MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Crusher]

So why are we all still here?

You mean *other than* arguing with each other?

[brian 333]

You mean *other than* arguing with each other?

Not sure why reposts of old ideas illicit such angst when a simple, "Idea already proposed, thank you for participating," or, "Opinion noted," would work just as well.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Added Worm that walks to section 2d. Discovered in doing so that Section 2 is right at the limit for characters. Had to edit down a bunch of text to fit the new entry in.

GW

[Kish]

what with white slaads being bigger than blacks

Not to disagree with anything else you said but this part is wrong. White slaadi are Large, black slaadi are Huge.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not to disagree with anything else you said but this part is wrong. White slaadi are Large, black slaadi are Huge.

Huh. Seems I was looking at 4e not 3e. OK, striking that one out.

GW

[Errorname]

The eyes thing bothers me less because I think for the Protean to work in a visual medium you want to have one consistent design element in a boiling sea of changing parts, and the best option for that is the eyes. If the monster was unveiled as a Protean and the eyes started moving all about, that'd bother me, but I can't see that happening.

I dislike the Slaad idea because it's boring. It's like revealing the Monster to be a Beholder or a Dragon, it's an iconic and recognizable D&D monster and the Monster feels like it should be something more esoteric and obscure than that.

And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out the gold amulet he wears.
(Fits a Hunting Horror: It has Swallow Whole.)
(Fits a Hunting Horror again: It has a printed Vomit attack to spit things out with)

Eat and Spit are basic biological functions that can frankly be assumed unless the monster description specifically excludes them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Huh. Seems I was looking at 4e not 3e. OK, striking that one out.

GW

OK, now that I'm in no danger of burning lunch by attempting to post and cook at the same time, clarification. I remembered that white and black slaads were huge & large, but couldn't remember which was which. First hit on google took me here, a large black slaad... in 4E. But yeah, if I had clicked on the 3e, I would've seen that the size change. Sorry about that.

So I'll change my argument to point out that white slaads are large, and that's too big for the umbrella, and white slaads don't have child versions like we tend to assume for everything else. Not as pithy, but still, good to illustrate that slaads check boxes, but are not exactly easy to accept.

GW

[Kish]

Section 2a explicitly says:

Since his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this size, and under this umbrella. This makes him human-sized or large.

that Large qualifies--not "a creature of a Large species which will be Large one day," but currently Large. Does it need to be revised?

(I would not agree that the creature in the darkness is necessarily larger than one of these--and "these" could be the ogretrolls or the horse Vaarsuvius is on, since ogres, trolls, and horses are all Large.)

[lio45]

I dislike the Slaad idea because it's boring. It's like revealing the Monster to be a Beholder or a Dragon, it's an iconic and recognizable D&D monster and the Monster feels like it should be something more esoteric and obscure than that.

Not just you, that’s actually listed in the OP as an official Slaad con (written not as “Errorname finds it boring” but rather something along the lines of “not exotic enough to satisfy the circus scene”)

Eat and Spit are basic biological functions that can frankly be assumed unless the monster description specifically excludes them.

True, but now that you’ve mentioned it, an ever-boiling mess of flesh would not always have a mouth, right…? It’s kind of a Protean drawback (compared to normal monsters, who can always be assumed to be able to eat and spit, at any time)

[Gurgeh]

So I'll change my argument to point out that white slaads are large, and that's too big for the umbrella, and white slaads don't have child versions like we tend to assume for everything else.

I'm with Kish here - Large seems fine given how frequently Large creatures are depicted as not much bigger than Medium ones.

True, but now that you’ve mentioned it, an ever-boiling mess of flesh would not always have a mouth, right…? It’s kind of a Protean drawback (compared to normal monsters, who can always be assumed to be able to eat and spit, at any time)

I'm not a fan of the Protean but I don't think this is an obstacle at all. If he's compelled to do something then he'll do the necessary shapeshifting to make that thing possible.

