MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Crusher]

As may have been implied by my own posts, I use them to track lots of information. (Not only in poker, but also for, say, the various countdowns and lists I write up for TV and music, to make sure I don't forget anything. Or for, like, statistical breakdowns of NFL Draft prospects. And probably there are other things, but I feel like I've divulged too much about my interests already.)

Its funny, I very rarely make lists of stuff and when I do, its for a specific purpose. I used to spend a lot of time on a website devoted to predicting movie box office performance and people would regularly put together lists of "top 50 movies of 2012" or whatever, assembled from lists the other people on the site would send them. I've created many such lists and sent them to people for such reasons, but it'd never occur to me to put together a list without an end purpose like that.

Admittedly, I haven't been in a fantasy sports league in a long time. I'd want lists for that.

Funny how the sorts of things you end up needing to keep track of, and what form of information matters to you, as life goes on.

[Tubercular Ox]

I can think of at least five people off the top of my head you have misquoted, mis-paraphrased, and thus mis-assigned opinions to that aren't theirs-- and in some cases you have insisted you were correct to do so, or that you have some rule against looking up what they actually said and therefore your paraphrasing should be good enough.

How often does that have to happen before you start to consider that it's you, not them?

Three times. I worry about this a lot. My current theory is that I do suffer misunderstandings in places other than this forum, but the reason I can’t remember them is because, everywhere except this forum, I’m able to resolve those misunderstandings in a reasonable time frame.

That makes me just like everyone else. We all get stuck in long, pedantic conversations that are so unsatisfying that we feel compelled to have them again every time there’s a trigger. I’m not the only one who thinks so, the horrible discussions we have is a running gag for many people. Even Grey Wolf is frustrated with having the same conversations over and over.

While it might be difficult to quit these conversations, I don’t think they’re necessary. Look at what Kish did:

As we have been over in some detail, if the creature in the darkness is a hunting horror than it depends on Rich's "It is possible to guess...it's not something I made up" covering "I used this other game system, which told me to make up a spell, so I did so and used that made-up spell in a key scene." It depends on the creature actually being far physically weaker than either the tower scene or the earthquake scene indicates. It depends on the creature being in the darkness not because Xykon and Redcloak keep him there though he wishes not to be, but because light, unheralded, hurts him.

The creature in the darkness is a Hunting Horror if Rich wrote a Cthulhu D20-based shaggy dog story.

If I mentally replace, “This is it,” with, “Kish thinks this should be it,” then what this paragraph actually says is that, if Rich reveals a Hunting Horror, then I’m right about the things we disagree on. This feels like more traction on an issue than I’ve gotten in a year of being here. I am excited to have this in my signature, and if all of my interactions with Kish were like this, then I would feel like I could keep talking to him after the reveal, regardless of who was right.

So my mission now is to have more interactions like that, and less like this:

I think the name of the book the protean is found in is enough to establish that it's not meant for normal encounters, and any scene that illustrates the creature in the darkness being massively powerful is enough to establish that his mysterious species is not meant for normal encounters. Convenient dovetailing there.

I am saying that:

is a story development process significantly below the quality I expect from Rich after six books. And that's what I'm supposed to be responding to: it as a story, unconnected to anything actually in the comic. Right?

If we're actually talking about the story that's in the comic, how about this:

Rich has the creature hit Miko and her horse each once. Each of them is knocked through a wall. They take damage. It is an unspecified amount of damage below the amount that would kill either of them.

"This is him hitting as lightly as he can" points to "he is massively strong and doesn't know this." It does not point to "something Rich wouldn't want would happen if he actually tried to punch Miko," except insofar as lacking a joke and lacking a "massively strong!" highlight would be things Rich doesn't want. It does not indicate that when he said "hit the lightest" he actually meant "use some kind of special attack which should be explicitly distinguished from a word that actually means hitting."

And it should surprise no one that I do not agree with your paraphrase of the text you quoted from Rich.

(Indeed, considering your complaints that "the Protean has ruined the thread"-- even setting aside your presumption of speaking for many other people there-- have you considered that the only reason we're discussing the Protean today is because you brought it up?)

Yes, I’m weak. But that’s the point. There is something addictive happening that sucks all of us into conversations that many seem to find draining.

