MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[woweedd]

To be clear, in 3.5, faling is 1d6 damage per foot fallen, maxing out at 20d6. It may actually be mathematically impossible for a character of Miko's level and hit duxe to die feom falling, unkess, like Roy, they'd alreadly taken a large amount of damage earlier. Notice one of Roy's plans was "drink a potion and hope the damage dice roll low".

[mashlagoo1982]

I don't see it listed in the explanation.

Can someone refresh my memory and provide the proposed method Protean accomplished the stomp scene? Is it just through sheer strength or some shape change ex ability?

[Keltest]

I don't see it listed in the explanation.

Can someone refresh my memory and provide the proposed method Protean accomplished the stomp scene? Is it just through sheer strength or some shape change ex ability?

The general feeling has been that anything which can accomplish the tower scene can manage the stomp with strength. Earthquake is an ability but its a bizarrely rare and specific ability, so we mostly can't read anything useful from the scene without completely deleting our candidate pool. If a candidate has a direct explanation, all the better, but requiring it just isnt helpful.

[Tubercular Ox]

I am sorry I brought up the Hunting Horror. It was a terrible example of how a different candidate can tell a different story because it set expectations I’m not ready to meet.

I know how causality works. First, Rich picked a monster that fit his primary objectives. Maybe he wanted a monster that was a metaphor for change. Maybe he wanted a monster that was good at combat. Maybe both, maybe neither, we’ll never know unless he tells us.

Second, he looked at the monster he picked to appreciate what it could do that wasn’t a primary objective. Maybe this was when he learned it was great at combat, maybe this was when he learned it’s a metaphor for change, maybe both, maybe neither. We’ll never know unless he tells us.

Third, he decided what parts of his monster he was going to portray to his audience. We know this. We know he chose to present the monster as childlike, and he chose to have a scene where it established it was good at combat.

Finally, when it came time to write the scenes he decided on in step three, he examined the monster’s abilities again, this time looking for those that fit his artistic and story needs, whether or not these were the same abilities that attracted him in steps one or two. For example, Rich is probably averse to drawing any part of the Monster in the Dark’s body, and if he’d already decided Miko’s role before the Tower Scene, then liquefying Miko wasn’t an acceptable way to end the scene.

Base Attack/Grapple: +33/+58
Attack: Slam +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20)

And I'm now realizing I don't know exactly how to interpret it. (A Protean also has Strength of 53, for what that's worth.)

The to-hit is absurd, a dead giveaway that this monster is not designed for normal encounters. The 53 Strength is also absurd, it feels like monopoly money.

The 2d6 damage is reasonable, but Rich even told a joke once about small die rolls and lots of bonus damage. The bonus damage is up there, but a high level (non-epic) rogue can compete with sneak attacks.

So this monster is incredibly strong but it’s a reasonable attack and the Protean isn’t really silly until you consider 5 attacks, the destabilize form special, and its regeneration 50, SR 39, and 50 AC.

But that’s all done in step two, when Rich familiarizes himself with his monster. After step two is over probably what Rich remembers is that it is very strong, which everyone here seems to agree with.

In step 4, all that matters is that it’s a slam. If Rich has already decided by this point that it’s going to knock Miko away so she can escape without having to best the Monster in the Dark somehow, then when he’s deciding how far it can hit, he’s picturing this:

Slap or Slam
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

That’s actually not bad for batting things away, but only if Rich imagines it with a batting motion, meaning the Protean only punched Miko through the wall if Rich is dumb and hates baseball.

A monster with only a bite attack would never be able to keep up with a slam attack as far as hitting for distance goes, and a quadruped with hoof attacks has an opportunity to be imagined doing a mule kick, which might be better than the slam because of the better leverage.

So I think a one-strength-fits-all solution to the problem is not narrative enough to explain anything Rich would do in step 4.

I don't understand. Is there a monster that has those attributes?

That is an excellent question. As you were spending the last decade proposing different alternate candidates to the thread, were there any you did not propose because they had the right look and feel but the wrong stats? I’d like to see those monsters, since we’ve yet to find one that pleases everybody using the stats the thread has created.

Or are you arguing that we shouldn't rely on anything we know about MitD because its possible to construct a possible alternative based on narrative choices the Giant might choose to make?

If two different monsters have two different explanations for a scene, the wrong thing to do is to try and decide which explanation makes the most sense, because when Rich is picking an explanation that makes sense for his monster, he is not really considering how that explanation applies to other monsters.