[Errorname]

True, but now that you’ve mentioned it, an ever-boiling mess of flesh would not always have a mouth, right…? It’s kind of a Protean drawback (compared to normal monsters, who can always be assumed to be able to eat and spit, at any time)

Sure, but 'intake' and 'expell' are not actions limited to creatures with dedicated jaws. A Gelatinous Cube could be said to devour someone and spit out their valuables, and that's something with no ability to form any sort of organs at all

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 2a explicitly says:

that Large qualifies--not "a creature of a Large species which will be Large one day," but currently Large. Does it need to be revised?

No, I'm talking strictly personal views on size here. Consensus has been quite clear that anything up to Huge is found acceptable, and even beyond with scaling strength. That I don't find that plausible is neither here nor there to the FBS. While I personally think MitD is quite clearly Medium sized right now (if bipedal, which slaads are) and can accept that his species might be Large if he's kid-sized, I do not for a second suggest that is in any way some kind of majority opinion.

ETA: going to go ahead and clarify I can picture MitD to currently be Large if his species is quadrupedal (or other "longer than tall", which is the case for horses & proteans). And again, talking strictly personal views here.

GW

[Ruck]

Not at all. The "standard" discussed here is "proposed creature isn't incompatible with what's been shown in the comic", and the argument made by some people is that the Protean doesn't meet that standard -- while other proposed creatures could.

They've shown that how they think a Protean should act is incompatible with what is shown in the comic, and that's not the same thing.

Filling the thread with "Rich must show MitD changing constantly or I won't accept it could be the protean" like it's some major revelation you just came up with instead of a tired old argument we have heard a bazillion times is just not going to be effective. Either you buy it or you don't. And pretty much everyone here has already made that decision, and did so months or even years ago, and bringing it up again and again is just not going to change anything, unless you bring something new to the table.

Yeah, this too. I guess I can't really emphasize anymore that "the Protean's eyes should move around!" is an argument about how it should act rather than can act. Let alone that if the whole point of MitD's is story is that he's not typical for his species and he needs to learn to follow his own conscience rather than what's expected of him, then the argument "he doesn't act like I expect!" is even weaker. But I'll try anyway.

I merely think that you (where you means 'ardent proponents of the Protean' rather than 'this guy called Ruck who's probably a mighty fine fellow for someone looking like a psycho redneck (I blame your avatar)') are wrong.

Yeah, I got that part. (There's a good story behind the avatar, but also, I could reasonably be said to look like that right now. I need to get my beard trimmed before I travel next week.)

The thing about the Glabrezu wasn't about that either. It wasn't even very popular to begin with. That one simply insulted my common sense through being very obviously not a strong candidate.

That was just the first example I thought of. The point is that you're talking about why an extremely defining feature of a character in a guessing game is not revealed.

I dunno... it's like if I was telling a story where I had a mystery James Bond actor in it who I didn't want to reveal until the end, and you're saying it can't be Sean Connery because I'm not constantly talking about how Scottish he is.

I have addressed this before. That requires eyes. That doesn't require the eyes to always be the same eyes.

It doesn't disqualify the Protean if the eyes are the same eyes, though.

And you find that more BELIEVABLE… …than the idea that he really only has two eyes, and those two are his eyes?

I find that there are many reasonable explanations, and I have no idea which one is right, but only one of them needs to be-- or even one Rich came up with that nobody else has thought of. The fact that there are so many explanations I find plausible is sufficient for my standards, given how much better I think the Protean fits everything else about MitD than any other species.

Meaning no offense, I feel like when you're saying "he has to be something" it means something more like "he has to be a Protean (no matter how many weird hoops we have to jump through for that)".

I mean, in my personal opinion based on the knowledge I have, yes, it is the Protean. But that's not the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is, if you don't think it can be any of the creatures, and you aren't looking for new creatures, then you're fundamentally arguing the MitD can't be anything, and that's the one thing we know is not true.