[Ruck]

Three times. I worry about this a lot. My current theory is that I do suffer misunderstandings in places other than this forum, but the reason I can’t remember them is because, everywhere except this forum, I’m able to resolve those misunderstandings in a reasonable time frame.

That makes me just like everyone else. We all get stuck in long, pedantic conversations that are so unsatisfying that we feel compelled to have them again every time there’s a trigger. I’m not the only one who thinks so, the horrible discussions we have is a running gag for many people. Even Grey Wolf is frustrated with having the same conversations over and over.

In that case, I wish I had more specific advice, but I don't really beyond "maybe don't paraphrase as much, and just take people at their word; or clarify that your understanding of what they said is indeed what they meant." At least by my own observation, the people I'm thinking of don't seem to have as many problems being misinterpreted by other people as by you.

While it might be difficult to quit these conversations, I don’t think they’re necessary. Look at what Kish did:

If I mentally replace, “This is it,” with, “Kish thinks this should be it,” then what this paragraph actually says is that, if Rich reveals a Hunting Horror, then I’m right about the things we disagree on. This feels like more traction on an issue than I’ve gotten in a year of being here. I am excited to have this in my signature, and if all of my interactions with Kish were like this, then I would feel like I could keep talking to him after the reveal, regardless of who was right.

So my mission now is to have more interactions like that, and less like this:

The interesting thing to me here is that you find this satisfactory, when I think there's an unspoken element to Kish's statement, namely, that we know this is not a Cthulhu D20-based shaggy dog story, but a story based loosely on D&D 3.5, with the MitD's species being "possible to guess."

Which plays into something I've been thinking about, and maybe I'm wrong, but it occurs to me that perhaps your rhetoric and argument in these threads have been toward convincing people that what you want to happen could happen, rather than trying to determine what is most likely to happen.

Yes, I’m weak. But that’s the point. There is something addictive happening that sucks all of us into conversations that many seem to find draining.

Heh, well, I certainly can't take any high ground on anybody finding the lure of internet discussions and arguments too appealing to resist.

[lio45]

So no, I disagree that it is a con. It is, in my opinion, a pro. It is one of very few suggestions that have an in-story reason to be surprising when it speaks (together with pokemons, of all things, although not uniquely - the zodar also has one) that does not require Rich to have given it a language it doesn't posses and have had to lampshade it.

Agree, because in basically all other cases, either the SBGHs are of course correct and the creature shouldn't be able to speak (which means that Rich took liberties with the monster entry, which is normally a big no no) or else Rich didn't fudge the monster but then the SBGHs don't know the creature (which is also not good).

[Ruck]

Agree, because in basically all other cases, either the SBGHs are of course correct and the creature shouldn't be able to speak (which means that Rich took liberties with the monster entry, which is normally a big no no) or else Rich didn't fudge the monster but then the SBGHs don't know the creature (which is also not good).

I would be OK with it being fudged in the former case because it's a surprise to the SBGHs-- if it was a creature that shouldn't be able to speak, then Rich is letting us know how MitD is an exception to that here, like how Oona's comments let us know that MitD is smaller than a full-grown member of his species. (Obviously, I still prefer the Protean as the fit, and the exception there being that it's even willing to talk to non-Proteans, but if it's something else and the story's highlighting that it's unusual he can speak, that would suffice for me.)

Fully agreed on the latter, though. There isn't really any reason for the SBGHs to be in the story or make comments about MitD if not as some kind of experts on monsters.

[Kish]

The interesting thing to me here is that you find this satisfactory, when I think there's an unspoken element to Kish's statement, namely, that we know this is not a Cthulhu D20-based shaggy dog story, but a story based loosely on D&D 3.5, with the MitD's species being "possible to guess."

I did already say that I am confident Rich will not turn out to be writing a shaggy dog story. That's spoken, not unspoken.

And I mean. "Shaggy dog story" is not a neutral description, and the ox's new sig phrasing appears to understand that, whatever's going on with his posts in the thread lately.

[Keltest]

I would be OK with it being fudged in the former case because it's a surprise to the SBGHs-- if it was a creature that shouldn't be able to speak, then Rich is letting us know how MitD is an exception to that here, like how Oona's comments let us know that MitD is smaller than a full-grown member of his species. (Obviously, I still prefer the Protean as the fit, and the exception there being that it's even willing to talk to non-Proteans, but if it's something else and the story's highlighting that it's unusual he can speak, that would suffice for me.)

