the misconception that the damage boost wasn't normal for Rage.

Frenzy's bonus action Enraged Throw attack doesn't get you fatigue like the melee attack, so the subclass does get you bonus action attacks with no drawback.

Huh, that's weird. I wonder if that's an oversight on their part?

[Keltest]

Huh, that's weird. I wonder if that's an oversight on their part?

No, it was a deliberate change in a fairly recent patch.

[Zevox]

No, it was a deliberate change in a fairly recent patch.

Bizarre. Why have the melee bonus attack from frenzy come with the drawback, but the thrown version have none?

[Keltest]

Bizarre. Why have the melee bonus attack from frenzy come with the drawback, but the thrown version have none?

No idea. Could be because the need for ammo was already considered penalty enough.

[Anonymouswizard]

No idea. Could be because the need for ammo was already considered penalty enough.

You can buy a +1 returning pike in Chapter 1! Or, you know, just use enemies as projectiles.

[Cikomyr2]

So i basically spent the entire game lugging around icy broken stuff, and other bits and pieces, expecting to be rewarded with an advanced smith when i get to Baldur's Gate who would craft this end-game gear.

Nope.

Right click on the item, if you see "combine" its a crafting component that you can use yourself at any time. Don't lug around useless stuff.

[Anonymouswizard]

So i basically spent the entire game lugging around icy broken stuff, and other bits and pieces, expecting to be rewarded with an advanced smith when i get to Baldur's Gate who would craft this end-game gear.

Nope.

Right click on the item, if you see "combine" its a crafting component that you can use yourself at any time. Don't lug around useless stuff.

It took me like 150 hours AND a trip to Google to work out that you didn't need to bring the spear pieces to somebody to combine them. It might not help that I'm running games of both Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous in parallel, and in those games you do craft special items by talking to NPCs.

... actually the Pathfinder games have made me utterly loath BG3's four person party. Playing with six characters in a turn based game really isn't more of a hassle than playing with four, and it really increases the viability of builds outside the iconic four roles. The only reason I go anywhere without an archer in the Pathfinder games is because I haven't met one yet, whereas I struggle to fit one into a BG4 party (best I can do is a Tav or Surge Ranger).

[Cikomyr2]

It took me like 150 hours AND a trip to Google to work out that you didn't need to bring the spear pieces to somebody to combine them. It might not help that I'm running games of both Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous in parallel, and in those games you do craft special items by talking to NPCs.

... actually the Pathfinder games have made me utterly loath BG3's four person party. Playing with six characters in a turn based game really isn't more of a hassle than playing with four, and it really increases the viability of builds outside the iconic four roles. The only reason I go anywhere without an archer in the Pathfinder games is because I haven't met one yet, whereas I struggle to fit one into a BG4 party (best I can do is a Tav or Surge Ranger).

Fun fact; there is not a single plot dependant item you can sell or mark as ware.

I kept so many documents for no reason. Letters i thought could b used as leverage or evidence.

[Eldonauran]

Fun fact; there is not a single plot dependant item you can sell or mark as ware.

I kept so many documents for no reason. Letters i thought could b used as leverage or evidence.

I have one crate in my Travel Chest dedicated for all the misc documents. Makes a good place to keep things you might want to go back and read later (I never did though).

[Jophiel]

Four runs and it never even occurred to me that you could combine stuff like the broken spear bits. Assumed it was just some environmental storytelling: This guy has the broken part A and broken part B is in that monster, guess what happened. Nifty.

For reasons that only make sense in my head, I like to keep every book and scrap of paper and unload them all on the small bookshop in Act III. "Here lady, become known as the place to go if someone wants a random letter written by a Moonrise guard..."

[Cikomyr2]

Four runs and it never even occurred to me that you could combine stuff like the broken spear bits. Assumed it was just some environmental storytelling: This guy has the broken part A and broken part B is in that monster, guess what happened. Nifty.

For reasons that only make sense in my head, I like to keep every book and scrap of paper and unload them all on the small bookshop in Act III. "Here lady, become known as the place to go if someone wants a random letter written by a Moonrise guard..."

"This piece of paper is directly from Lord Gortash's private desk. This one is from Avernus. This is the secret censored tale of Orpheus".

[Psyren]

I was a bit disappointed with the documents too. You can literally find one in Act 2 among Ketheric's personal effects that

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spells out the crown on the Netherbrain is the Crown of Karsus, and I even sent that one to Gale, but his mind was still blown in Act 3

when Raphael "revealed "what it was.

You can buy a +1 returning pike in Chapter 1! Or, you know, just use enemies as projectiles.

There's also the legendary +3 returning trident in Act 3 (the one from the circus) for thrower builds.

