MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Metastachydium]

Mm, I'm not sure that's how I interpret that. The most satisfying for him, sure. Shocking and unexpected, sure - but even then we don't know why he considers it's going to be.

Well, the newest comic out at that point was no. 980, so well after V being revealed as the worst mass murderer in history (so far) and the Snarl attacking Laurin, among other things, and a mere 17 comice before Plan B.

If that tells you the reveal (described by the author himself as an "I know the strip is going to shock everyone" class event that "may be the best of them all", emphases mine) can very well literally be the "little tidbit" I've seen it dismissed as… I'm not sure how you interpret it either.

[Mordar]

Well, the newest comic out at that point was no. 980, so well after V being revealed as the worst mass murderer in history (so far) and the Snarl attacking Laurin, among other things, and a mere 17 comice before Plan B.

If that tells you the reveal (described by the author himself as an "I know the strip is going to shock everyone" class event that "may be the best of them all", emphases mine) can very well literally be the "little tidbit" I've seen it dismissed as… I'm not sure how you interpret it either.

It seems he expects it to be dramatic.

- M

[Ruck]

If that tells you the reveal (described by the author himself as an "I know the strip is going to shock everyone" class event that "may be the best of them all", emphases mine) can very well literally be the "little tidbit" I've seen it dismissed as… I'm not sure how you interpret it either.

It seems he expects it to be dramatic.

- M

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting at, the possible tautological obviousness of that aside. Perhaps this will help: I think Rich's intent in that answer is better understood when formatted like this:

Which strip was the most fun for you to make?

I don't know that "fun" really enters into it as much as "satisfying." And for those, it's the ones where I've been imagining and laying the foundation for a singular surprise for years and I finally get to pull the trigger.

• Girard's pyramid blowing up one panel after Xykon arrives was a big one,
• as was Malack's vampire reveal.
• Anything where I know the strip is going to shock everyone.
• I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now, so I expect that may be the best of them all.

Which is to say I don't think "anything where I know the strip is going to shock everyone" describes the MitD reveal. I think they are both entries in the list of strips he finds most satisfying to make.

[Kish]

I agree with Ruck.

To rephrase this, are people who don't care about D&D statistics supposed to recognize the monster, or is it enough that they learn people who do care about D&D statistics recognize it?

All Rich has committed himself to is that it is possible to guess what the creature is and it's not something he made up. As long as it fits the latter criterion, he could actually be something nobody recognizes, until Redcloak says the species name and the first person to Google it says "It's from one of Fred Saberhagen's lesser-known novels!"

Rich will find the reveal satisfying, but I will be surprised if as much as 50% of that satisfaction is about what his species is, rather than the circumstances of the reveal and what he's doing at the time.

[Yendor]

All Rich has committed himself to is that it is possible to guess what the creature is and it's not something he made up. As long as it fits the latter criterion, he could actually be something nobody recognizes, until Redcloak says the species name and the first person to Google it says "It's from one of Fred Saberhagen's lesser-known novels!"

He also said he trusts someone will figure it out, so presumably he expects at least one person to recognize it.

<sarcasm>Wait, no, I've got it. It's obviously Old Man Greenhilt. Everything can be explained with illusions, probably. And he would have gotten away with it, etc, etc. </sarcasm>

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He also said he trusts someone will figure it out, so presumably he expects at least one person to recognize it.

Yes, he fully expects to have at least one reader that has the complete collection of Fred Saberhagen's novels.

GW

[Ruck]

I know more about Bret Saberhagen than Fred Saberhagen, but given the extensive amount of work that has gone into these threads over the years, and what that says about how much effort we'll put into figuring out a mystery like this, I'm not surprised Rich expected at least one reader would figure it out.

[Kardwill]

Rich will find the reveal satisfying, but I will be surprised if as much as 50% of that satisfaction is about what his species is, rather than the circumstances of the reveal and what he's doing at the time.

Yeah, the narrative around the MitD shifted over the years from "What is the MitD?" to "Who is the MitD?", and the fact he's a person making his own decisions.

In fact, until I saw the quote about the future reveal, I totally was convinced that the MitD's nature would remain a mystery ^^
(with the MitD himself deciding he finally think stepping out of the shadow wasn't important anymore).