So the Protean really needs “hit lightly” to mean, “pull a punch to do as little damage as possible,” because it would liquify Miko if allowed to go all out.

The Turaglas (I think?) really needs “hit lightly” to mean, “pick a form and attack that does less damage than any other form and attack,” and then it does need to perform a basic attack without any house rules that would let it pull its punch, because it’s necessary to achieve the effect.

Rich never, ever spent a single second deciding which definition of hit lightly was more intuitive. He picked the one that let his monster through the scene and never thought about the other. Therefore, nothing about the fact that the Protean and Turaglas have different definitions of hitting lightly can be used to exclude one and prefer the other.

Every monster tells its own story.

I don't see it listed in the explanation.

Can someone refresh my memory and provide the proposed method Protean accomplished the stomp scene? Is it just through sheer strength or some shape change ex ability?

There used to be people on this forum who thought Stamp and Shock Wave were good candidates for the Earthquake scene. They’re feats, which are (Ex) abilities, and they’re [Monstrous], so you could argue that a Protean could mimic the powerful limbs of a dragon or magical beast even if it doesn’t meet the other prerequisites for the feats.

I think it impoverishes the story--whether the story which Rich is telling, or a different story someone else is telling--to treat all the characterization in the tower scene as the author going "oops, this piece will go over there unless pushed in a different direction and I want it over here, I'd better handwave some way to change its direction."

Okay, I think I misunderstood you the first time. Are you saying that the hit-lightly contest is too pure to be a vehicle to advance the plot? What is Rich supposed to do when he does need a vehicle to advance the plot? Use B-tier writing so that you won’t be confused about which parts of the plot are functional and which you’re supposed to enjoy? Authors would prefer it if you enjoyed everything in their story, and they’re not shy about how far they’re willing to go to do that.

Free example:

Plots sometimes work out in strange ways. Part of the goal of this section, where Miko arrests the Order, was to get them down to Azure City. I knew that sitting on a throne there was an old man who was capable of explaining the significance of the Gates and the nature of the plot—and that the Order were never going to go and take the initiative to find out if what Xykon was screwing around with was, like, important. Roy was strictly nearsighted, looking only to the immediate goal of destroying Xykon. I needed to get him to see the Big Picture, and that meant getting him to Azure City.

But how to get him there was a challenge. I couldn’t have him learn that Xykon was “alive” because then he would just run off directly to face the lich again—something I needed to delay, unless I wanted the comic to end right away. What I came up with was to place a person in the OOTS world who was in the same position as I was. Shojo needed to get Roy to Azure City to get him to listen, but he couldn’t do so openly. He needed to sneak around behind the backs of his own servants because of their rigid oaths. This had the added benefit of keeping the information about the purpose of the plan secret from the person actually enacting the plan—specifically, Miko. And if Miko didn’t know the details, then there was no way the readers could accidentally learn them before I was ready to spill the beans. Thus, we first see Miko playing the fool for Shojo, carrying out orders that directly run counter to the protocol of the Sapphire Guard without her knowledge.

Bottom line: The Sapphire Guard exists because Rich wanted to delay the reveal until the end of the second book, all of which Rich proudly admits. He turned them into something you would enjoy reading about because that is what authors do all day, every day. They make stuff worth reading.

[Kish]

I think the name of the book the protean is found in is enough to establish that it's not meant for normal encounters, and any scene that illustrates the creature in the darkness being massively powerful is enough to establish that his mysterious species is not meant for normal encounters. Convenient dovetailing there.

Okay, I think I misunderstood you the first time. Are you saying that the hit-lightly contest is too pure to be a vehicle to advance the plot?

I am saying that:

Rich is looking at his chosen monster and wants an excuse for it to use its lightest attack instead of its hardest one, because it is not a punch and would hit farther than its actual punch would, if physics were allowed to apply. So he invents a hit-the-lightest game, and the monster uses the attack with the most leverage instead of the most damage, which creates good visuals for a monster in the dark.

Please accept this as just a story and not an attempt to persuade you of anything other than the ability to tell multiple stories.

is a story development process significantly below the quality I expect from Rich after six books. And that's what I'm supposed to be responding to: it as a story, unconnected to anything actually in the comic. Right?

If we're actually talking about the story that's in the comic, how about this:

Rich has the creature hit Miko and her horse each once. Each of them is knocked through a wall. They take damage. It is an unspecified amount of damage below the amount that would kill either of them.

