MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Keltest]

Also, can't the Dao, and genies in general, only grant the wishes of non-genies? Because there sure weren't any wishes expressed in the Escape.

[halfeye]

My initial thought is "maybe". I've got it organized currently by the order people made their initial guess and kind of like keeping track of that. I could still keep track the other way, but it'd be enough of a hassle I wouldn't keep it up. Alphabetical by username would certainly make it easier to find various people's specific guesses (which I assume is what you're looking for). Let me think about it.

Another way to organise it would be alphabetically buy monster species. I suggest you leave it as it is.

[Tzardok]

If I'm reading this right, you're saying the Tower Scene is just a lie and MitD wasn't hitting as lightly as possible?
.

Seems right. IIRC the Ox has made statements in that direction for as long as I've known him.

Also, can't the Dao, and genies in general, only grant the wishes of non-genies? Because there sure weren't any wishes expressed in the Escape.

That is correct.

[Ruck]

Seems right. IIRC the Ox has made statements in that direction for as long as I've known him.

"The strip is lying to us" would contradict Rich's "It is possible to guess." In general, I think "the things that happened in the story didn't happen" is a bad way to analyze the story, and a bad way to write a story.

[Metastachydium]

Also, can't the Dao, and genies in general, only grant the wishes of non-genies? Because there sure weren't any wishes expressed in the Escape.

The Glabrezu has the same issue, but the Dao, at least, has Telepathy to potentially work around it. O-Chul agreeing, aloud, that he and V must get out of there might also count.

[b_jonas]

Also, can't the Dao, and genies in general, only grant the wishes of non-genies? Because there sure weren't any wishes expressed in the Escape.

I agree with the flower, an MitD that can grant wishes of others makes for a better explanation. O-Chul decided that it was now time to get away (#661 4th). Vaarsuvius probably agrees, but she's paralyzed so we can't really tell. The MitD grants their wishes, so they teleport away. No problem with why the MitD didn't teleport with them.

[Tubercular Ox]

Why would the author, who controls whether or not anyone gets hit, need her to stay still?

I don't get how the Tower Scene is supposed to work. Rich orchestrated every panel to convey meaningful details about the strength and concentration of the Monster in the Dark, but the Monster in the Dark backhanding Miko in melee instead of teeballing her with a full wind-up isn't supposed to have an effect on that interpretation.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying the Tower Scene is just a lie and MitD wasn't hitting as lightly as possible?

No, you are not reading that correctly. One interpretation of the hit lightly contest is that a monster has to do everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible. So switching to a weaker form, picking your weakest attack, and, just for fun, going for subdual damage all count towards hitting as lightly as possible.

However, there are no rules for holding back on your attack, nor are there rules for reducing the knockback your attack does, so if a monster goes through with their attack and it produces full knockback, it still counts as trying to hit lightly, since it has done everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible.

Otherwise you're arguing that Rich was honor bound to create house rules that let monsters hit even more lightly than was allowed by the rules, and that somehow this is better for the guessing game than just following the rules.

Following what Argis said, the durability of the hit lightly game is that there are no printed rules for it, so it can never be argued against.

[Crusher]

Half its current rules are very vague, though. "Plausible explanation" this and "plausible explanation" that. No hard benchmarks, no exact measures or guidelines.




The shout doesn't seem to do damage or anything, whereas the earthquake would literally disqualify all FBS creatures.

At any rate, then, for excrement and merriment, I hereby propose that the Dao be added to the FBS list, on account of meeting all the criteria specified in Section 3a, as argued, in detail, in the attached post.

Ah, so, you're at least semi-serious? Well, ok.

I agree the Glabrezu is a pretty weak candidate, and I wouldn't have a problem with having it be de-listed, but I'll at least put up a token defense for it along the way. As an aside, I have a number of thoughts on the FBS list but they have thus far shared a "GW will strangle me" aftertaste so I'm waiting until a better idea presents itself.

Back on topic, conveniently for human (as far as you know)-plant camaraderie, we'll start with a Pro.

1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape - I agree Telepathy-Limited Wish is a good solution to the Escape. Its not a great answer, because Limited Wish can only replicate up to 6th level Wizard/Sorcerer spells and Greater Teleport is 7th level, but it can still do regular Teleport which is fine. Telepathy to get confirmation on the LW and where to go. Its within rounding of the Glabrezu's answer (also has telepathy) and I think "can only grant other's wishes" is a great explanation.