[Tubercular Ox]

In fact, until I saw the quote about the future reveal, I totally was convinced that the MitD's nature would remain a mystery ^^
(with the MitD himself deciding he finally think stepping out of the shadow wasn't important anymore).

This is a new idea to me, fun to learn. Maybe I'm just slow.

Rich puts significant effort into writing the story he wants to tell the best he can. He does not write to meet audience expectations; the audience has come because they want to read what he wants to write.

Yes, exactly. This is as much motivation as I've ever needed to ask people who like the story what they expect from the ending.

How does it do that?

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people know there is a better than chance possibility that what fans like to read is going to have some overlap with what Rich likes to write, and they choose to ignore the feelings of others anyways.

You can ask but that doesn't mean you get an accurate answer concerning OotS readership as a whole because most readers don't post on the forum.

Thank you, but I'm not really interested in collecting statistics. If there positively, absolutely, must be a science-y metaphor for what I'm doing, let's call it qualitative research. But really I'm just asking people questions because I'm interested in their answers.

Granted you don't seem to be searching for an accurate answer but asking because not do so would reflect negatively on Rich somehow.

I don't know what you mean by this.

For my part, I don't care what kind of Monster MitD is as I find his character develpoment way more interesting.

Would you like to talk about it? I've already said I think his characterization is the only thing he has to be present for. I'll also say a character arc is the only thing he can't avoid having in the story.

I would love the thoughts of someone who doesn't have to pretend not to care about what D&D monster it is.

[mashlagoo1982]

I'm going to go all nit-pick-ity and point out that "understand" is a step under "speak". I more-or-less understand french (if spoken slowly, or if I read it) but it has been a long time since I was able to speak it in any capacity (and by "any" I mean "DELF 2"). The SBGH aren't so much surprised they are being understood as much as the creature is talking back.

It still makes little sense, mind you, but still, nits have been picked.

(Thanks for finding the post, btw)

GW

I never noticed that before. I wonder if it is somehow reflected in the game itself... or if it was just a poor wording decision.

As cool as I think it is, I don't think it really helps to narrow down candidates.

The problem is, this is all subjective. "May as well be" is not the same thing as "is." And considering a creature "something only Rich and maybe twenty other people know about" is not something you know objectively; it's just a feeling you have. Similarly, "recognizable" is a subjective standard you have that isn't well-defined.

That's all well and good for your personal opinion, but it doesn't give us any real objective standard by which to evaluate a species as a fit (like, say, the powers MitD has shown do).

I admit it is completely subjective. I only used it as a way to push back while researching candidates. Even with a name, there were some I couldn't find much information about after a couple hours of research. I would think, "If it's this hard to find information about, would Rich really use it for the identity of MitD?"

[Keltest]

I admit it is completely subjective. I only used it as a way to push back while researching candidates. Even with a name, there were some I couldn't find much information about after a couple hours of research. I would think, "If it's this hard to find information about, would Rich really use it for the identity of MitD?"

The answer is almost certainly yes, as long as it suited his needs. He picked it for its story purposes, not for its suitability as a guessing game.

[Tzardok]

I never noticed that before. I wonder if it is somehow reflected in the game itself... or if it was just a poor wording decision.

Of course it's reflected. Many creatures are described as understanding one language or another, but not being able to talk normally. Pegasi, for example.

[LadyEowyn]

Now, I'm not an expert at reading 2e stat block, but from what I've seen the brewer of the 3.5 version tried to make it as faithful a conversion as possible. The main differences I noticed are three small details: the 2e version is Gargantuan instead of Huge (though I don't know wether the borders between the sizes have changed), it has an ability to deal extra damage to buildings that got replaced with Trample, and its Nightmare ability is psionic, instead of spell-like (and therefore not affected by the whole defiling magic thing).

If you want to compare them for yourself, you can find the stats here.

The nightmare beast fits best for me of the suggestions I’ve seen, even though I can’t explain everything based on game mechanics, because it matches so many of the characteristics of MITD that have been repeatedly emphasized. I feel like the hints Rich is intentionally giving us track really well with it.