"This is him hitting as lightly as he can" points to "he is massively strong and doesn't know this." It does not point to "something Rich wouldn't want would happen if he actually tried to punch Miko," except insofar as lacking a joke and lacking a "massively strong!" highlight would be things Rich doesn't want. It does not indicate that when he said "hit the lightest" he actually meant "use some kind of special attack which should be explicitly distinguished from a word that actually means hitting."

And it should surprise no one that I do not agree with your paraphrase of the text you quoted from Rich.

[Tubercular Ox]

a story development process significantly below the quality I expect from Rich after six books. And that's what I'm supposed to be responding to: it as a story, unconnected to anything actually in the comic. Right?

I don't like that you have chosen to insult how I think writing works in a way that can never be proven one way or another because it is behind the scenes. And even though I'm trying to avoid the subject, it's obvious what you think of me, so let's cut to the chase: You write one sentence explaining what kind of author Rich would have to be in order for the Monster in the Dark to be a Hunting Horror, and I put it in my signature. If the Hunting Horror is not the Monster in the Dark, it's a self-own that I carry around forever. If the Hunting Horror is the Monster in the Dark, then everyone knows you rejected the right answer because Rich wasn't good enough for you.

[Kish]

I don't like that you have chosen to insult how I think writing works in a way that can never be proven one way or another because it is behind the scenes.

As we have been over in some detail, if the creature in the darkness is a hunting horror than it depends on Rich's "It is possible to guess...it's not something I made up" covering "I used this other game system, which told me to make up a spell, so I did so and used that made-up spell in a key scene." It depends on the creature actually being far physically weaker than either the tower scene or the earthquake scene indicates. It depends on the creature being in the darkness not because Xykon and Redcloak keep him there though he wishes not to be, but because light, unheralded, hurts him.

The creature in the darkness is a Hunting Horror if Rich wrote a Cthulhu D20-based shaggy dog story.

Put that in your sig, if you want.

[Atomburster]

I'm not sure if it has been brought up before, but can Astral Caravan (or variant thereof), Dream Travel (or variant thereof) or Divert Teleport accomplish the effects in the Escape scene? Divert Teleport, in particular, seems like it would let Teleport or Greater Teleport execute the Escape without necessarily bringing MiTD along.

[Ruck]

I don't like that you have chosen to insult how I think writing works in a way that can never be proven one way or another because it is behind the scenes.

As we have been over in some detail, if the creature in the darkness is a hunting horror than it depends on Rich's "It is possible to guess...it's not something I made up" covering "I used this other game system, which told me to make up a spell, so I did so and used that made-up spell in a key scene." It depends on the creature actually being far physically weaker than either the tower scene or the earthquake scene indicates. It depends on the creature being in the darkness not because Xykon and Redcloak keep him there though he wishes not to be, but because light, unheralded, hurts him.

Ox,

As best as I understand your concept of the process, I think the trouble with the analysis is that it pictures the writing process as linear with the story. As in, Rich writes sequentially without planning out the overall picture or process.

What I mean is, the only real reason Rich would write "when the MitD proposes a game of who can hit the lightest, he actually meant something else," is if he was writing the whole story in order-- down to the line and panel. He would have to write MitD saying "Wanna play a game? It's called, 'Who Can Hit the Lightest?'", and then realize, "Oh, MitD's lightest strike won't have the effect I want it to, so I'm going to have him do something else after he said that."

But that's not how it works. If Rich wanted MitD to use a different method to send Miko out of the tower, he would have him propose a game where he does that. If Rich got to this point in the story and wanted to show off some of MitD's power, but sheer strength wouldn't achieve his desired story result, he would have MitD propose or do something else. In your scenario, MitD could just say "Let's play a game called 'Who Can Knock Back the Furthest?'" or some such.

(I think part of the point of that scene is that MitD isn't aware of his own strength, so I don't think that would fit the scene either, but for argument's sake, the point is: There's no reason to have MitD say one thing and do another, when Rich can just have MitD say the thing he does.)

We have his own words for how much he plans out in advance and how much he knows about the story and where it's going. (There are multiple other posts and Patreon answers from Rich about his process, mostly in the "Writing" section here under "Writing Process" or "Story Development.")

Plus, he's on his own publishing schedule, so he doesn't have to publish a strip until he thinks it's ready. Between those factors, I don't see any scenario where he writes himself into a corner mid-strip and then just fudges something instead of fixing the whole strip so that it all works.