Having said that, after catching up on the thread I see you are going with the Slaad. To the Slaad, I think the fact that Rich has already portrayed one is a big strike against it, since showing us a creature we've already seen wouldn't be much of a reveal. Plus the cons Grey Wolf listed in his post, plus the ones in the FBS post at the top of the thread. I think these are significantly bigger cons than the Protean has.

I also can't think of a story-based reason for Rich to choose a slaad, and as far as I know no one has suggested one. Since I think Rich's choice was to serve the story first, the fact that I do think there's a thematic significance in the Protean makes it even stronger in my mind.

And you're not helping by saying things like "no matter how many weird hoops we have to jump through for that." You mean the "weird hoop" of "accessing another creature's powers, which it can do"? Or "we haven't seen its eyes move all over the place, no matter how many plausible explanations there are for that, or that it's just an assumption based on how you think Proteans have to act"? Doesn't seem "many" or "weird" to me. Would you like it if I addressed your argument against the Protean as "weird assumptions you can't let go"?

You know what? I'll bite. What's the one defining quality of a Slaad that undermines portraying it as two yellow eyes in darkness? Is it that Slaadi are exemplars loyal to no master? In that case, I truly wish we had an exemplar from a similar plane inexplicably loyal to an odd employer, only to start questioning that loyalty due to a meaningful connection with a Human!

At this point, you're adding information I didn't include in the bolded. And you're picking traits that are not visually defining in a comic strip. But more importantly:

I agree with the point you've made here that MitD is atypical for his species. Apparently you think that atypicalness can't apply to the Protean.

[halfeye]

I dunno... it's like if I was telling a story where I had a mystery James Bond actor in it who I didn't want to reveal until the end, and you're saying it can't be Sean Connery because I'm not constantly talking about how Scottish he is.

For me, the eyes thing would be the equivalent of you actually talking about how irish he was. It seems to me talking about how irish the actor was if he was actually Sean Connery would be crossing a line.

[Ruck]

For me, the eyes thing would be the equivalent of you actually talking about how irish he was. It seems to me talking about how irish the actor was if he was actually Sean Connery would be crossing a line.

And I think this only works if Sean Connery was secretly part-Irish and people just didn't know about it or think about it. (I guess the metaphor falls apart here, because I'm not sure how "capable of being Irish if he puts his mind to it," or "depicted as Irish for reasons of the medium," or "kept to look Irish by his handlers," would work.)

Again, I see the insistence his eyes have to be changing and moving around as "what we expect him to do," not "what he can do." And I think there's a big difference:

• particularly for a creature already shown to be unusual for his species,
• particularly if you think (as I do, and as I think is strongly suggested by his interactions with O-Chul) that MITD's story is about following his own conscience rather than what others expect of him,
• and particularly if you think Rich's wording of "nothing ... contradicts the truth of what he is" is significant.

[Metastachydium]

Because I disagree with you in what constitutes both "simpler" and "contrived". I find the slaad evolution/reproduction cycle too contrived for MitD. I accept this is my personal opinion. But it is also a con, and as such is listed. I do not find the protean steady eye issue as contrived for MitD, but I accept this is not a universal fact, and that it is a valid con, and as such is listed. You are reversed in both of those opinions. Everyone else in this thread will have their own ranking for those two things, as well as for a bunch of others.

What I meant there was "it has yellow eyes is simpler than it doesn't really have yellow eyes, or eyes or whatever and it's just a cosmetic effect for REASONS" in particular, and that's applicable to a whole lot of things (such as "it just has the same Teleport ability that the other one would have had to borrow from something even more obscure"). Otherwise fair, of course.

Just as, yes, I stand by the fact that I divide demons/devils/whatever the neutral ones are called into two groups, "those that look like traditional demons" and "those that don't", and you do not. And once that has been established, it is clearly an impasse and I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you, because I gave it my best shot and it clearly didn't work, so I moved on.

And I'll maintain that's like an extraterrestrial complaining that a weasel shouldn't be recognizable to a biologist as a caniform carnivore (despite being one) because it doesn't look like a hyena (despite that one being a feliform). But okay, moving on.