MITD eats a ton, and eats completely indiscrimately; he also says his father ate a lot. The nightmare beast is mentioned as having an overwhelming appetite:

Nightmare beasts only rest in their lairs for short periods, usually no more that 6 hours at a time. The rest of their time is spent roaming the area near their lairs and feeding….When a nightmare beast roams the area surrounding its lair, its main purpose is to feed itself. These creatures eat nearly anything, both animal and vegetable. Entire herds of erdlus and kanks have been killed when a nightmare beast has come across them while feeding.

MITD says that his father was very big, and it’s been mentioned a few different times (including calendars, and Oona’s comment) that he’s really small for his species type.

Oona is very impressed with MITD as a terrifying beast, which in my opinion fits the nightmare beast (very rare, very dangerous, very cool-looking) really well. Given other creatures Oona’s been shown with in calendars (like remorhaz, which she also mentions eating), that’s a high bar.

MITD is incredible hard to damage. Nightmare beasts are almost impervious to damage: The extremely thick skin of a nightmare beast provides it with incredible protection against attack (AC -5). In addition, only +1 or better weapons have any affect on the creature.

It’s got an ability to destroy buildings by smashing into them; this could be easily houseruled to produce the earthquake effect.

Similarly, the nightmare effect could be houseruled in ways that plausibly lead to the reactions we see in the circus scene.

And it’s got a teleport ability.

I just don’t think the eating, the size, and the really-cool-and-scary-looking characteristics would be emphasized if they weren’t hints.

[Ruck]

Yes, exactly. This is as much motivation as I've ever needed to ask people who like the story what they expect from the ending.

Insofar as Rich wants us to like the story, though, he's not writing it in hopes of pleasing us; he's writing the story he wants to write.

Refusing to investigate other people’s expectations for the reveal assumes that Rich is no better than chance at entertaining us.

How does it do that?

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people know there is a better than chance possibility that what fans like to read is going to have some overlap with what Rich likes to write, and they choose to ignore the feelings of others anyways.

I don't know if you're right or wrong because I still don't understand what you meant.

The answer is almost certainly yes, as long as it suited his needs. He picked it for its story purposes, not for its suitability as a guessing game.

Yeah, I think it's important to keep in mind that the guessing game is not the point of MitD.

[Errorname]

The nightmare beast fits best for me of the suggestions I’ve seen, even though I can’t explain everything based on game mechanics, because it matches so many of the characteristics of MITD that have been repeatedly emphasized. I feel like the hints Rich is intentionally giving us track really well with it.

Something about the Nightmare Beast is that I don't think the reveal would really change anything about our understanding of MITD. The Protean theory is still my favourite because it's well grounded in a dramatic logic. The Nightmare Beast feels like it'd just be a 'Oh, so that's what he looks like' reveal.

Rich is so confident that this reveal is going to be worth the wait, I kind of expect more. Now, maybe there are things about the Nightmare Beast I don't fully recognize that make it cooler than I give it credit for, or maybe the moment of the reveal will be so dramatic that the MITD could turn out to be a Springbok and it'd still be the coolest thing you've ever seen, but at least as I understand it the Nightmare beast doesn't feel dramatic enough.

[Ruck]

I don't know if you're right or wrong because I still don't understand what you meant.

My best stab at understanding it is: I don't think you can disentangle reader expectations for the story from the fact that the readers have stuck with the story this long.

I think the readers expect the story to be satisfying, and that Rich expects the readers to be satisfied, but that doesn't mean he's writing to please them. It means that the readership, at this point, are the people who have stuck with the story this long, because they want to read this story, because they've decided it's good enough and they're invested enough in it, as it has been written by Rich, to see it to the end. And so, broadly, their expectations are that the rest of the story, the climax and conclusion, etc. will be of a piece with that.

I don't know what more specific expectations readers have, and I'm not sure those matter, in any case.

Nightmare beasts only rest in their lairs for short periods, usually no more that 6 hours at a time.

See, that doesn't track with MitD being lazy and sleeping a lot.

I just don’t think the eating, the size, and the really-cool-and-scary-looking characteristics would be emphasized if they weren’t hints.