2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence) - No on both. 22 STR isn't strong enough, and there's no reason to think MitD is a freakishly large member of its species (evidence to the contrary, in fact) or otherwise has a template. Defenses are nowhere good enough. Game rules say Gaseous Form doesn't work like that (and that scene could easily be Roy missing or relatively light-damage hits). Plus, a Dao has 52hp. That's, uh, not sturdy.

Glabrezu has DR 10/Good which actually isn't terrible. Both Belkar and Miko are "lots of light hits" attackers rather than "a few big hits" and while it strains credulity either would be using non-magical weapons, its entirely plausible neither is using a Good-aligned weapon (Belkar *certainly* isn't and Paladin weapons aren't automatically Good-aligned unless they're Smiting Evil, I think).

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions) - Nope. A Dao is pretty low on the "weird-looking" meter. Sure, it could make itself be weird looking, but that defeats the "stand there and do nothing" aspect of MitD's act.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception) - Huh. I always thought Dao's (and Efreeti, etc) were Elementals but they're Outsiders. I suppose that makes sense as they do seem to eat/sleep/etc in ways that regular Elementals don't. Anyway, its fine.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich. - Yep, good.

6) Size/strength requirement (unless suggestion does not depend on strength for the above explanations) - Not too big, but is too weak.
Up to Huge: 30 STR
Gargantuan: 38 STR
Colossal: 46 STR
Colossal +: 54 STR

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD) - Yep!

So, I'm afraid I'm a "no".

[Doug Lampert]

Are you telling me I spent all these hours making a quick and expressive half-turn for nothing?!

Hey, your leaves got to face the sun, what more do you want?

Spells and SLAs can also be dismissed by the caster anytime. Doesn't provoke either. It has an action cost, but nothing MitD couldn't squeeze in between being attacked and attacking.

Not all spells can be, just the ones with a (D) after the duration. Like this:

Gaseous Form
Transmutation
Level: Air 3, Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing corporeal creature touched
Duration: 2 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

[Ruck]

No, you are not reading that correctly. One interpretation of the hit lightly contest is that a monster has to do everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible. So switching to a weaker form, picking your weakest attack, and, just for fun, going for subdual damage all count towards hitting as lightly as possible.

However, there are no rules for holding back on your attack, nor are there rules for reducing the knockback your attack does, so if a monster goes through with their attack and it produces full knockback, it still counts as trying to hit lightly, since it has done everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible.

Otherwise you're arguing that Rich was honor bound to create house rules that let monsters hit even more lightly than was allowed by the rules, and that somehow this is better for the guessing game than just following the rules.

Following what Argis said, the durability of the hit lightly game is that there are no printed rules for it, so it can never be argued against.

OK, I think I understand your position better, albeit I still don't understand how

"If [MITD is] not [hitting as lightly as possible], then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game?
"You just answered yourself."

gets to it.

(I don't really know the rules in detail. I assume that MitD did in fact do everything in his power to hit Miko and Windstriker as lightly as possible, whatever that entails under the rules, and even so he still knocked them through the tower wall and a great distance through the air after that.)

[Kish]

The glabrezu has already been removed from the FBS. Why are you arguing for it to be removed?

I am opposed to the dao, or any other similarly weak creature, replacing it.

I also firmly believe that the tower scene was Rich going, "Time to show how powerful my mystery monster is," not "time to create a false impression that my mystery monster is far more powerful than he actually is."

[Argis13]

However, there are no rules for holding back on your attack, nor are there rules for reducing the knockback your attack does, so if a monster goes through with their attack and it produces full knockback, it still counts as trying to hit lightly, since it has done everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible.

Otherwise you're arguing that Rich was honor bound to create house rules that let monsters hit even more lightly than was allowed by the rules, and that somehow this is better for the guessing game than just following the rules.

Following what Argis said, the durability of the hit lightly game is that there are no printed rules for it, so it can never be argued against.

Yes that is what I said, and what I think the consensus interpretation is.