And you think the plausibility of those is reversed. Which is fine, but the part where you think your judgement of plausibility vs simplicity is somehow a universal yardstick is not.

Again, the argument to simplicity is more about one option just having certain abilities, where the other has to have a varying amount of control over unrelated abilities to acquire and lose the same abilities as above, purely on the basis of story convenience.

And putting back my curator hat, the FBS does not exist to house creatures you personally think are not "stupid". It exists to showcase a range of options of what we have found so far. The way to curate it should be by bringing in even more candidates that fit even better, which would cause me to want to raise the bar to keep the numbers in the 6-12 range. Which is why I do now regret opening the door to just voting the ones we have out, but what's done is done.

[Ugly sarcastic grin (, the FLOWER equivalent of).] Then why don't we put the Dao in there?

You mean *other than* arguing with each other?

Yes. If we are not here to endlessly argue, then why are we here enedlessly arguing?!

The eyes thing bothers me less because I think for the Protean to work in a visual medium you want to have one consistent design element in a boiling sea of changing parts, and the best option for that is the eyes.

Again, he doesn't need that (due to having the darkness and the umbrella), but yeah, this might be a mighty overdiscussed matter indeed.

I dislike the Slaad idea because it's boring. It's like revealing the Monster to be a Beholder or a Dragon, it's an iconic and recognizable D&D monster and the Monster feels like it should be something more esoteric and obscure than that.

Meh. A Beholder or a Red Dragon is boring. An Overseer (a Beholderkin that looks like a massive, many-eyed Roper made of molten tar) or a Spelleater (a Dragon that is basically a big cylindrical maw on four legs that eats spells) isn't. A crazy epic version is esoteric enough for me.

So I'll change my argument to point out that white slaads are large, and that's too big for the umbrella,

Bye-bye, all the candidates in the FBS section, including the Protean!

and white slaads don't have child versions like we tend to assume for everything else.

Technically, they do. Those are just called, say Green Slaadi.

ETA: going to go ahead and clarify I can picture MitD to currently be Large if his species is quadrupedal (or other "longer than tall", which is the case for horses & proteans).

A Protean's Space and Reach are the same. It is very strictly a Large (Tall) rather than a Large (Long) class entity, so that's an argument against it.

Yeah, I got that part. (There's a good story behind the avatar, but also, I could reasonably be said to look like that right now. I need to get my beard trimmed before I travel next week.)

Heh.

That was just the first example I thought of. The point is that you're talking about why an extremely defining feature of a character in a guessing game is not revealed.

I dunno... it's like if I was telling a story where I had a mystery James Bond actor in it who I didn't want to reveal until the end, and you're saying it can't be Sean Connery because I'm not constantly talking about how Scottish he is.

Except, Sean Connery is a fitting option there because he is a James Bond actor, not because he is Scottish. If he would need to be Scottish to qualify, because being Scottish would be one of the ways to meet the criteria (as with the Protean which ios only really a good option because of the shapeshifting), on the other hand… (Yeah, I don't think this actor analogy is really working.)

It doesn't disqualify the Protean if the eyes are the same eyes, though.



I find that there are many reasonable explanations, and I have no idea which one is right, but only one of them needs to be-- or even one Rich came up with that nobody else has thought of. The fact that there are so many explanations I find plausible is sufficient for my standards, given how much better I think the Protean fits everything else about MitD than any other species.

Like I said, it's not even the eyes. It's the "full control over the powers even if that takes deliberate actions when convenient, "no such thing when that's not convenient" (Circus scene), and "has no idea what's even ever going on because convenient". I find that a jumbled mess raising more questions than it solves.

Having said that, after catching up on the thread I see you are going with the Slaad. To the Slaad, I think the fact that Rich has already portrayed one is a big strike against it, since showing us a creature we've already seen wouldn't be much of a reveal.

"We have seen Mimics, so showing us another compulsive shapeshifter wouldn't be much of a reveal."