And while I can't speak for Kish, I think that's what they mean by "story development process significantly below the quality" etc. If Rich wanted MitD to be something that hasn't fit the scenes we've seen, then those scenes would be different. He wouldn't just plow ahead and not care that MitD doesn't fit those scenes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not sure if it has been brought up before, but can Astral Caravan (or variant thereof), Dream Travel (or variant thereof) or Divert Teleport accomplish the effects in the Escape scene? Divert Teleport, in particular, seems like it would let Teleport or Greater Teleport execute the Escape without necessarily bringing MiTD along.

No?

Astral Caravan: definitely requires a guide to go along. And it takes days.

Dream Travel: probably requires a guide to go along. Rich would not have missed the chance for dream nonsense. It doesn't have enough distance. And it takes hours.

Divert Teleport: requires someone else to be casting teleport, and all this does is change the destination. If V was in any position to teleport out, they wouldn't need this at all.

GW

[Tubercular Ox]

As best as I understand your concept of the process, I think the trouble with the analysis is that it pictures the writing process as linear with the story. As in, Rich writes sequentially without planning out the overall picture or process.

Then we're not understanding each other, because I feel like this wasn't my intent. Traditionally what happens from this point is that people try to tell me what I meant, because words have meaning. I'm not allowed to be using a word colloquially, in a way particular to my dialect, or even improperly. The last one hurts. People seem to prefer that I meant something crazy over me just not being good with words.

In the past I would play this game where I tell people the definition of the word I need and ask them what word I should use to convey that, aka "name it and I'll use it," but I don't think I ever had anyone actually play with me and tell me how I can describe what I actually feel. I've pulled back from that game because I now fear that it would just create a second layer of people telling me what I meant.

This isn't just my problem. The endless conversations that random posters occasionally pop up to complain about, using words like "pedantic", are made of people telling other people what they must've meant, and then those other people insisting their words are clear and it's the first people's understanding of language that is wrong, leaving no one to figure out what anyone actually wanted to say.

OTOH, this is definitely one of the major reasons I'm unsatisfying to talk to. I avoid these conversations so hard that I often walk away from people making reasonable requests.

What I mean is, the only real reason Rich would write "when the MitD proposes a game of who can hit the lightest, he actually meant something else,"

What does it mean to hit the lightest? You picked a definition that requires believing Rich is trying to convey a particular house rule that's necessary to understand what's going on in the scene. I picked a definition that's dependent only on D&D instincts and the stat block we know Rich is looking at anyways.

What you're actually saying is, "when the MitD proposed a game that I understood to mean one thing, he actually meant something I didn't understand," and yes, I'll sign on to that. That's exactly what I'm saying. You got it wrong.

Or maybe you didn't, I don't know. Bottom line is the scene has more than one interpretation, and since stonewalling over one particular interpretation is not creating consensus in the thread, maybe it's time to consider other interpretations and look at different candidates.

If Rich wanted MitD to be something that hasn't fit the scenes we've seen, then those scenes would be different. He wouldn't just plow ahead and not care that MitD doesn't fit those scenes.

Preach it!

The Big Game Hunters Scene introduces five red herrings to create one clue that Proteans have their own language they would prefer to be speaking:

(I’ve removed Jenkins’ lines because they don’t add much.)

Yes, looks like we bagged it. Good work, Jenkins.

Excuse me, could you let me out of the box? There doesn’t seem to be a latch on the inside.
(Not a Protean, because a Protean would’ve tried Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt, or Knock, and then complained about one of those not working instead of complaining about a latch.)

My gods, is it talking?
(Not a Protean. All Proteans speak)

In Common, no less!
(Fits a Protean, it has its own language to speak.)

Um, yeah, I can speak, so about this box…

Well this will surely fetch a fine price.

Okay, I know you can hear me, so I’d really like to discuss the box situation.

I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world.
(Not a Protean, which is Climate/Terrain: Any)

Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say, “please,” and, “thank you.”
(Not a Protean, which has +53 Diplomacy and shouldn’t need reminders to say please and thank you, unless it’s intentionally slighting someone.)

And “Sorry about the smell.”
(Not a Protean, since Proteans don't have anything about smell on their stat block.)

And then, if you trust me, there are one or two more lines that don’t fit a +53 Diplomacy and nothing else that hurts or helps a Protean case.

