MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Tubercular Ox]

If I were a DM trying to find the monster that hit the lightest for some special encounter I was planning, I would consider monsters who did the least damage with their weakest basic attack, without considering special rules for how a monster might pull its punch, since such don't exist.

[b_jonas]

Doesn't comic #1248 contradict the idea that we've never seen anybody teleport through a wall?

Oh, true! Good point. So at least Dimension Door doesn't leave a hole, and probably wizard Teleportation doesn't either. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Ruck]

If I were a DM trying to find the monster that hit the lightest for some special encounter I was planning

I think you're getting the causality backwards.

Rich has a monster he wants the MitD to be for the purposes of the story. He decides to write a scene where the MitD inadvertently helps Miko escape imprisonment. As the MitD's species is strong enough to feasibly punch someone through a wall, that's what Rich uses.

[Mordar]

I cannot speak for "people", but the OP operates under the assumption that the tower scene is intended as a clue, which means the author communicating a fact about MitD. Given that MitD establishes the rules of the game as "hitting lightly" and the result is creatures punched through a wall, I conclude that the author's intention is to communicate great strength.

Over the years, people who were proposing creatures with lacklustre strength have either attempted to claim that the tower scene was not a clue at all, or come up with alternative explanations, neither of which have ever been particularly persuasive.

Grey Wolf

I can certainly accept it as show of strength, particularly as show of strength that doesn't yet have fine control (e.g. young/untrained). I can also accept that MitD is smarter than it seems and it wanted to get Miko/Windstrider out of the imminent nasty death, and found a good way to do so. I put that at a certainly outside chance...but thought it might be part of why catapulting even a level-advanced human body through a stone tower wall (maybe it was stucco painted like stone) and then far enough away to render them itty bitty and high above the ground didn't turn them into Guard characters also seeking a raise.

If I were a DM trying to find the monster that hit the lightest for some special encounter I was planning, I would consider monsters who did the least damage with their weakest basic attack, without considering special rules for how a monster might pull its punch, since such don't exist.

I think you're getting the causality backwards.

Rich has a monster he wants the MitD to be for the purposes of the story. He decides to write a scene where the MitD inadvertently helps Miko escape imprisonment. As the MitD's species is strong enough to feasibly punch someone through a wall, that's what Rich uses.

Right - I believe it plausible it was showing several things - strength, control (lack), naivete, good will, humor. Or maybe cool reality warping powers, because MitD is baby Franklin Richards wearing a generic black and yellow costume. Because jokes about 70s era generic groceries and staples make them less sadifying.

- M

[Tubercular Ox]

Rich has a monster he wants the MitD to be for the purposes of the story. He decides to write a scene where the MitD inadvertently helps Miko escape imprisonment. As the MitD's species is strong enough to feasibly punch someone through a wall, that's what Rich uses.

Rich is looking at his chosen monster and wants an excuse for it to use its lightest attack instead of its hardest one, because it is not a punch and would hit farther than its actual punch would, if physics were allowed to apply. So he invents a hit-the-lightest game, and the monster uses the attack with the most leverage instead of the most damage, which creates good visuals for a monster in the dark.

Please accept this as just a story and not an attempt to persuade you of anything other than the ability to tell multiple stories.

[Keltest]

Rich is looking at his chosen monster and wants an excuse for it to use its lightest attack instead of its hardest one, because it is not a punch and would hit farther than its actual punch would, if physics were allowed to apply. So he invents a hit-the-lightest game, and the monster uses the attack with the most leverage instead of the most damage, which creates good visuals for a monster in the dark.

Please accept this as just a story and not an attempt to persuade you of anything other than the ability to tell multiple stories.

Ok, but... youre wrong. Just, flat out wrong. We already know what Rich's goal with the Tower Scene was because he told us as much: he wanted to demonstrate that the MITD was in fact capable of living up to the hype that Xykon had for it.

[Tubercular Ox]

Ok, but... youre wrong. Just, flat out wrong. We already know what Rich's goal with the Tower Scene was because he told us as much: he wanted to demonstrate that the MITD was in fact capable of living up to the hype that Xykon had for it.

Didn't it do that? It withstood a whole bunch of attacks and then whacked Miko very, very far. Which demonstrated its strength without having to draw any troublesome attacks like biting or punching.

For the story, maybe Rich saw first that hitting Miko very, very far would demonstrate that it is strong without requiring him to draw her being bitten or punched, then had to engineer a story around it choosing to hit her very, very far instead of punching or biting her.

Honestly I really hate trying to pick an order in which I think an author had his ideas, so this is probably going to sink quickly.