Fully agreed on the latter, though. There isn't really any reason for the SBGHs to be in the story or make comments about MitD if not as some kind of experts on monsters.

I agree with this. If they aren't commenting on a characteristic of the MITD in some fashion, the SBGHs don't really bring anything to the scene. We already know the MITD speaks in common, it is indeed self evident. So the only reason for them to go "hey, look, it talks!" is if doing so is unusual or otherwise worthy of commentary. Especially since the MITD speaking is one of the only things established about him before Rich actually picked a monster.

Adjacent to that, I think its also safe to derive that the SBGHs would logically understand that a Protean should be capable of speech in the abstract, even if they elect not to use a more, well, sane language when they vocalize. If nothing else, theyre intelligent enough to be able to speak multiple languages, and have the capacity to gain the anatomy to do so, based on the stat block linked in the OP.

[Ruck]

I agree with this. If they aren't commenting on a characteristic of the MITD in some fashion, the SBGHs don't really bring anything to the scene. We already know the MITD speaks in common, it is indeed self evident. So the only reason for them to go "hey, look, it talks!" is if doing so is unusual or otherwise worthy of commentary. Especially since the MITD speaking is one of the only things established about him before Rich actually picked a monster.

Adjacent to that, I think its also safe to derive that the SBGHs would logically understand that a Protean should be capable of speech in the abstract, even if they elect not to use a more, well, sane language when they vocalize. If nothing else, theyre intelligent enough to be able to speak multiple languages, and have the capacity to gain the anatomy to do so, based on the stat block linked in the OP.

Well, I still think with the Protean and how the species usually behaves, it would be surprising to the SBGHs that it is deigning to speak to them and in a language they understand.

Their exact dialogue is:

"My gods, is it talking? In common, no less!"
"Unbelievable!"

That could be interpreted as surprise it can talk, but notably they do not say "It can talk!" The surprise is that it is talking, and in Common. And that makes sense for a Protean, since they would not expect one to bother talking to them, and especially not in Common rather than its own language.

[Keltest]

Well, I still think with the Protean and how the species usually behaves, it would be surprising to the SBGHs that it is deigning to speak to them and in a language they understand.

Their exact dialogue is:

"My gods, is it talking? In common, no less!"
"Unbelievable!"

That could be interpreted as surprise it can talk, but notably they do not say "It can talk!" The surprise is that it is talking, and in Common. And that makes sense for a Protean, since they would not expect one to bother talking to them, and especially not in Common rather than its own language.

Look, im not opposed to the bit about common being listed as a pro, fair is fair. Its just the other half of the surprise that I don't think fits the protean. Assuming they have a decent knowledge of the Protean, they would know that they can and do speak amongst themselves, and I don't think their reaction adequately can contain an unspoken "to us!" in it.

[Ruck]

Look, im not opposed to the bit about common being listed as a pro, fair is fair. Its just the other half of the surprise that I don't think fits the protean. Assuming they have a decent knowledge of the Protean, they would know that they can and do speak amongst themselves, and I don't think their reaction adequately can contain an unspoken "to us!" in it.

OK.

As I said, I think the fact that their reaction is surprise it is talking, not that it can talk, is sufficient if MitD is a Protean, for what we know about them.

[Keltest]

OK.

As I said, I think the fact that their reaction is surprise it is talking, not that it can talk, is sufficient if MitD is a Protean, for what we know about them.

Sure, but... like I said, they do talk. To each other. If the surprise is at it deigning to vocalize at them, then I would argue them being surprised about it using common makes little sense. What other language would it use if it were deliberately trying to communicate with people who speak common?

ETA: I can break down the exact reason why I think the specific wording used does not work for what you think it does if you'd like.

[Ruck]

Sure, but... like I said, they do talk. To each other. If the surprise is at it deigning to vocalize at them, then I would argue them being surprised about it using common makes little sense. What other language would it use if it were deliberately trying to communicate with people who speak common?

ETA: I can break down the exact reason why I think the specific wording used does not work for what you think it does if you'd like.