Plus the cons Grey Wolf listed in his post, plus the ones in the FBS post at the top of the thread. I think these are significantly bigger cons than the Protean has.

Let's go through those!

Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).

I already addressed this one through the Limbo ONS argument. It's right there in the comic.

MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)

I already addressed this through the Elves in Diapers argument. Also from something explicitly brought up in the comic itself.

It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.

MEH. We have a Beholder as an important named character and we have already seen a Slaad portrayed (two, if Elan's shoulder Slaad counts).

Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.

Same goes for the Protean.

It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.

It is a vaguely luminiscent, bipedal toadlike creature with very untoadlike teeth, long arms and claws &c. I have seen toads before. If something of this size that looks a lot more like a normal toad stared at me from a stage, I would go all "I've never seen anything like that before", and I'm kinda surprised you wouldn't.

And if you mean recognizable as a Slaad, rather than a toad… There are a lot of batrachian Outsiders that aren't Slaadi and are easier to recognize than anything epic-level, including the Neraph and the Hezrou.

I also can't think of a story-based reason for Rich to choose a slaad, and as far as I know no one has suggested one. Since I think Rich's choice was to serve the story first, the fact that I do think there's a thematic significance in the Protean makes it even stronger in my mind.

Funnily enough, it can even pull the "I can change!" line I praised you for coming up with earlier, through going Black.

And you're not helping by saying things like "no matter how many weird hoops we have to jump through for that." You mean the "weird hoop" of "accessing another creature's powers, which it can do"? Or "we haven't seen its eyes move all over the place, no matter how many plausible explanations there are for that, or that it's just an assumption based on how you think Proteans have to act"? Doesn't seem "many" or "weird" to me.

No, I'm mainly talking about "it can or cannot do its thing as advertised, depending on how convenient it is for the argument you're making". I explained and illustrated that with examples repeatedly.

At this point, you're adding information I didn't include in the bolded. And you're picking traits that are not visually defining in a comic strip.

But that's the issue. I was deliberately trying to make my work harder than it had to be. Visually, A White Slaad in magical darkness is really just two yellow eyes in magical darkness. There's literally nothing one needs to change about it to fit what we see.

EDIT:

For me, the eyes thing would be the equivalent of you actually talking about how irish he was. It seems to me talking about how irish the actor was if he was actually Sean Connery would be crossing a line.

And I think this only works if Sean Connery was secretly part-Irish and people just didn't know about it or think about it. (I guess the metaphor falls apart here, because I'm not sure how "capable of being Irish if he puts his mind to it," or "depicted as Irish for reasons of the medium," or "kept to look Irish by his handlers," would work.)

Okay, I see it now. Think about it this way: makeup/costume is a powerful tool, especially these days. It is possible to disguise an elderly Sean Connery as a young woman. So, if you see a young woman on screen, that's no reason not to suspect that she is Sean Connery and it is entirely fair to make a guessing game about this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I already addressed this one through the Limbo ONS argument. It's right there in the comic.
I already addressed this through the Elves in Diapers argument. Also from something explicitly brought up in the comic itself.

You "addressed" it in the same way proteans address the eye issue, and that you fail to accept that there is no reason for anyone else to find that explanation plausible while you keep insisting you have fully addressed yours is why this is good bye from me. Nothing good, bad or even interesting will come out of me continue to try to communicate the difference between FBS standards and my personal opinions, and if I can't communicate that difference, everything else is just definitely not going to be even remotely possible to have a conversation about.

GW

[Metastachydium]

You "addressed" it in the same way proteans address the eye issue,

Until such time as someone shows me a Protean with fixed eyes in the comic itself (the way I could show you a Slaad with parents in the comic) no, not even remotely the same way.

Nothing good, bad or even interesting will come out of me continue to try to communicate the difference between FBS standards and my personal opinions,

This is a complete non sequitur. I'm not talking about FBS criteria here, and given that having birth parents in the sense a real world animal has those is not an FBS criterion, you are not talking about FBS criteria either. Same goes for "has to be a child in the way a real world animal's young is a child".

and if you can't even grasp that difference, everything else is just definitely not going to be even remotely possible to have a conversation about.