The size seems pretty explainable as him being a juvenile (which also fits with his attitudes and behavior) of any species, and also, pretty much everything proposed is going to be something someone finds cool and scary.

Something about the Nightmare Beast is that I don't think the reveal would really change anything about our understanding of MITD. The Protean theory is still my favourite because it's well grounded in a dramatic logic. The Nightmare Beast feels like it'd just be a 'Oh, so that's what he looks like' reveal.

I do like this, of course, but honestly, the fact that we don't even know if a version of the Nightmare Beast that makes for a good fit even exists is an even bigger con for me. I suppose you could try to finale or jury-rig a conversion to 3.5. And at that point, "I converted a 2ed monster that happens to convert in a way that fits all the big scenes" seems like it's no longer possible to guess.

[Kish]

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people know there is a better than chance possibility that what fans like to read is going to have some overlap with what Rich likes to write, and they choose to ignore the feelings of others anyways.

Ox, if you really want to stop getting the hostile reactions you sometimes get, you really need to drop "paint anyone who disagrees with you as a heartless monster" from your rhetorical toolset, along with "stick words in other people's mouths."

"Some overlap" here is vague enough to convey very little. "What fans like to read," in aggregate, has a technical term. It's "lowest common denominator" and writing to it may sometimes be a financial success but is never an artistic success. It is the opposite of an insult to Rich to say that he is not doing it. But since we're talking about people's feelings which must not be ignored...

There is no way to have a reveal and not have that reveal be "he's not what the vast majority of you have been saying, in various and sundry ways, that you believe he is." He's only going to be one creature. He won't be a slaad, a protean, a hunting horror, a tarrasque, an abomination child of the Dark One, an Eastern god, a fragment of the Snarl, and a ha-naga, all at once.

I think the majority of the people who participate in this thread are attempting analysis: this is what he's likely to be because of X, Y, and Z. Sometimes I agree with their premises and conclusions and sometimes I don't. But unquestionably, several people over the years have been taking a more feeling-based approach.

If the creature turned out to be--just to pick an example completely at random--a Hunting Horror, one (1) of them would be pleased to have the result he was invested in. All the others would experience...whatever level of disappointment they associate with "he's not what I wanted him to be."

What level of disappointment do you associate with "he's not what I wanted him to be"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I do like this, of course, but honestly, the fact that we don't even know if a version of the Nightmare Beast that makes for a good fit even exists is an even bigger con for me. I suppose you could try to finale or jury-rig a conversion to 3.5. And at that point, "I converted a 2ed monster that happens to convert in a way that fits all the big scenes" seems like it's no longer possible to guess.

It is even worse than that, because (assuming that there wasn't a 3.0 version at #100), what was already canon is that non-converted creatures of 2nd ed are both (a) trapped in Dorukan's dungeon and (b) stated as they used to, making them much weaker. Take, for example, that "-5 AC" quoted by LadyEowyn. In 3.5 that means that you'd still hit with a 2 even if you somehow had -6 to hit. In 3.5 negative AC is a bad thing, not "an incredible protection". If "nothing before #100 contradicts what he is", then those two facts alone already are a massive problem for ANB (and all other 2nd ed unconverted creatures).

And what version of ANB we've looked at over the years, other than that one we've just voted out, they were generally too big, too weak and I'm fairly certain didn't have teleport, but I'd have to check. And of course, none existed when Rich made his pick, as far as we've been able to determine.

GW

[Tzardok]

It is even worse than that, because (assuming that there wasn't a 3.0 version at #100),

GW

There was, but the thread already threw it out. It's the one from the MM 2, listed in Section 3c: Proposed Ideas under Nightmare Beast. Part of why the version we call the ANB was created is because that one wasn't very faithful to the 2e version.

[Crusher]

"It's from one of Fred Saberhagen's lesser-known novels!"

Hey, Berserkers are in the Monster Manual! Ok, maybe they're not the exact same kind of Berserkers, but still. I really liked the story where they tricked one into having a sense of humor and it hit something with a gigantic pie.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people know there is a better than chance possibility that what fans like to read is going to have some overlap with what Rich likes to write, and they choose to ignore the feelings of others anyways.