I mean, people react in the moment in all sorts of ways; being surprised MitD is talking at all, and to them in their language, instead of, not talking or, I dunno, muttering to itself in its own language, makes enough sense to me. Like I don't think whatever pause in between the sentences there is going to give SBGH time to think, in this example, "Wow, a Protean is deigning to talk to us! But I guess it makes sense it would be talking in Common if it was communicating to us."

You're welcome to break it down, but I think since we're getting to the point of how we parse a handful of words, it might just be an element we don't agree on. (Especially since, as you well know, I think the Protean is the best fit overall and for a number of other scenes, so as long as a scene like this fits a standard of "Would it be plausible for them to react like this to a Protean?" and not necessarily "Is this exactly what I'd expect them to say about a Protean?", it's fine with me.)

[Keltest]

"My gods, is it talking? In common, no less!"
"Unbelievable!"

Well, lets start with this handy quote, because it saves me from having to go downstairs to find my copy of SoD and type out the same thing.

"Is it talking?" is pretty straightforward. Talking is unusual. This could be from capacity or inclination, fair enough, it matches either. But the second sentence expresses surprise about speaking in Common, indicating that the language use is separately surprising. But proteans are more intelligent than most humans have the capacity to be, and are telepathic to boot, so theres no reason at all to be surprised about its language use if it wanted to talk to them.

Which is a really roundabout way of saying its a really weird thing to be surprised about if you already knew about the creature, how it behaved, and what it could do.


ETA: Admittedly, I am a tiny bit confused about how the language rules would apply to the protean. The stat block linked doesnt have any languages listed, but theyre described as having their own racial language in the full text. So do they only know the Protean language and just communicate telepathically with everyone else, or do they get the full selection of languages of their choice given by their intelligence score, plus the protean language, which is a non-language for all meaningful purposes?

[Ruck]

ETA: Admittedly, I am a tiny bit confused about how the language rules would apply to the protean. The stat block linked doesnt have any languages listed, but theyre described as having their own racial language in the full text. So do they only know the Protean language and just communicate telepathically with everyone else, or do they get the full selection of languages of their choice given by their intelligence score, plus the protean language, which is a non-language for all meaningful purposes?

I think the fluff on Protean social behavior, and possibly their knowledge of languages as well, is from a source other than the SRD, but I'm not an expert on the details and sourcebooks. Someone else will know, I'm sure.

edit:

Well, lets start with this handy quote, because it saves me from having to go downstairs to find my copy of SoD and type out the same thing.

"Is it talking?" is pretty straightforward. Talking is unusual. This could be from capacity or inclination, fair enough, it matches either. But the second sentence expresses surprise about speaking in Common, indicating that the language use is separately surprising. But proteans are more intelligent than most humans have the capacity to be, and are telepathic to boot, so theres no reason at all to be surprised about its language use if it wanted to talk to them.

Which is a really roundabout way of saying its a really weird thing to be surprised about if you already knew about the creature, how it behaved, and what it could do.

Alternately:

"My gods, is it talking?" - Why is a Protean talking? There are no other Proteans around / it might just communicate telepathically even if there were.
"In common, no less!" - Wow, he's talking to us!
"Unbelievable!" - A Protean, which normally disregards other species except to kill and/or digest them, speaking in Common to mere humans!

[Keltest]

Alternately:

"My gods, is it talking?" - Why is a Protean talking? There are no other Proteans around / it might just communicate telepathically even if there were.
"In common, no less!" - Wow,, he's talking to us!
"Unbelievable!" - A Protean, which normally disregards other species except to kill and/or digest them, speaking in Common to mere humans!

Thats what I'm talking about. There are words that mean "he's talking to us!" directly. He's surprised at the use of common, and while its technically possible for the subtext to mean that theyre surprised he's talking to them in common, thats not really particularly organic english.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agree, because in basically all other cases, either the SBGHs are of course correct and the creature shouldn't be able to speak (which means that Rich took liberties with the monster entry, which is normally a big no no) or else Rich didn't fudge the monster but then the SBGHs don't know the creature (which is also not good).

To be clear, I agree that taking liberties with the monster entry is generally a "big no no" for purposes of this thread, but in this case, I accept it might be an exception, because the scene is structured in the form of the standard lampshade hanging trope. Which we know is a thing Rich is aware of and has employed... amongst other evidence because it is literally the image of the linked page.