Bottom line: Rich picked the best attack for showing off the monster's strength while keeping it in the dark. It also happened to be its lightest attack, and Rich engineered the scene to let him use it.

But that's just my story. Still not asking anyone but me to believe it. It's meant to demonstrate that there isn't just one way to tell the story.

[Kish]

Rich is looking at his chosen monster and wants an excuse for it to use its lightest attack instead of its hardest one, because it is not a punch and would hit farther than its actual punch would, if physics were allowed to apply. So he invents a hit-the-lightest game, and the monster uses the attack with the most leverage instead of the most damage, which creates good visuals for a monster in the dark.

Please accept this as just a story and not an attempt to persuade you of anything other than the ability to tell multiple stories.

I think it impoverishes the story--whether the story which Rich is telling, or a different story someone else is telling--to treat all the characterization in the tower scene as the author going "oops, this piece will go over there unless pushed in a different direction and I want it over here, I'd better handwave some way to change its direction."

[Tubercular Ox]

I think it impoverishes the story--whether the story which Rich is telling, or a different story someone else is telling--to treat all the characterization in the tower scene as the author going "oops, this piece will go over there unless pushed in a different direction and I want it over here, I'd better handwave some way to change its direction."

I'm uncertain how you think being an author works. This is the only thing authors do.

[Ruck]

Rich is looking at his chosen monster and wants an excuse for it to use its lightest attack instead of its hardest one, because it is not a punch and would hit farther than its actual punch would, if physics were allowed to apply. So he invents a hit-the-lightest game, and the monster uses the attack with the most leverage instead of the most damage, which creates good visuals for a monster in the dark.

And in that case, what creature fits that?

Please accept this as just a story and not an attempt to persuade you of anything other than the ability to tell multiple stories.

The entire purpose of this thread is to try to determine what the Monster in the Dark is. If you're not trying to be convincing that what you've written is a plausible scenario, I am unclear as to your purpose in writing it.

I think it impoverishes the story--whether the story which Rich is telling, or a different story someone else is telling--to treat all the characterization in the tower scene as the author going "oops, this piece will go over there unless pushed in a different direction and I want it over here, I'd better handwave some way to change its direction."

I'm uncertain how you think being an author works. This is the only thing authors do.

I think if the MitD didn't actually have the strength to cause the tower scene as it exists, Rich would have the MitD facilitate Miko's escape another way, rather than handwaving that MitD doesn't have the capacity to do what he's demonstrated to be doing.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think if the MitD didn't actually have the strength to cause the tower scene as it exists, Rich would have the MitD facilitate Miko's escape another way, rather than handwaving that MitD doesn't have the capacity to do what he's demonstrated to be doing.

I really don't understand this comment. I said that the Monster in the Dark could have used its lightest attack to hit Miko very, very far. How did this become, "It doesn't have the strength to cause the tower scene" ?

[woweedd]

I really don't understand this comment. I said that the Monster in the Dark could have used its lightest attack to hit Miko very, very far. How did this become, "It doesn't have the strength to cause the tower scene" ?

Because no one can tell what you mean. Care to calirfy what point you're making?

[Kish]

I'm uncertain how you think being an author works. This is the only thing authors do.

Add "really crappy" before "authors" and y'might be right.

For decent authors, there's this thing called characterization. Which I actually already referenced in the post you're replying to so...if you are truly unclear on how I think being an author works and want to know, I think you have the pieces to put it together. Roy's fixation on his sword, Vaarsuvius' longwindedness and the casual sadism they demonstrated since early in the comic, Elan's well-meaning idiocy and cheerfulness, the creature in the dark being someone who would suggest playing a child's game with someone who is trying to have a deadly serious good vs. evil confrontation, Miko being the kind of person who always tries to have a deadly serious good vs. evil confrontation and doesn't pay enough attention to consider if a confrontation is truly necessary at all: all of those are important parts of those characters, none of them are tools for the kind of crude handwaving you're proposing.

[Tubercular Ox]

Add "really crappy" before "authors" and y'might be right.

For decent authors, there's this thing called characterization. Which I actually already referenced in the post you're replying to so...if you are truly unclear on how I think being an author works and want to know, I think you have the pieces to put it together. Roy's fixation on his sword, Vaarsuvius' longwindedness and the casual sadism they demonstrated since early in the comic, Elan's well-meaning idiocy and cheerfulness, the creature in the dark being someone who would suggest playing a child's game with someone who is trying to have a deadly serious good vs. evil confrontation, Miko being the kind of person who always tries to have a deadly serious good vs. evil confrontation and doesn't pay enough attention to consider if a confrontation is truly necessary at all: all of those are important parts of those characters, none of them are tools for the kind of crude handwaving you're proposing.