[b_jonas]

Hehe, the Divert teleport psionic power would be funny. The MitD would have to manifest Teleport to teleport himself and Vaarsuvius and O-Chul to Hinjo, then manifest Divert teleport to divert himself back to the cage. The timing works because the Divert teleport power has built-in quickening so you can cast it in the same turn as the Teleport. That said, this would be much more difficult than just casting Dimension anchor on himself in one round, then Teleport the next round, for the same effect but with spells that are easier to access.

[Keltest]

Then we're not understanding each other, because I feel like this wasn't my intent. Traditionally what happens from this point is that people try to tell me what I meant, because words have meaning. I'm not allowed to be using a word colloquially, in a way particular to my dialect, or even improperly. The last one hurts. People seem to prefer that I meant something crazy over me just not being good with words.

In the past I would play this game where I tell people the definition of the word I need and ask them what word I should use to convey that, aka "name it and I'll use it," but I don't think I ever had anyone actually play with me and tell me how I can describe what I actually feel. I've pulled back from that game because I now fear that it would just create a second layer of people telling me what I meant.

This isn't just my problem. The endless conversations that random posters occasionally pop up to complain about, using words like "pedantic", are made of people telling other people what they must've meant, and then those other people insisting their words are clear and it's the first people's understanding of language that is wrong, leaving no one to figure out what anyone actually wanted to say.

OTOH, this is definitely one of the major reasons I'm unsatisfying to talk to. I avoid these conversations so hard that I often walk away from people making reasonable requests.


What does it mean to hit the lightest? You picked a definition that requires believing Rich is trying to convey a particular house rule that's necessary to understand what's going on in the scene. I picked a definition that's dependent only on D&D instincts and the stat block we know Rich is looking at anyways.

What you're actually saying is, "when the MitD proposed a game that I understood to mean one thing, he actually meant something I didn't understand," and yes, I'll sign on to that. That's exactly what I'm saying. You got it wrong.

Or maybe you didn't, I don't know. Bottom line is the scene has more than one interpretation, and since stonewalling over one particular interpretation is not creating consensus in the thread, maybe it's time to consider other interpretations and look at different candidates.


Preach it!

I feel like your analysis misses the point that the MITD is a weirdo and a goofball who is polite out of habit and nature. Thats not even a different interpretation, thats just... not getting the point in the first place. Its been pretty clear that the MITD has only ever been actually trapped by himself, not his containers. The only point you raised that I could actually agree with is that we should maybe add a "con" point to the Protean that it would not be surprising that it would speak at all, as they have their own language, and even that is kind of trivial compared to the everchanging flesh blob thing.

[Peelee]

The only point you raised that I could actually agree with is that we should maybe add a "con" point to the Protean that it would not be surprising that it would speak at all, as they have their own language

Is that not listed already? Because yeah, it should be.

[Keltest]

Is that not listed already? Because yeah, it should be.

I actually had to go and double check. There is a pro listed that it would be surprising that it speaks common, but I didnt see one that was a con about it being able to speak generally. Which doesn't 100% prove it isnt there, ive missed stuff like that in the past.

ETA: Yeah, the protean only has two cons listed: its options for the escape are as not-ideal as just about everyone elses, and the horrific flesh monster thing.

[Crusher]

If the Hunting Horror is not the Monster in the Dark, it's a self-own that I carry around forever. If the Hunting Horror is the Monster in the Dark, then everyone knows you rejected the right answer because Rich wasn't good enough for you.

I know you're being dramatic, but why would you view it this way? Its a guessing game. Being wrong at this should carry approximately as much shame as losing a game of rock-paper-scissors.

It feels a little weird saying this as I've been engaged in this for a good decade-plus, but I wonder if you might be a little too invested? I mean, really, its not that big a deal. When the reveal comes and my guess is wrong (which will 100% happen because I guessed more than 1 species), I'll feel thrilled that it *finally* happened and my wrong guesses will bring me approximately as much disappointment has having an underwhelming lunch. If one of my guesses ends up correct then I'll feel pleased and satisfied, and if not then I will congratulate those who *did* get it right and go on with my day. Thinking there'd be shame or embarrassment involved concerns me. It shouldn't be that big a deal, right?

That is an excellent question. As you were spending the last decade proposing different alternate candidates to the thread, were there any you did not propose because they had the right look and feel but the wrong stats? I’d like to see those monsters, since we’ve yet to find one that pleases everybody using the stats the thread has created.