But as with anything else, I find that a creature that fits directly without fudging is superior to one that does need to invoke a trope like lampshade hanging, and any that does that is superior to one that just invokes author handwave.

---

Not going to quote the back-and-forth between Ruch & Keltest, but FTR, my position is that a protean addressing any non-protean (or at best any non-shapeshifter), politely and in a comprehensible language instead of using a set of noises that only qualifies as language to other proteans is surprising. As is that of the infinite number of languages a protean can use, it chose common. Neither of those decisions is what anyone that knows anything about proteans would expect.

GW

[Ruck]

Not going to quote the back-and-forth between Ruch & Keltest, but FTR, my position is that a protean addressing any non-protean (or at best any non-shapeshifter), politely and in a comprehensible language instead of using a set of noises that only qualifies as language to other proteans is surprising. As is that of the infinite number of languages a protean can use, it chose common. Neither of those decisions is what anyone that knows anything about proteans would expect.

GW

I mean, yeah, well said. I know it's been established, but the reactions make sense, and that's all that matters to me. It just has to be plausible Rich would write them reacting to a Protean this way; it doesn't have to be the exact perfect wording you would use, and the standard at that point is just, I think, nitpicking. And, you know, my ability to convince other people is limited, and ultimately, the answer is what it is regardless of whatever anyone is convinced of or believes.

Now, coming back to this...

Its funny, I very rarely make lists of stuff and when I do, its for a specific purpose. I used to spend a lot of time on a website devoted to predicting movie box office performance and people would regularly put together lists of "top 50 movies of 2012" or whatever, assembled from lists the other people on the site would send them. I've created many such lists and sent them to people for such reasons, but it'd never occur to me to put together a list without an end purpose like that.

Admittedly, I haven't been in a fantasy sports league in a long time. I'd want lists for that.

Funny how the sorts of things you end up needing to keep track of, and what form of information matters to you, as life goes on.

I used to use more of my own rankings for fantasy sports, but other than the football dynasty leagues where I have rookie drafts, I don't really put a lot of effort into my own rankings anymore; I just go in with an idea of which guys I like more or less than the consensus rankings, and then draft that way or avoid drafting that way respectively.

I've written up a year-end TV countdown at another site for the last seven years, and last year I wrote up a countdown of my favorite songs of the year too. (I think I posted those in the media forum at the time?) I've done a couple other longer lists / retrospectives there too-- my favorite TV shows of the 2010s, my favorite albums of the 2000s. For those sorts of things, a spreadsheet is handy because I spend a lot of time moving items around the list until it looks right, and also because I would definitely forget some shows or songs etc. if I didn't.

And they're useful for some of my bigger creative projects just to keep track of all the relevant information.

The spreadsheet tricks I learned from my job have let me automate a lot of my online poker tracking: I do have to manually enter the info for each individual tournament, but then I can get an automated breakdown of how I'm doing based on game, site, buyin, and other factors.

[b_jonas]

What I'd like to know is, how often does it happen that a monster that normally shouldn't be able to speak speaks in OotS, or a monster that normally only speaks a different language speaks Common in OotS? Here are some possible examples, but there may be more that I don't recall right now.

• Displacer beasts. Do they normally speak in D&D 3.5?
• Should a Flumph normally be able to speak in a way that this humanoid therapist understands?
• Are these Ogres speaking in Common, or do they speak Giant but Roy and Haley both have that as bonus languages?
• This human zombie is repeating “your fault”, can they normally do that?
• I'm pretty sure fiendish roaches shouldn't be able to speak, but maybe the demon roaches aren't fiendish animals but some other kind of creatures.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What I'd like to know is, how often does it happen that a monster that normally shouldn't be able to speak speaks in OotS, or a monster that normally only speaks a different language speaks Common in OotS? Here are some possible examples, but there may be more that I don't recall right now.

• Displacer beasts. Do they normally speak in D&D 3.5?
• Should a Flumph normally be able to speak in a way that this humanoid therapist understands?
• Are these Ogres speaking in Common, or do they speak Giant but Roy and Haley both have that as bonus languages?
• This human zombie is repeating “your fault”, can they normally do that?
• I'm pretty sure fiendish roaches shouldn't be able to speak, but maybe the demon roaches aren't fiendish animals but some other kind of creatures.