Lastly, I'll humbly request that you take that back. It sounds way too much like a "you're too dumb to talk to" which would simply be an insult I'm not going to take from you or anyone.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nothing good, bad or even interesting will come out of me continue to try to communicate the difference between FBS standards and my personal opinions,

This is a complete non sequitur. I'm not talking about FBS criteria here

So I'll change my argument to point out that white slaads are large, and that's too big for the umbrella,

Bye-bye, all the candidates in the FBS section, including the Protean!

Top: me, talking about my personal opinion.
Bottom: you, talking about the FBS.

QED

[Metastachydium]

Top: me, talking about my personal opinion.
Bottom: you, talking about the FBS.

QED

1. I see the point, but that was half a joke, half a "this basically excludes all our best candidates from consideration, including the one you say fits better on this very basis".^◘
2. Maybe if you actually quoted that bit instead of only the two lines not having anything to do with FBS criteria, I would have been less confused about why you're even talking about the FBS criteria.

^◘Last I checked "FBS creatures =/= FBS criteria/standards" still held true.

[Tubercular Ox]

Eat and Spit are basic biological functions that can frankly be assumed unless the monster description specifically excludes them.

It sounds like you think Rich wrote this scene to exclude monsters like the Potted Plant.

That’s not a practical way to write the Monster in the Dark. It implies that Rich is keeping a list of not excluded monsters, to know when he’s done writing clues. This is fruitless, because he can never be sure that there isn't a monster not on his list that he’s failing to exclude. And Rich has told us he never worries about that.

A far more efficient way to write clues, consistent with Rich’s comment that it is not a guessing game and part of the story, is to look at the stat block of the Monster in the Dark, let it inspire stories, and then work those stories into the larger plot.

So Rich has the Hunting Horror, sees Swallow Whole and Vomit, and imagines a story where it swallows Redcloak whole and spits out the amulet.

But if Rich has the Protean, he has to look straight at Destabilize Form, decide the guessing game is more important than the story, and write a clue to exclude Potted Plants that people will argue over after the reveal.

[Keltest]

It sounds like you think Rich wrote this scene to exclude monsters like the Potted Plant.

That’s not a practical way to write the Monster in the Dark. It implies that Rich is keeping a list of not excluded monsters, to know when he’s done writing clues. This is fruitless, because he can never be sure that there isn't a monster not on his list that he’s failing to exclude. And Rich has told us he never worries about that.

A far more efficient way to write clues, consistent with Rich’s comment that it is not a guessing game and part of the story, is to look at the stat block of the Monster in the Dark, let it inspire stories, and then work those stories into the larger plot.

So Rich has the Hunting Horror, sees Swallow Whole and Vomit, and imagines a story where it swallows Redcloak whole and spits out the amulet.

But if Rich has the Protean, he has to look straight at Destabilize Form, decide the guessing game is more important than the story, and write a clue to exclude Potted Plants that people will argue over after the reveal.

Not every scene is deliberately written as a clue, or indeed is a clue at all.


On an unrelated note, we have seen swirly mind control eyes appear on somebody who ultimately resisted the effect. Is there value in re-assessing the MITD's vulnerability to mind control effects? It wouldn't exactly be out of character for him to agree to whatever Xykon said even without the spell, at least at that stage of his character development.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On an unrelated note, we have seen swirly mind control eyes appear on somebody who ultimately resisted the effect. Is there value in re-assessing the MITD's vulnerability to mind control effects? It wouldn't exactly be out of character for him to agree to whatever Xykon said even without the spell, at least at that stage of his character development.