You're getting the causality backwards. We aren't a random audience having Rich's work thrust upon us. We're people who came upon his work and enjoyed it enough to stick around. The odds are far better than chance of his preferred writing entertaining us, we've self-selected to being here because we like the work he does. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here.

Your questions seem aimed at getting into the mind of an author by probing the preferences of those who enjoy the author's work. I'm doubtful it'll reveal anything useful, but it certainly counts as thinking outside of the box. Your hurdles are probably a combination of breadth and people not responding. If you were able to do it wholesale, you might not get the answer you're looking for but I'm certain you'd find something interesting. The data Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc have on consumers could probably utterly rewrite everything we know about psychology if it were collated properly and made public.

[LadyEowyn]

See, that doesn't track with MitD being lazy and sleeping a lot.

The nightmare beast spends basically all its time either eating or sleeping. If the amount of food MITD is getting isn’t enough for him, that could lead both to him being more sleepy and smaller than usual.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There was, but the thread already threw it out. It's the one from the MM 2, listed in Section 3c: Proposed Ideas under Nightmare Beast. Part of why the version we call the ANB was created is because that one wasn't very faithful to the 2e version.

Right, and that's the one with no teleport at all, just dimension door.

GW

[Kastor]

Something about the Nightmare Beast is that I don't think the reveal would really change anything about our understanding of MITD. The Protean theory is still my favourite because it's well grounded in a dramatic logic. The Nightmare Beast feels like it'd just be a 'Oh, so that's what he looks like' reveal.

Im not sure I can disagree more- one of the reasons I feel it isnt the Protean is that the Protean feels like it could fit any option presented. It feels like the catch-all, not one that fits the evidence especially well. If we're all trying to figure out which block goes in which hole, the Protean feels like pulling out a tub of play-dough, and that feels narratively unsatisfying to me.

Personally, id much prefer to learn what MitD's restrictions have been this whole time, rather than learning that he's naturally pluripotent. His pluripotency is his character growth, not monster type.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Im not sure I can disagree more- one of the reasons I feel it isnt the Protean is that the Protean feels like it could fit any option presented. It feels like the catch-all, not one that fits the evidence especially well. If we're all trying to figure out which block goes in which hole, the Protean feels like pulling out a tub of play-dough, and that feels narratively unsatisfying to me.

No, it really really doesn't. The protean is not Sabine. It cannot shape change into whatever it wants. It can't copy anything but Ex powers. Stop claiming that it does when attempting to justify why you think it is a bad solution to the puzzle.

GW

[Keltest]

No, it really really doesn't. The protean is not Sabine. It cannot shape change into whatever it wants.

I don't know why you keep saying this, it literally can. What it struggles to do is trick people into thinking it is the thing it is assuming the shape of.

Literally the first line in the SRD link:

A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action.

[Tubercular Ox]

Ox, if you really want to stop getting the hostile reactions you sometimes get, you really need to drop "paint anyone who disagrees with you as a heartless monster" from your rhetorical toolset, along with "stick words in other people's mouths."

Thank you for the advice. I trust you will continue to be a model for how to behave here.

"Some overlap" here is vague enough to convey very little. "What fans like to read," in aggregate, has a technical term. It's "lowest common denominator"

Then I am using the wrong word because I do not mean the lowest common denominator.

Ruck was closer to understanding me:

Rich puts significant effort into writing the story he wants to tell the best he can. He does not write to meet audience expectations; the audience has come because they want to read what he wants to write.

Yes, exactly. This is as much motivation as I've ever needed to ask people who like the story what they expect from the ending.

If the creature turned out to be--just to pick an example completely at random--a Hunting Horror, one (1) of them would be pleased to have the result he was invested in. All the others would experience...whatever level of disappointment they associate with "he's not what I wanted him to be."

When I requested that people talk to me without talking about a candidate, very few people wanted to talk to me, but the ones that did have all been broad in their expectations, but also passionate.

At the same time, people have come out in favor of the idea that the story is more important than the guessing game, sometimes passionately.

So I am expecting the audience to be passionate about the things they’re expecting but forgiving in the things they say are not important. Is that naive?