"This is just a basic attack" or "Hitting as lightly as possible means it's a basic attack, and MitD did only minimum dice damage, as part of a DM quick ruling" or "Rich made a special house rule for hitting as lightly as possible" all amount to the basically the same thing on our end: MitD is really strong, plus or minus some extra fluff on the attack that we can deal with on a case by case basis.

How strong? Well, we don't know what Rich's Special STR to Knockback formula is, if there is one, and we don't know how far Miko and her horse flew, and we don't know exactly how this relates to the earthquake. Any number on the FBS list is an arbitrary line in the sand, IIRC, mostly chosen to keep the candidate list at a reasonable size. We do know that MitD is strong, and we have a consensus-based line, so I'm not sure what the actionable outcome is here.

EDIT: Didn't someone, in thread 2 or 3, do an analysis on how the Tower scene could have happened? I'll try and find it.

EDIT EDIT: Started on thread 1, and then remembered that I could just look at the First post.

EDIT X3: Okay, I was looking at the wrong Nerdanal post (2b rather than 1d - thanks GW!)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

EDIT: Didn't someone, in thread 2 or 3, do an analysis on how the Tower scene could have happened? I'll try and find it.

Nerdanel did. You can find the link in the OP, 1d.

GW

[3Power]

"If [MITD is] not [hitting as lightly as possible], then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game?

(I don't really know the rules in detail. I assume that MitD did in fact do everything in his power to hit Miko and Windstriker as lightly as possible, whatever that entails under the rules, and even so he still knocked them through the tower wall and a great distance through the air after that.)

I was able to explore the idea that the monster itself isn’t really aware of all of its capabilities. In #374, it tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails.

The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant, we know he failed to do so.

EDIT: Didn't someone, in thread 2 or 3, do an analysis on how the Tower scene could have happened? I'll try and find it.

Nerdanel did. You can find the link in the OP, 1d.

They eventually became dissatisfied with the explanation and proposed telekinetic thrust instead.

[Ruck]

The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant

No it isn't. If MitD attempted to hit lightly and still hit that hard, that indicates his lightest hit is still extremely strong. It's irrelevant if you think "tried and failed to hit lightly" means he still hit at full power, but I don't see a reason to conclude that from the strip or Rich's comment.

[Crusher]

The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant, we know he failed to do so.


They eventually became dissatisfied with the explanation and proposed telekinetic thrust instead.

Yeah, but, 1) that's just one person's theorizing not commonly accepted wisdom (Just because you come up with something that's really solid one time doesn't mean you're suddenly infallible on everything else), and 2) not to make fun of Nerdanel, but that logic is kind of annoyingly rules lawyer-y. Since it doesn't technically say you stop when hitting a solid object, maybe the target just somehow passes through the object in an unspecified way? *That* is a compelling argument? That's like an order of magnitude less critical thinking than they applied to working out the STR requirements.

The glabrezu has already been removed from the FBS. Why are you arguing for it to be removed?

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. I feel less need to defend its honor now.

[3Power]

No it isn't. If MitD attempted to hit lightly and still hit that hard, that indicates his lightest hit is still extremely strong.

No it doesn't. It means he tried to hit lightly, failed to hit lightly, and we have no idea what hitting lightly would actually look like for him.

In the tower scene we are shown a failed attempt at hitting lightly, not the result of successfully hitting lightly.

[Kish]

The fact that the creature was trying to hit as lightly as possible means he won't have been using means to hit as hard as possible.

And yes, that is relevant, because people have proposed reaching an appropriate Strength number through means ranging from extreme amounts of Power Attack to self-buffs over the years.

[3Power]

The fact that the creature was trying to hit as lightly as possible means he won't have been using means to hit as hard as possible.

No, it means that he didn't intentionally use those means.

And yes, that is relevant, because people have proposed reaching an appropriate Strength number through means ranging from extreme amounts of Power Attack to self-buffs over the years.

Power attack doesn't increase strength, it increases damage. Without Power attack the protean does 28 damage average.

An 18 STR fighter with no magic items is able to do that with a power attack and a mundane greatsword at level 15.

Is current Roy attacking at full strength able to send his opponents flying across the horizon? No? Then how is the protean supposed to be able to do that at minimum power?

[InvisibleBison]

The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant, we know he failed to do so.