I'm no position at this current moment to do the research for you, but the way I'd do it is: go to the stat sheet for those creatures. See if they have enough intelligence to be able to speak, see if the fluff or the entries mention anything about speech, see if they have any listed languages.

GW

[InvisibleBison]

Displacer beasts. Do they normally speak in D&D 3.5?

Yes, displacer beasts speak Common.

Should a Flumph normally be able to speak in a way that this humanoid therapist understands?

Flumphs speak Celestial, and some can also speak Common.

Are these Ogres speaking in Common, or do they speak Giant but Roy and Haley both have that as bonus languages?

I'm pretty sure those are trolls, not ogres, but in either case they wouldn't normally speak Common. However, both ogres and trolls normally have low Intelligence, but these trolls aren't shown speaking with the bold text usually used by low Intelligence creatures (eg, Thog or these ogres). That suggests they might be more intelligent than normal trolls, and if so they may know more languages. Alternatively, there's nothing stopping a low-Intelligence creature from spending its skill points on learning additional languages.

This human zombie is repeating “your fault”, can they normally do that?

That's a mummy, not a zombie, which can speak Common.

I'm pretty sure fiendish roaches shouldn't be able to speak, but maybe the demon roaches aren't fiendish animals but some other kind of creatures.

As far as I know there are no official stats for cockroaches, fiendish or otherwise, but presumably the fiendish roaches are roaches with the fiendish creature template, which would set their Intelligence scores to 3, the minimum necessary to be able to speak some language in theory. Whether or not a given fiendish creature actually can speak is up to the DM, so it's not impossible for fiendish roaches to be able to speak.

[Metastachydium]

Agree, because in basically all other cases, either the SBGHs are of course correct and the creature shouldn't be able to speak (which means that Rich took liberties with the monster entry, which is normally a big no no) or else Rich didn't fudge the monster but then the SBGHs don't know the creature (which is also not good).

Not going to quote the back-and-forth between Ruch & Keltest, but FTR, my position is that a protean addressing any non-protean (or at best any non-shapeshifter), politely and in a comprehensible language instead of using a set of noises that only qualifies as language to other proteans is surprising. As is that of the infinite number of languages a protean can use, it chose common. Neither of those decisions is what anyone that knows anything about proteans would expect.

GW

If only there were another creature, haughty, selfish, Chaotic and secretive, interestied mainly in inflicting pointless lethal violence on others, and while capable of speaking Common in theory, having a language of its own understood by few and Telepathy working on any creature with a language!

What I'd like to know is, how often does it happen that a monster that normally shouldn't be able to speak speaks in OotS, or a monster that normally only speaks a different language speaks Common in OotS?

If one accepts the general consensus that these are Carrion Crawlers, it happened before.

[Crusher]

As far as I know there are no official stats for cockroaches, fiendish or otherwise, but presumably the fiendish roaches are roaches with the fiendish creature template, which would set their Intelligence scores to 3, the minimum necessary to be able to speak some language in theory. Whether or not a given fiendish creature actually can speak is up to the DM, so it's not impossible for fiendish roaches to be able to speak.

Additionally, while I know we aren't supposed to assume stat scores based on specific behaviors (just because a character seems charming doesn't mean they have a high CHR, they might have rolled a 20), in the case of the Fiendish Roaches, there's absolutely no way all of them have a 3 INT. They have an extensive history of making funny, insightful comments and its just not plausible they're substantially dumber than Thog. Which suggests they aren't just roaches with the fiendish template.

No idea what they'd actually be, but not something with a default INT of 3. I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before but I don't recall the outcome. That they're some kind of obscure minor infernal, perhaps.

[Mordar]

Not going to quote the back-and-forth between Ruch & Keltest, but FTR, my position is that a protean addressing any non-protean (or at best any non-shapeshifter), politely and in a comprehensible language instead of using a set of noises that only qualifies as language to other proteans is surprising. As is that of the infinite number of languages a protean can use, it chose common. Neither of those decisions is what anyone that knows anything about proteans would expect.

GW

Why does it only qualify as a language to other proteans? Do dolphin clicks and chirps not qualify as a language to us, but only to other dolphins (and maybe whales)?

- M

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why does it only qualify as a language to other proteans?
- M

Because the fluff said so

"Hagunemnons have an ever-evolving language that changes so quickly that only another hagunemnon can understand it" (emphasis mine).