You're getting the causality backwards. We aren't a random audience having Rich's work thrust upon us. We're people who came upon his work and enjoyed it enough to stick around. The odds are far better than chance of his preferred writing entertaining us, we've self-selected to being here because we like the work he does. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here.

Yes, exactly.

Your questions seem aimed at getting into the mind of an author by probing the preferences of those who enjoy the author's work.

If I were any good at explaining myself to this thread, I wouldn’t have to say, “Yes, exactly,” quite so much. I don’t know how to ask this politely, but could you think about everything I could legitimately learn by asking people how they feel about the reveal, then assume that what I’m after is on that list somewhere?

---

I’m one of the people who thinks that the reveal is going to be highly connected to the rest of the plot. In the past, I tried to create a complete list of every plot point the Monster in the Dark could possibly intervene in. Without telling anyone who thinks the Monster in the Dark is not going to be connected to the plot that they're wrong, can anyone help me complete it?

The Reveal could be used as a tool to advance the plot of:

• Destroying Xykon.
• Getting Redcloak/TDO to donate their quiddity
• Confronting the Snarl, the gates, the rifts, or the planet behind the rifts (whether or not it has any relationship with them prior to this point)
• Explaining or navigating the final dungeon (e.g. did it escape from there? Will it help the party escape after the defeat of a load bearing boss?)
• Explaining the Scribbles. (e.g. Does Serini recognize it? Can it explain what went wrong with them?)
• Stopping the IFCC. (Or helping, if the plot gets twisty)
• Stopping/helping Sabine get revenge for the death of Nale.
• Stopping Tarquin and friends
• Helping Amun-Zora and friends (Ian, Geoff, Enor, Gannji)
• Triggering the Quinton’s release from service
• Urdook?
• Calder?
• Redeeming V and/or Belkar.
• Helping the Demon Roaches do something important to the plot.

If there is anything more important than the Demon Roaches that I left off, it’s because I forgot, not because I’m trying to snub any ideas. And no candidates, please, I’m still only interested in the story Rich is telling to people who don’t care about candidates.

[Keltest]

Ox, if you just want to talk about the plot without actually trying to figure out what the MITD is (you know, the purpose of this thread), is there some reason you can't just do so directly in the pinned thread specifically for talking about the comic? I suspect you would find more people interested in speculating about the story with you there.

And if that isn't what you want, then how does this list help us figure out what the MITD is? I promise I'm not saying this just to try and get you to go away or anything, I just genuinely cannot tell what you want out of this.

[LadyEowyn]

I think what Tibercular Ox means is: how could the plot be affected by MITD being Creature X rather than Creature Y, and how can that inform our theories on what kind of creature he is?

I would say that, if MITD’s creature type is something that will be significant to the story, I can see at least two possibilities for that: that its creature type can be significant to the plot, as Ox suggests, or that it can be significant to the themes. (Or both!)

I think that MITD being a creature that is typically Evil - while clearly not being inclined in that direction personally, and having firmly chosen against it thanks to O-Chul’s influence - would fit in with the themes that Rich has bern building up throughout. (That’s another reason I like nightmare beast as a choice.) In terms of plot, I’m less sure that its specific abilities will matter, but the nightmare beast appears to have Energy Drain (?), and after Xykon having deployed that to such effect on multiple ccasions, having it turned against him would be amusing.

[Tzardok]

Energy Drain buffs undead. It does not harm them.

[Ruck]

I’m one of the people who thinks that the reveal is going to be highly connected to the rest of the plot.

I think what Tibercular Ox means is: how could the plot be affected by MITD being Creature X rather than Creature Y, and how can that inform our theories on what kind of creature he is?

I think you're right, but I also don't know how we could possibly make any real informed speculation through that.

In terms of the reveal itself, my impression is that the importance of it is going to be because MitD openly defies Xykon and switches sides to help the heroes. And we know MitD is extremely powerful, so this switch could be a game-changer, and presumably some of these powers will be put to use to help the heroes.

But beyond that... I don't know how I, or anyone, could reasonably have specific enough ideas of what form that help would take, or even what exactly the final battle will look like, such that we could use those ideas as a basis for deducing the Monster's species.