And that one time when Rich told us he has rearranged entire scenes to make sure that Durkon can say "this" instead of "tha", is that crude handwaving? Because engineering a scene to have the desired effect is kinda what I'm thinking of.

[Kish]

You'll need to quote or link if you want me to have an opinion there, Ox. That description doesn't sound like it has any handles to search through the Index of the Giant's Comments for.

[Crusher]

Rich is looking at his chosen monster and wants an excuse for it to use its lightest attack instead of its hardest one, because it is not a punch and would hit farther than its actual punch would, if physics were allowed to apply. So he invents a hit-the-lightest game, and the monster uses the attack with the most leverage instead of the most damage, which creates good visuals for a monster in the dark.

Please accept this as just a story and not an attempt to persuade you of anything other than the ability to tell multiple stories.

I don't understand. Is there a monster that has those attributes? Or are you arguing that we shouldn't rely on anything we know about MitD because its possible to construct a possible alternative based on narrative choices the Giant might choose to make?

If there isn't such a monster, then this is just making the guessing game more complicated based on narrative choices the Giant *might* make. Which isn't really plausible, because we don't know what story he's telling and therefore don't know what story points he'd want to emphasize with MitD.

[Ruck]

I really don't understand this comment. I said that the Monster in the Dark could have used its lightest attack to hit Miko very, very far. How did this become, "It doesn't have the strength to cause the tower scene" ?

You may note that I split up your post into several sections based on the different lines of conversation going on and what I had to say about them. If you'll read the two quotes above the comment you quoted, you'll see that it's in response to the idea that the kind of handwaving it would take to make MitD fit into a scene where his power's don't fit is something Rich might find necessary here (let alone as "the only thing authors do"). I don't think it is; I think if Rich's MitD couldn't make the tower scene happen as it stands with the set of powers he has, Rich would just have written the scene differently, rather than trying to find a way to fudge details or invent some reason MitD actually could make it happen.

[Errorname]

Rich is looking at his chosen monster and wants an excuse for it to use its lightest attack instead of its hardest one.

I interpreted this as less "this is the least amount of force the MITD is capable of using" and more "the MITD doesn't know how to pull his punches and has poor self-control"

[Kish]

If there was some indication of the creature hitting significantly differently in any other case, I'd be on board with looking for an explanation for the difference. But as it is, I'm not seeing why "he hits Miko and Windstriker and Loonie Tunes physics take effect" points to anything other than "he's massively strong."

[Ruck]

I interpreted this as less "this is the least amount of force the MITD is capable of using" and more "the MITD doesn't know how to pull his punches and has poor self-control"

In either case, the message seems to be that MitD is extremely strong, unless someone has a better explanation.

[lio45]

I really don't understand this comment. I said that the Monster in the Dark could have used its lightest attack to hit Miko very, very far. How did this become, "It doesn't have the strength to cause the tower scene" ?

Remind us, what exactly is your theory to explain how the HH did the Tower Scene?

I'm willing to be open-minded so I'll already lay my rules, even before hearing you: to explain the scene in a satisfactory way, a proposed creature must have either super-high STR (the obvious explanation) or else, stretching it but still viable IMO, it needs to be a really strong power to make people fly (telekinesis or similar) that can plausibly be activated by accident (given that MitD is a juvenile and already has been shown to have a poor mastery of his own powers, I could accept that; Rich gave us a lot of clues about the fact that MitD can accidentally use his powers).

[Errorname]

In either case, the message seems to be that MitD is extremely strong, unless someone has a better explanation.

Sure, but I think Ox is interpreting it as "the tower scene is demonstrating the strength of the MiTD's weakest attack ability" which isn't unreasonable but isn't the only explanation.

[Ruck]

Rich is looking at his chosen monster and wants an excuse for it to use its lightest attack instead of its hardest one, because it is not a punch and would hit farther than its actual punch would, if physics were allowed to apply. So he invents a hit-the-lightest game, and the monster uses the attack with the most leverage instead of the most damage, which creates good visuals for a monster in the dark.

Please accept this as just a story and not an attempt to persuade you of anything other than the ability to tell multiple stories.

But that's just my story. Still not asking anyone but me to believe it. It's meant to demonstrate that there isn't just one way to tell the story.