I have it on Lae'zel currently, but I'm going to make Minsc a Strength Ranger and slap that on him once she gets her Silver Sword

... actually the Pathfinder games have made me utterly loath BG3's four person party. Playing with six characters in a turn based game really isn't more of a hassle than playing with four, and it really increases the viability of builds outside the iconic four roles. The only reason I go anywhere without an archer in the Pathfinder games is because I haven't met one yet, whereas I struggle to fit one into a BG4 party (best I can do is a Tav or Surge Ranger).

I agree that 5-6 feels more like what the game should have gone with, especially having gotten the chance to try that myself via NPL. Big enough for reasonable banter and more credible boss fights, small enough that there's still the possibility of a decent challenge to even the non-boss encounters. Also small enough that maneuvering your polycule onto an elevator doesn't become a game of musical chairs.

Even without respeccing, Astarion makes a good early archer, whether as a rogue or a bard. And Wyll is a de facto archer via EB (you can even make him a real one via IPW if you want to use magic arrows.)

[Jophiel]

"This piece of paper is directly from Lord Gortash's private desk. This one is from Avernus. This is the secret censored tale of Orpheus".

Here's our collection of Githyanki DVD-ROMs...

[Spore]

... actually the Pathfinder games have made me utterly loath BG3's four person party. Playing with six characters in a turn based game really isn't more of a hassle than playing with four, and it really increases the viability of builds outside the iconic four roles. The only reason I go anywhere without an archer in the Pathfinder games is because I haven't met one yet, whereas I struggle to fit one into a BG4 party (best I can do is a Tav or Surge Ranger).

It is sorta the reverse for me honestly. Yes, 6 members allows for more depth and hybrid roles and characters. But for narrative purposes 6 people is a nightmare; and it is in P&P too. 5 people is already stretching it thinly.

I would not mind a 6 person party, in fact I would try a 6 person mod if they released a second mod that rebalances fights to suddenly compensate for +50% more man power. But here comes the next issue. Any boss worth their salt (i.e. does not cave within two rounds of combat) would either need so many minions to churn through so they are not eaten alive OR gotten the patented Owlcat treatment of tripling their HP, adding +5 to their AC and saves and given various bonus immunities as well as a disgusting spell resistance/damage resistance. (Side note: I thank 5e for doing resistance as half damage rather than punishing builds that use a load of small weak attacks by ignoring the first x damage of a given type).

If there is ANYTHING to complain about this game, it is the need* to have a trap monkey. (and possibly a lockpick expert too). Because traps are not a tax on health, they are do or die. I understand the purpose of adding a thrill to unseen dangers such as traps of exploring dungeons in addition to clearly visible enemies. But I would not miss them in the slightest if they were gone or less severe.

[Psyren]

I would not mind a 6 person party, in fact I would try a 6 person mod if they released a second mod that rebalances fights to suddenly compensate for +50% more man power.

Both do exist actually:

- While No Party Limit increases the max party size to 16 (big enough for every PC, 4-player co-op, and a hireling or two besides), if you so desire you can roll with just 6, or 4, or even less.

- There are a variety of difficulty-heightening mods you can combine alongside NPL if you're after more challenge, e.g. Additional Enemies/Encounters, Tactician+, Survival Mode, and Nightmare Mode.

If there is ANYTHING to complain about this game, it is the need* to have a trap monkey. (and possibly a lockpick expert too). Because traps are not a tax on health, they are do or die. I understand the purpose of adding a thrill to unseen dangers such as traps of exploring dungeons in addition to clearly visible enemies. But I would not miss them in the slightest if they were gone or less severe.

Traps can indeed be nasty, but in actuality, most traps can be cheesed with thrown objects - e.g. you can trigger tripwires and pressure plates from afar, obstruct vents, block projectiles etc. But even if you prefer to resolve traps via dice rolls (which I do), literally anyone with Sleight of Hand proficiency and decent dex can be a trapmonkey, it's not like you need a rogue specifically. And with buffs like Gudiance or Bardsong you can get away with not having the decent dex too.

[Zevox]

If there is ANYTHING to complain about this game, it is the need* to have a trap monkey. (and possibly a lockpick expert too). Because traps are not a tax on health, they are do or die. I understand the purpose of adding a thrill to unseen dangers such as traps of exploring dungeons in addition to clearly visible enemies. But I would not miss them in the slightest if they were gone or less severe.

Traps can indeed be nasty, but in actuality, most traps can be cheesed with thrown objects - e.g. you can trigger tripwires and pressure plates from afar, obstruct vents, block projectiles etc. But even if you prefer to resolve traps via dice rolls (which I do), literally anyone with Sleight of Hand proficiency and decent dex can be a trapmonkey, it's not like you need a rogue specifically. And with buffs like Gudiance or Bardsong you can get away with not having the decent dex too.