The only solid conclusion the thread draws from that panel in SoD is that MitD's species can be mind controlled - i.e. we exclude certain groups from consideration for the FBS because they are immune to mind control absolutely. Whether MitD did or did not throw off the MC doesn't change that calculus. Attempts have been made (via "this is what Xykon could roll to mind control, this is how much this or that species could defend for") but I don't much buy those analysis, because they rely on too many assumptions that I doubt Rich cares about. My bottom line, as usual, is "would Rich have picked a mind control immune species, then had Xykon mind control it?" to which I generally answer "no", given that Xykon would have many other ways (narratively) to force MitD into submission. Like, if MC was off the table, Rich could have Xykon just take MitD's teddy bear hostage.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

The only solid conclusion the thread draws from that panel in SoD is that MitD's species can be mind controlled - i.e. we exclude certain groups from consideration for the FBS because they are immune to mind control absolutely. Whether MitD did or did not throw off the MC doesn't change that calculous. Attempts have been made (via "this is what Xykon could roll to mind control, this is how much this or that species could defend for") but I don't much buy those analysis, because they rely on too many assumptions that I doubt Rich cares about. My bottom line, as usual, is "would Rich have picked a mind control immune species, then had Xykon mind control it?" to which I generally answer "no", given that Xykon would have many other ways (narratively) to force MitD into submission. Like, if MC was off the table, Rich could have Xykon just take MitD's teddy bear hostage.

Grey Wolf

I don't know that I would trust Xykon as an authority on the immunities of a creature he just met two minutes ago. Or anything that he hasn't actively just blasted to find out, TBH. As far as narrative goals, its the same logic that convinces people on the protean, picking a creature that lacks literally the single defining trait the MITD had at the time and finagling it, and I didn't remember anyone bringing it up at the time the page came out, so I figured it was worth a rethink to make sure we weren't tripping ourselves up on our own assumptions.

Do you know off hand if we even have any creatures that would make it into the FBS list if the mind control immunity weren't a problem? Deities, maybe, but those seem like a bad choice for lots of other reasons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know that I would trust Xykon as an authority on the immunities of a creature he just met two minutes ago.

We are not trusting Xykon. Like, he tried MC, it worked. That's what gives us the clue that the species can be mind controlled. It doesn't rely on Xykon knowing anything about it. If it had not worked, it'd be a different clue, and Rich could have used a second panel to show a different way of Xykon wrestling MitD away from RC's control. Or more likely, because this is a single panel moment, Rich would have Xykon do that first, because it's not so central a narrative moment he'd have wanted to use two panels. But the bottom line is that Xykon tried MC, and it worked, and that's the clue we have. And to misquote... something about battles, I think, we work with the clues we have, not the clues we want.

Do you know off hand if we even have any creatures that would make it into the FBS list if the mind control immunity weren't a problem? Deities, maybe, but those seem like a bad choice for lots of other reasons.

No, but if it was a key issue, it probably would be listed in the summary in 3e; you can probably have a decent find at finding one or two with spoilers->Show All ctrl-F immune.

GW

[Crusher]

And to misquote... something about battles, I think

I always thought it was about cards: "Play the hand you're dealt, not the hand you wish you had" but I could be wrong as well.

Edit - Ah, I was close. "You play the cards you're dealt." (no second sentence) was popularized by Charles Schultz through the comic strip Snoopy, of all things, but it certainly pre-dates him. The term referring specifically to card playing dates at least back to the late-1700s (and almost certainly earlier, that's just the latest print usage easily found) and as a non-gaming metaphor to at least the mid-1800s (and, again, probably earlier but that's the oldest confirmed print reference).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I always thought it was about cards: "Play the hand you're dealt, not the hand you wish you had" but I could be wrong as well.

Edit - Ah, I was close. "You play the cards you're dealt." (no second sentence) was popularized by Charles Schultz through the comic strip Snoopy, of all things, but it certainly pre-dates him. The term referring specifically to card playing dates at least back to the late-1700s (and almost certainly earlier, that's just the latest print usage easily found) and as a non-gaming metaphor to at least the mid-1800s (and, again, probably earlier but that's the oldest confirmed print reference).