Sadly, no, I didn't keep track of them all. Part of it is because I've looked for candidate in a wide range of different ways over the years. Sometimes I'd just google "Obscure Epic D&D monsters" or "Monsters that can cast Earthquake/Wish/Teleport" and spend a few hours charging down the rabbit hole and digging once I hit the bottom. Other times someone would note, for example, that "Red Dwarf started off posting random D&D monsters before it changed formats and eventually switched to Warhammer stuff", so I'd see if I could figure out exactly which issues were relevant and if I could find them on line (up to about #50, iirc, and yes, they all were). Since how I was looking changed, how I'd want to keep track of them changed.

"Why not just keep track of them all?" I hear you ask. Well, because I was doing it to have fun (my wife is occasionally openly appalled at what I consider "fun"), and keeping track of them all in a spreadsheet somewhere would have made it less fun for me, so I didn't. And I kind of already do, because I remember every source I've gone through (not that I could list them with 100% accuracy. My memory is very visual, I recognize formatting and fonts and such, so when I accidentally run into a source again I know I've seen it before). Plus, there have been sooooo many monster over the years, it *really* wouldn't have been fun. I've looked through all of the official hardcover monster books multiple times while looking for slightly different things, plus zillions of splatbooks and on-line sources. Its certainly in the low thousands of monsters at this point and I've only proposed ~15 or so over the years. A list of monsters I've rejected, if it existed, would be daunting.

Also, its interesting how sources on the internet have a tendency to disappear. Like, I just spent a few minutes trying to find Crystalle or General Ox or the Ophan Angel (there are definitely version of this one out there but I can't find the original version I proposed) and they all appear to be gone, vanished into the webs, so keeping track of them might not have been helpful anyway.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

we should maybe add a "con" point to the Protean that it would not be surprising that it would speak at all, as they have their own language

It is not a "language" as anyone else would ever describe it. It is, definitionally, only a language to other proteans: "Hagunemnons have an ever-evolving language that changes so quickly that only another hagunemnon can understand it" (emphasis mine). To everyone else, that's not speaking. But more importantly, the crucial factor here is not that they have a weird way to communicate amongst themselves, it is that proteans can communicate telepathically, can speak every language, and yet don't because they are extreme xenophobes. That one would speak to the hunters, and in basic no less, is extremely surprising. Not because it can't, but because the normal way every protean interacts with a non-shapeshifter is by attacking.

So no, I disagree that it is a con. It is, in my opinion, a pro. It is one of very few suggestions that have an in-story reason to be surprising when it speaks (together with pokemons, of all things, although not uniquely - the zodar also has one) that does not require Rich to have given it a language it doesn't posses and have had to lampshade it.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I know you're being dramatic, but why would you view it this way? Its a guessing game. Being wrong at this should carry approximately as much shame as losing a game of rock-paper-scissors.

Apropos of nothing, but odds-and-evens is the superior hand game. It seamlessly allows for multiple players.

[Keltest]

It is not a "language" as anyone else would ever describe it. It is, definitionally, only a language to other proteans: "Hagunemnons have an ever-evolving language that changes so quickly that only another hagunemnon can understand it" (emphasis mine). To everyone else, that's not speaking. But more importantly, the crucial factor here is not that they have a weird way to communicate amongst themselves, it is that proteans can communicate telepathically, can speak every language, and yet don't because they are extreme xenophobes. That one would speak to the hunters, and in basic no less, is extremely surprising. Not because it can't, but because the normal way every protean interacts with a non-shapeshifter is by attacking.

So no, I disagree that it is a con. It is, in my opinion, a pro. It is one of very few suggestions that have an in-story reason to be surprising when it speaks (together with pokemons, of all things, although not uniquely - the zodar also has one) that does not require Rich to have given it a language it doesn't posses and have had to lampshade it.

Grey Wolf

I think I disagree with your conclusion there. The BGHs are surprised at the speech at all, not that it is speaking to them, specifically. If you were to speak french* to another french speaker in front of me, that would still be talking, even though I would have no capacity to understand you.

*whether you actually can speak french is beside the point. I cannot, therefore it serves.

[Crusher]

Apropos of nothing, but odds-and-evens is the superior hand game. It seamlessly allows for multiple players.

I might give that a try. To be honest, I haven't played Rock-Paper-Scissors in years, having migrated over to Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock which is also superior albeit not useful for multiple players.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think I disagree with your conclusion there. The BGHs are surprised at the speech at all, not that it is speaking to them, specifically. If you were to speak french* to another french speaker in front of me, that would still be talking, even though I would have no capacity to understand you.

*whether you actually can speak french is beside the point. I cannot, therefore it serves.