How do we know this? We know that MitD delivered a very powerful blow to both Miko and Windstriker, but where is the proof that he's capable of delivering less powerful blows? Unless I'm forgetting something, the tower scene is the only time MitD ever attacks anyone. What evidence is there that those attacks aren't just the least powerful attacks he can deliver?

[Crusher]

How do we know this? We know that MitD delivered a very powerful blow to both Miko and Windstriker, but where is the proof that he's capable of delivering less powerful blows? Unless I'm forgetting something, the tower scene is the only time MitD ever attacks anyone. What evidence is there that those attacks aren't just the least powerful attacks he can deliver?

I think 3Power has a point, here. We've seen MitD interact reasonably normally with his surroundings. Sure, they've mentioned that he's gigantically strong and a risk of accidentally destroying even very durable things (like being cautious with the phylactery around him), but we've also seen him eat popcorn from a bowl and pick up buckets and Go pieces and whatnot without destroying them. He CAN touch things lightly, we've seen him do it. He's just not very good at it. MitD touching something isn't an automatic 10d8+12 bludgeoning damage or whatever.

Given that he didn't accidentally launch his tacos over Dorukan's fortress, I think its fair to say he either did indeed fail at hitting Miko lightly OR he's got some kind of odd mechanic by which attacking switches him to some different kind of mechanism or STR level or something and he really does have a freakishly high minimum damage level he cannot scale back. I can imagine how such a mechanic would work but I can't think of...

Oh, wait, actually I can. In some versions, Modrons or other creatures of extreme Law do fixed amounts of damage when they hit, not 1d8+3 or whatever, they always do a flat 7 whenever they attack. And I remember a magic sword of Law from somewhere that always rolled a "12" when it attacked. So, its not impossible but its super rare.

Edit - To clarify, this doesn't really impact our estimation of MitD's STR. The original analysis, iirc, was all done assuming MitD is exerting maximum effort, using feats, etc. Which is part of why everyone makes a big deal about a 30 STR being the minimum. A 30 STR is the very bottom end of plausible for MitD to pull off punching Miko through the wall assuming he's using maximum effort and has an optimal build for punching people vast distances and through walls. If he was *successfully* punching lightly, then a 30 STR is grossly inadequate.

[Keltest]

So, I think the obvious joke there is that he does like 1d10 plus a billion damage or something where even rolling low on his damage roll sends people flying, and the reason he doesnt do that for popcorn is because he isnt attacking the popcorn, just handling it. Roy has a giant's strength all the time, and we don't see him pull doors off their hinges or anything either, but wearing the belt is still enough to make you hit like a truck when you actually want to hurt someone.

[Crusher]

...wearing the belt is still enough to make you hit like a truck when you actually want to hurt someone.

That's the key, though, "when you actually want to hurt someone." MitD didn't want to hurt Miko, he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.

The only way its interesting is if he's actually a denizen of Mechanus or whatever and a creature of Law whose abilities do fixed amounts of damage when he hits someone regardless of what he's trying to do. I don't particularly think this is the case but its at least plausible this was an attempt to hint at this extremely obscure case. I can't think of any monsters of Law that would fit the bill, though.

[Keltest]

That's the key, though, "when you actually want to hurt someone." MitD didn't want to hurt Miko, he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.

The only way its interesting is if he's actually a denizen of Mechanus or whatever and a creature of Law whose abilities do fixed amounts of damage when he hits someone regardless of what he's trying to do. I don't particularly think this is the case but its at least plausible this was an attempt to hint at this extremely obscure case. I can't think of any monsters of Law that would fit the bill, though.

From a rules perspective, everyone works like that though? Strength bonus to damage isnt a range, its just a flat value.

[Metastachydium]

I agree with the flower

Yay!

Back on topic, conveniently for human (as far as you know)-plant camaraderie, we'll start with a Pro.

You know who's a Pro? You are a Pro! Yes to human (as far as I know) – plant camaraderie!

Hey, your leaves got to face the sun, what more do you want?

Okay, fair, but it was still an effort!

The glabrezu has already been removed from the FBS. Why are you arguing for it to be removed?

Because I totally missed that. My VICTORY is COMPLETE!!

I am opposed to the dao, or any other similarly weak creature, replacing it.