I don't think anyone is questioning the idea, in the abstract, that there's more than one way to tell the story. But all roads in this thread lead back to trying to determine what the MitD's species is. Thus, if an alternate idea for how the storytelling process might have unfolded-- like yours-- doesn't include a creature that would fit MitD if that was indeed the process (say, a creature that has a non-base attack that is weak but can still launch its targets a great distance), then I'm unclear how it gets us any closer to the answer, or what you are trying to get us to think about that would help our process in determining the answer.

(Aside, to my best understanding of this line of conversation, and without actually finding the comment in question: I don't think rewriting dialogue to emphasize Durkon's accent is the same as MitD using some obscure power that doesn't really fit the "hit the lightest" game he proposed, at all.)

[Mordar]

In either case, the message seems to be that MitD is extremely strong, unless someone has a better explanation.

That's where I was going with my question about the damage taken by the initial punch, plus blasting through a defensive tower's wall, plus fall from a height that looks to be 10s of Miko's high with horizontal distance of significance, plus having a thousand pounds of warhorse land on your head came from.

So not suggesting MitD isn't strong...suggesting this wasn't *JUST* a strong punch.

- M

[Ruck]

That's where I was going with my question about the damage taken by the initial punch, plus blasting through a defensive tower's wall, plus fall from a height that looks to be 10s of Miko's high with horizontal distance of significance, plus having a thousand pounds of warhorse land on your head came from.

So not suggesting MitD isn't strong...suggesting this wasn't *JUST* a strong punch.

- M

I'm not sure exactly how it suggests that.

And I don't know a whole lot about D&D mechanics, but as I understand it, falling damage is capped at a certain point anyway. And Miko is a pretty tough paladin. I imagine she has a ton of hit points and/or maybe got a few fortunate rolls on that falling damage. (No idea how you'd calculate the damage from Windstriker landing on her.)

And speaking of not understanding D&D mechanics, I was trying to figure out how, for example, the Protean's attack would work in a situation like this, and this is from the SRD (leaving out the Full Attack entry since I think it's reasonable to assume MitD is not full attacking if he's trying to hit as likely as he can) and I found this:

Base Attack/Grapple: +33/+58
Attack: Slam +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20)

And I'm now realizing I don't know exactly how to interpret it. (A Protean also has Strength of 53, for what that's worth.)

[Mordar]

I'm not sure exactly how it suggests that.

The lack of red or black hashmarks on Miko after the landing is the primary impetus...that and the magnitude of the physics involved. The drop must be about as far as Roy's dip off a certain undead dragon, by my reckoning. Bursting the perfectly shaped holes in the wall is a totally understandable homage to decades of Saturday morning cartoons...but even that gives me a little lean towards "maybe there is more than brute strength involved here".

- M

[Ruck]

The lack of red or black hashmarks on Miko after the landing is the primary impetus...that and the magnitude of the physics involved. The drop must be about as far as Roy's dip off a certain undead dragon, by my reckoning. Bursting the perfectly shaped holes in the wall is a totally understandable homage to decades of Saturday morning cartoons...but even that gives me a little lean towards "maybe there is more than brute strength involved here".

- M

I mean, I get the part about Miko not being as damaged as it seems she should be; I'm just not sure what we should infer from that (other than that Miko is very durable).

Roy had also taken a Meteor Swarm before he fell, which is almost certainly going to be more damage than MitD's hit on Miko.

[Gurgeh]

And I'm now realizing I don't know exactly how to interpret it. (A Protean also has Strength of 53, for what that's worth.)

The "base attack" effectively refers to the pure "accuracy" of any attacks the Protean's would make before its strength or dexterity are taken into account; the Grapple entry is that same base attack value plus the modifier for its size. The specific entry below for the slam attack factors in the Protean's strength (53 strength has a modifier of +21 - you take 10 away from the stat value and then halve it, rounded down) - so the to-hit modifier is 33 from its base attack bonus, plus 21 from its strength modifier.

[Kish]

Considering the already-battered Vaarsuvius super should not have survived this Meteor Swarm, I do not think Miko not being that badly hurt after being knocked out of the tower and drinking an unspecified number of healing potions indicates anything except that actually depicting her drinking a bunch of potions is a concession to hit point totals Rich doesn't usually make.

(And before you say something like "what? The meteors didn't hit Vaarsuvius!" read Meteor Swarm's description, in 3.5 and not some randomly chosen other edition of D&D, if you please. Unless you want to argue that Vaarsuvius was further than 40 feet away from those meteors when they hit, that'll be 24d6 fire damage.)

[Timy]

that'll be 24d6 fire damage.)

Halved by reflex save.

That means 12 damages !