French has a rhythm to it, a pattern. That's what makes it a language. Whether or not you can understand it, you can probably hazard a guess at the fact it is French. Or at least latin-derived. Same with any other language. But not with protean, which, again, definitionally, is not something anyone else can understand. And also definitionally changes so quickly it has no pattern to it. To everyone but proteans is just a noise with no structure, pattern or any other of the requisites for language ("words used in a structured and conventional way" - versus protean's lack of structure or convention).

Also, that wasn't my conclusion.

GW

[halfeye]

Then we're not understanding each other, because I feel like this wasn't my intent. Traditionally what happens from this point is that people try to tell me what I meant, because words have meaning. I'm not allowed to be using a word colloquially, in a way particular to my dialect, or even improperly. The last one hurts. People seem to prefer that I meant something crazy over me just not being good with words.

Charles Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll) has this whole speach by an idiot about words meaning what the speaker wants them to mean, and Alice, the author insert, disagrees.

[Tubercular Ox]

I know you're being dramatic, but why would you view it this way? Its a guessing game. Being wrong at this should carry approximately as much shame as losing a game of rock-paper-scissors.

I was expecting Kish to say something much more insulting to me directly, that was the self-own I was thinking of, not my choice of candidate.

But he pulled way back on the rhetoric when it came time to write something down. I wish he could be this conciliatory all the time. I mean, I don't know the meanings of all the words involved, but I could be brought to the table on some of this stuff.

It feels a little weird saying this as I've been engaged in this for a good decade-plus, but I wonder if you might be a little too invested?

Listen to the refrain: Y'all have never understood me, I have never understood you, I get assigned opinions that aren't mine, blablabla.

What is the appropriate response to that? I don't know that there is one. If I just kick the dirt and walk away, it's, what, sour grapes? If I never give up on explaining myself, we get this.

And I'm sorry to say this, since it's aggressive, but you have to imagine that I think I'm right, and I have ever since Rich revealed a blue carbuncle as a joke on some merch. People are starting to agree with me that the party is too large, so it looks like the party is about to split up, too. I'm not getting strong feedback from Rich that I'm wrong in how I think, and given how quickly Ruck and Kish acted to immortalize my (not actual) failure with the blue carbuncle, I'm also getting feedback that those aren't the people to listen to.

"Why not just keep track of them all?" I hear you ask.

Hahaha, no you didn't. But thank you for the answer.

Charles Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll) has this whole speach by an idiot about words meaning what the speaker wants them to mean, and Alice, the author insert, disagrees.

So in response to my claim that people assign me opinions that aren't mine and argue with them instead of me, you assign me the opinions of an idiot and #include an entire childhood story instead of engaging with me.

[Precure]

If MitD is a Hunting Horror I would feel cheated.

[Kish]

But more importantly, the crucial factor here is not that they have a weird way to communicate amongst themselves, it is that proteans can communicate telepathically, can speak every language, and yet don't because they are extreme xenophobes. That one would speak to the hunters, and in basic no less, is extremely surprising.

Yes, I agree with the more-importantly part.

(And note that we're back to efforts to knock the protean off the table, apparently. I wasn't buying that we'd actually get off the subject either. Worth a shot though.)

[Ruck]

What does it mean to hit the lightest? You picked a definition that requires believing Rich is trying to convey a particular house rule that's necessary to understand what's going on in the scene. I picked a definition that's dependent only on D&D instincts and the stat block we know Rich is looking at anyways.

What you're actually saying is, "when the MitD proposed a game that I understood to mean one thing, he actually meant something I didn't understand," and yes, I'll sign on to that. That's exactly what I'm saying. You got it wrong.

I think it's pretty clear that "lightest" means "lightest"; the closest appropriate definition I can find in Merriam-Webster is "exerting a minimum of force or pressure." So I take it to mean "who can hit the lightest" means "who can hit with the least force."

Or maybe you didn't, I don't know. Bottom line is the scene has more than one interpretation, and since stonewalling over one particular interpretation is not creating consensus in the thread, maybe it's time to consider other interpretations and look at different candidates.

Then propose an alternate definition and a creature that fits by that definition and also still fits the big scenes. As far as I can tell right now, you're just asking people to think about the possibilities of alternate definitions, explanations, and meanings, but not actually trying to use them to get to an answer. Are you trying to determine what the MitD is most likely to be, or are you just trying to have a discussion about how you think many things are widely open to interpretation?

Preach it!