Had never heard that variation, but it is clearly the source for the one I had, which I've tracked to Donald Runsfield('s speechwriters). Makes sense that it's a gambling-related source, but if so, I'd imagine there might be even more ancient version going back all the way. Latin probably has a "you take the lots the sacred chickens give you, not throw them overboard" version.

GW

[Appchoy]

Hi, been reading the comic since sometime around the war for Azure city was newly updating. So probably at least 15 years. I've been playing D&D since even before that.

So I will toss in my guess as to what the MitD is: a titan. Specifically an earlier edition titan.

I know it's been brought up before and dismissed, but I am more convinced about it the longer I think about it.

Heres my reasoning why it lines up for me:
Titans are strong, big stats
Titans are capable of divine magic as spell like abilities
Reading the wiki for the first edition titan, the text reads as though their spell like abilities are suggestions, there are many different titans with different abilities, including powerful spells. I would guess a titan invoking a divine spell from strong feelings would be perfectly capable of the "escape"
Titans come from Aborea, a wild planar landscape named after dense forest/JUNGLE- like what MitD says hes from
Titans in the monster manual text "mysteriously disapeared" from the mortal plane. In Rich's world this could coincide with the destruction of the Eastern (ie. Greek) pantheon
Btw, titans are greek, the pantheon that was destroyed was greek
OOTS story in general heavily features gods, divine intervention and mythology, and an undercurrent struggle between chaos and order.
Rich has a love for giants. They are in his comic, materials he has written for WotC, and his online namesake is Giant. Titans are the greatest of the giants.
There is some text in the manuals that mentions an even more mysterious legend of "greater" titans who are even closer to godliness, capable of more fantastic feats. Idk, could refer to MitD dad, who was bigger. Like way huge.
This next one might be a stretch, but there could be a narrative reason for making MitD a titan of the destroyed pantheon. If he contains some amount of the previous pantheons aura/ color, he could be used in lieu of the Dark One, to strengthen the gates/ world prison, if the Dark One/ redcloak cannot be convinced to cooperate. There could even be a dramatic sacrifice of a beloved misunderstood character.

Things I cant explain:
MitD eating so much. It doesnt strike me as being titan-like though it features so heavily in his character. Could just be fore the jokes...
Him being recognized by the hunters, if MitD is like, the last titan, or one of the last... although most people posit that the hunters are there to say that he is not unique/part of a species that Rich didnt make up solely for the comic.
The titans not being mentioned before in the comic. I would think Rich would have other titans of the gods at least featured somewhere in the comic as a clue. Maybe that would make it too easy, or maybe it will be explained as a Eastern (greek) pantheon only race. MitD just survived somehow.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hi, been reading the comic since sometime around the war for Azure city was newly updating. So probably at least 15 years. I've been playing D&D since even before that.

So I will toss in my guess as to what the MitD is: a titan. Specifically an earlier edition titan.

No link to this "earlier edition titan", so cannot judge it directly. Indirectly:

Older edition creatures are either automatically updated to 3.5 or, if there is no 3.5 version, preserve their original stats precisely and trapped in Dorukan's dungeon by his amulet. For titans, their case seems to be the first. They are 25 feet tall, have no explanation for the escape and while they can become smaller and still wield a gargantuan sized hammer, for some bizarre reason ("A titan can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. The titan retains its oversized weapon special attack regardless of form." -> "A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.") in its smaller size the SBGH would be involving themselves in slavery, not monster hunting, which is very much out of character. And the circus definitely doesn't work either way, since "it's just a dude" is not "an unrecognizable IT", unless he picked a remarkably strange humanoid, in which case, that's the species we're looking for.

I know it's been brought up before and dismissed

It in section 3e, in both basic and elder variations. It has in no way, shape or form been "dismissed".

Grey Wolf

[Sir_Norbert]

Titans come from Aborea, a wild planar landscape named after dense forest/JUNGLE- like what MitD says hes from

MitD does not say he is from the jungle. He is found in a jungle, but the hunters say that it's surprising to find one of his species there.