Yeah, actually so am I. I was just drifting into the absurd to make a point I didn't know I didn't need to make. I am now officially abandonig the proposition to declare the Dao an FBS candidate, on account of the notion being oddly sound in principle, but also immeasurably silly. Sorry about the mess.

[Metastachydium]

That's the key, though, "when you actually want to hurt someone." MitD didn't want to hurt Miko, he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.

The only way its interesting is if he's actually a denizen of Mechanus or whatever and a creature of Law whose abilities do fixed amounts of damage when he hits someone regardless of what he's trying to do. I don't particularly think this is the case but its at least plausible this was an attempt to hint at this extremely obscure case. I can't think of any monsters of Law that would fit the bill, though.

From a rules perspective, everyone works like that though? Strength bonus to damage isnt a range, its just a flat value.

Going for nonlethal damage or somesuch would still track, though. Miko and Her Stupid Horse did survive quite the hit, after all, and given how far they were flung, I could see the falling damage accounting for most of their wounds.

Hm. Is there a way to make a single attack count as an off-hand attack?

[InvisibleBison]

MitD didn't want to hurt Miko,

Yes, he did. He intended to attack her. Sure, he was trying to hurt her as minimally as possible, but he was still trying to hurt her.

he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.

Again, where is the evidence that MitD failed to hit Miko lightly and instead hit her for full strength? People keep making this assertion, but no one has provided any proof to back it up. MitD not damaging things when he isn't hitting them doesn't prove that he can hit things lightly; it just proves that he can not hit things.

[Tubercular Ox]

Again, where is the evidence that MitD failed to hit Miko lightly and instead hit her for full strength? People keep making this assertion, but no one has provided any proof to back it up. MitD not damaging things when he isn't hitting them doesn't prove that he can hit things lightly; it just proves that he can not hit things.

There is no proof, but there is no rule for holding back, so your argument is that Rich is required to invent a house rule in order to have a hit lightly contest, and that said house rule can't have provisions for failing to hit lightly, or if they have such provisions it must be obvious from a hit that's bigger than every possible hit from any monster in D&D that an even bigger hit is possible, if the Monster in the Dark would just stop goofing off.

And once you're in house rule territory, you lose all objectivity. The Tower Scene is the literacy test of the guessing game. It's technically possible to pass, but what really matters is whether the poll workers think you deserve to vote.

[ReaderAt2046]

I think 3Power has a point, here. We've seen MitD interact reasonably normally with his surroundings. Sure, they've mentioned that he's gigantically strong and a risk of accidentally destroying even very durable things (like being cautious with the phylactery around him), but we've also seen him eat popcorn from a bowl and pick up buckets and Go pieces and whatnot without destroying them. He CAN touch things lightly, we've seen him do it. He's just not very good at it. MitD touching something isn't an automatic 10d8+12 bludgeoning damage or whatever.

Given that he didn't accidentally launch his tacos over Dorukan's fortress, I think its fair to say he either did indeed fail at hitting Miko lightly OR he's got some kind of odd mechanic by which attacking switches him to some different kind of mechanism or STR level or something and he really does have a freakishly high minimum damage level he cannot scale back. I can imagine how such a mechanic would work but I can't think of...

As I mentioned previously, this is one of my personal arguments in favor of the Protean. It seems to me quite plausible that a Protean which doesn't have full control over its shifting might go to strike a blow and then discover that it has grown a bunch of extra muscles and hit way harder than it intended to.

[Keltest]

There is no proof, but there is no rule for holding back, so your argument is that Rich is required to invent a house rule in order to have a hit lightly contest, and that said house rule can't have provisions for failing to hit lightly, or if they have such provisions it must be obvious from a hit that's bigger than every possible hit from any monster in D&D that an even bigger hit is possible, if the Monster in the Dark would just stop goofing off.

And once you're in house rule territory, you lose all objectivity. The Tower Scene is the literacy test of the guessing game. It's technically possible to pass, but what really matters is whether the poll workers think you deserve to vote.

It definitely does not require a houserule, it just means he needs to fail to hit lightly. If I roll a D20 for my damage and you roll 3d6, I can hit lighter than you if I roll a 2, or harder than you if I roll a 20. I don't need a houserule for that.