Your analysis ignores everything about the MitD's well-demonstrated personality and other personal traits. You can look to the mechanics for whether MitD is capable of the actions he performs, but unless you think all members of a species have the same personality and that personality is in their stat blocks, this argument just doesn't wash. (Even less so in a story where the author has been very explicit about his belief in, and the themes of the story of, not judging a sapient creature merely by their race.)

But, again, you are still not actually trying to propose something that fits-- the Hunting Horror doesn't-- you are just trying to tear down the Protean. As I already said:

But all roads in this thread lead back to trying to determine what the MitD's species is. Thus, if an alternate idea for how the storytelling process might have unfolded-- like yours-- doesn't include a creature that would fit MitD if that was indeed the process (say, a creature that has a non-base attack that is weak but can still launch its targets a great distance), then I'm unclear how it gets us any closer to the answer, or what you are trying to get us to think about that would help our process in determining the answer.

If the things you're talking about aren't in service of trying to find a better fit for MitD's species, then what is your goal here?

Listen to the refrain: Y'all have never understood me, I have never understood you, I get assigned opinions that aren't mine, blablabla.

I can think of at least five people off the top of my head you have misquoted, mis-paraphrased, and thus mis-assigned opinions to that aren't theirs-- and in some cases you have insisted you were correct to do so, or that you have some rule against looking up what they actually said and therefore your paraphrasing should be good enough.

How often does that have to happen before you start to consider that it's you, not them?

(Indeed, considering your complaints that "the Protean has ruined the thread"-- even setting aside your presumption of speaking for many other people there-- have you considered that the only reason we're discussing the Protean today is because you brought it up?)

But more importantly, the crucial factor here is not that they have a weird way to communicate amongst themselves, it is that proteans can communicate telepathically, can speak every language, and yet don't because they are extreme xenophobes. That one would speak to the hunters, and in basic no less, is extremely surprising. Not because it can't, but because the normal way every protean interacts with a non-shapeshifter is by attacking.

So no, I disagree that it is a con. It is, in my opinion, a pro.

I'll second this.

"Why not just keep track of them all?" I hear you ask. Well, because I was doing it to have fun (my wife is occasionally openly appalled at what I consider "fun"), and keeping track of them all in a spreadsheet somewhere would have made it less fun for me, so I didn't.

Well, now, I'm appalled that you don't find keeping spreadsheets of your hobbies fun.

(Admittedly, I'm the kind of person who, after our Excel training on formulas and such at my job, thought, "Cool, I can use this to automate the breakdowns of my poker results in so many ways!")

[Errorname]

Your analysis ignores everything about the MitD's well-demonstrated personality and other personal traits. You can look to the mechanics for whether MitD is capable of the actions he performs, but unless you think all members of a species have the same personality and that personality is in their stat blocks, this argument just doesn't wash. (Even less so in a story where the author has been very explicit about his belief in, and the themes of the story of, not judging a sapient creature merely by their race.)

Something that has been confirmed over and over again in the comic is that the MitD deviates from expected behaviour and personality from the rest of his taxon. If we found a stat block that matched MitD's general personality that would be strong evidence against, because MitD does not behave like he is supposed to.

[Ruck]

Something that has been confirmed over and over again in the comic is that the MitD deviates from expected behaviour and personality from the rest of his taxon. If we found a stat block that matched MitD's general personality that would be strong evidence against, because MitD does not behave like he is supposed to.

Yeah, I agree.

I'm just trying to underline that there is a difference between what MitD is capable of mechanically doing based on his species, which is defined in the rulebooks, and MitD's personality, which is clearly unique to him and not defined by his species.

[Crusher]

Well, now, I'm appalled that you don't find keeping spreadsheets of your hobbies fun.

The funny thing is that I 100% do make spreadsheets of my hobbies, its just that I usually make them to figure out the answer to a question rather than track information. Once I've figured out the answer, I know it, and figure I no longer need the spreadsheet and don't save it. /shrug.

[Ruck]

The funny thing is that I 100% do make spreadsheets of my hobbies, its just that I usually make them to figure out the answer to a question rather than track information. Once I've figured out the answer, I know it, and figure I no longer need the spreadsheet and don't save it. /shrug.

As may have been implied by my own posts, I use them to track lots of information. (Not only in poker, but also for, say, the various countdowns and lists I write up for TV and music, to make sure I don't forget anything. Or for, like, statistical breakdowns of NFL Draft prospects. And probably there are other things, but I feel like I've divulged too much about my interests already.)