Yeah, I would say that until Act 3, you can do entirely without a party member who's even proficient in Sleight of Hand. Decent Dex plus Guidance is plenty to handle most Act 1-2 lockpicking and traps, and not all traps need to be disarmed anyway, a lot can be avoided or triggered safely from a distance. Plus a lot of things you'd want to lockpick you can also just break with attacks, and that'll work just fine. In Act 3 though there is a lot of traps and locked doors with a high enough DC that you'd probably like to have a Rogue or Bard with expertise in Sleight of Hand, or at least someone with proficiency; admittedly, I do wish that could be toned down. But for the most of the game, it's not really an issue.

[Anonymouswizard]

I agree that 5-6 feels more like what the game should have gone with, especially having gotten the chance to try that myself via NPL. Big enough for reasonable banter and more credible boss fights, small enough that there's still the possibility of a decent challenge to even the non-boss encounters. Also small enough that maneuvering your polycule onto an elevator doesn't become a game of musical chairs.

I get the feeling that both Original Sin 2 and BG3 were designed with the idea that every Origin character was part of the group and then had the four person limit applied because of tradition. OS2 is actually a bit worse about it, you get to pick every party member's starting skillset if you don't want the balanced spread the game gives you.

Note that while I don't really feel like playing any of the BG3 origins Lose is exactly the kind of character I'd play at the table, is awesome, is best girl, and who I always pick in OS2 (which really shouldn't have given you custom characters).

Even without respeccing, Astarion makes a good early archer, whether as a rogue or a bard. And Wyll is a de facto archer via EB (you can even make him a real one via IPW if you want to use magic arrows.)

Astarion is just about passable, but his turns devolve into endless hiding rather than raining arrows of the heads of our foes. And Will is a blaster (or possibly controller).

It is sorta the reverse for me honestly. Yes, 6 members allows for more depth and hybrid roles and characters. But for narrative purposes 6 people is a nightmare; and it is in P&P too. 5 people is already stretching it thinly.

You already have eight party members camping in the streets of Baldur's Gate (didn't the guards tell me off for that in the first game?), I'm not asking for a Pathfinder style 20 companions. More the ability to have the entire core crew and slot some into less basic roles.

If there was a reasonable chance I'd be carting around both Will and Gale I wouldn't have built both as blasters.

[Errorname]

I get the feeling that both Original Sin 2 and BG3 were designed with the idea that every Origin character was part of the group and then had the four person limit applied because of tradition. OS2 is actually a bit worse about it, you get to pick every party member's starting skillset if you don't want the balanced spread the game gives you

Especially when you consider that BG3 was apparently designed to lock in your party composition after a certain point. That would have sucked.

You already have eight party members camping in the streets of Baldur's Gate (didn't the guards tell me off for that in the first game?), I'm not asking for a Pathfinder style 20 companions. More the ability to have the entire core crew and slot some into less basic roles.

I think they expect you to settle into the Elfsong Tavern pretty quickly.

[warty goblin]

See when it comes to party size I definitely disagree. Not being able to cover every need perfectly and see and do everything in a playthrough means what you do choose to do actually has meaning. If you can do everything with everyone, you're basically just playing Skyrim but with more people around.

[Zevox]

Honestly, I think if you feel the need to fill any "basic roles" within the party, that's probably a self-imposed restriction on your part. Like 5E itself, I don't think BG3 really needs any particular roles filled. You'll probably want one character that can be a melee frontliner, just so your whole party isn't all squishy ranged characters, but most classes can be built for that even without multiclassing, you just need a good AC and decent con score. Beyond that, I can see feeling like you need someone for lockpicking/trap disarming in Act 3, as I said in my last post, but that's about it. You don't need a healer - most in-combat healing in 5E isn't especially good anyway, potions will actually be the best combat healing you're going to get most of the time since BG3 made them a bonus action to use - you don't need a Rogue/dedicated skill monkey, and you likely don't even need an arcane-style caster (though I've never been without, but that's because of personal preference; I love my casters). You really should just be able to do whatever party composition you feel like and have it work just fine.

Like, I felt a little restricted about my party composition on my first run, but that's because I was playing a Light Cleric and was choosing to always use Shadowheart, who isn't designed as a frontliner by default (though I later respecced her into a War Domain Cleric that was), so I did feel like I should always use a melee character as my third, leaving only one flexible slot, which I personally prefer to fill with a caster. So, Gale or Wyll, until I turned Astarion into a Bard so he'd qualify too. But that was a lot of self-imposed restrictions, not the game making me do that. I've been more flexible about it with my second run, and never found a party composition that didn't seem to work.