(ELH pg196)

Do dolphin clicks and chirps not qualify as a language to us, but only to other dolphins (and maybe whales)?

I do not believe dolphin chirps qualify as a language at all. Other than in seaQuest DSV.

GW

[Mordar]

Because the fluff said so

(ELH pg196)

I do not believe dolphin chirps qualify as a language at all. Other than in seaQuest DSV.

GW

The fluff says no one else can understand it, not that it isn't a language. I don't think the inability to understand prohibits recognition of something as a language, but YMMV. Even if the mutability prohibits ever understanding it, I think a bystander (at a safe distance) watching two Proteans communication audibly would reasonably believe they were communicating and thus have a language even if the bystander had 0 chance of ever comprehending any of it. Not that this bears on the thread topic much, but it does drive interpretation of the SBGH exclamations to mean

It looks like some animals use coded sounds to convey intent or signals. Proto-language, perhaps.

- M

[Peelee]

Why does it only qualify as a language to other proteans? Do dolphin clicks and chirps not qualify as a language to us, but only to other dolphins (and maybe whales)?

- M

By this argument, would you say that the following would be an appropriate reaction to a dolphin speaking to you?

"My gods, is it talking? In commonEnglish, no less!"
"Unbelievable!"

[b_jonas]

That's a mummy, not a zombie, which can speak Common.

Thank you, you're right, #856 5th confirms that they're mummies. Presumably they got naturally mummified, see #842 10th. That explains Malack's “rare resource” comment in #856 3rd. Clever.

[Mordar]

By this argument, would you say that the following would be an appropriate reaction to a dolphin speaking to you?

Yes, I think so.

Of course, I might think that a dolphin that popped its head out of the water and whistled/clicked at me was talking to me as well. Or, at least, trying to communicate.

If it said "So long, and thanks for all the fish!" I'd be shocked and then very, very sad.

- M

[Savil]

Why dolphins? Why not the sound of a connecting modem, or a washing machine switching between modes? Even moreso, why assume proteans only use verbal components? When I read that fluff, I imagine using all five senses. I doubt that flashing and smelling like gouda cheese at someone could be interpreted as communication.
Also, 'talking' and 'communicating' are different concepts. Perhaps SBGH would not be surprised if MitD was trying to communicate in a protean way, as it's not 'talking' in the common understanding of the word. Or perhaps they are surprised that it does not attack them immediately. Honestly, either explanation would do here. Protean has weak points, but this scene, IMHO, is not one of them.

[Mordar]

Why dolphins? Why not the sound of a connecting modem, or a washing machine switching between modes? Even moreso, why assume proteans only use verbal components? When I read that fluff, I imagine using all five senses. I doubt that flashing and smelling like gouda cheese at someone could be interpreted as communication.
Also, 'talking' and 'communicating' are different concepts. Perhaps SBGH would not be surprised if MitD was trying to communicate in a protean way, as it's not 'talking' in the common understanding of the word. Or perhaps they are surprised that it does not attack them immediately. Honestly, either explanation would do here. Protean has weak points, but this scene, IMHO, is not one of them.

Because dolphins definitively use audible sounds to signal one another - the question is to what extent does the communication exceed location signaling, and they have demonstrable ability to respond to distinct audible commands beyond a signal. Similarly, apes use vocalizations but definitively use them for more than location signaling, to the extent that there are individually identified calls (e.g. names/titles?). Re: Modems...interesting idea, that's probably a language of sorts.

If you've played Curse of the Azure Bonds or watched Close Encounters you might recognize it as communication.

Of course talking and communicating are separate concepts - or at least an umbrella concept and a sub-type. I'd say talking is the sub-type of communication that relies on distinct audibilizations to transmit information from one party to another. I believe two beings audibilizing to one another, particularly if there is detectable variation in the sounds, would generally be recognized as communicating, and in a multi-species kind of game setting like D&D, be called "talking".

I certainly agree non-verbal communication is a strong possibility for that creature. I never suggested it was only audible (much less only verbal). I agree that forming the lungs and flaps necessary to create humanoid speech, and having done it often enough to be intelligible as speaking is an exceptional stretch. But I would expect the fluff to have been phrased differently if it were absent audible elements. It wouldn't be called a language, IMO, but simply "communication".

- M