MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Peelee]

I don't have much to contribute in terms of theory crafting, but the discussion is a fun one to follow.

I'm going to go ahead and assume you were lured in by the devilishly clever title.

[3Power]

The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant, we know he failed to do so.

How do we know this? We know that MitD delivered a very powerful blow to both Miko and Windstriker, but where is the proof that he's capable of delivering less powerful blows? Unless I'm forgetting something, the tower scene is the only time MitD ever attacks anyone. What evidence is there that those attacks aren't just the least powerful attacks he can deliver?

Mitd was either capable of limiting his strength but failed to so so, or was incapable of limiting his strength and thereby failed to do so by default. Given that there's no evidence either way, the question of which scenario is true is irrelevant, as both are possible until proven.

So, I think the obvious joke there is that he does like 1d10 plus a billion damage or something where even rolling low on his damage roll sends people flying, and the reason he doesnt do that for popcorn is because he isnt attacking the popcorn, just handling it. Roy has a giant's strength all the time, and we don't see him pull doors off their hinges or anything either, but wearing the belt is still enough to make you hit like a truck when you actually want to hurt someone.

In contrast however, Mitd specifically has a reputation for breaking his toys and other things he might theoretically handle, such as the phylactery. I get the impression that he is often able to control his strength, just not when he gets excited.

From a rules perspective, everyone works like that though? Strength bonus to damage isnt a range, its just a flat value.

That's true in general, but given that a protean can change it's size at will, its STR has a range of -18 to +24 compared to its default. If a protean wanted to become flea sized it would have a strength of 35 and be doing 1d3 +12 damage, and if it chose a different natural attack, it could be a flat 13 damage.

Also, power attack serves as an effective strength boost, with each point of BAB sacrificed becoming an effective +2 to STR, but only when attacking. Hmmm.

Hm. Is there a way to make a single attack count as an off-hand attack?

If it is capable of having an off hand, yes.

Actually that made me realize something. Every creature has access to unarmed strike, so if the protean really wanted to hit as lightly as possible, he would do an off hand unarmed strike which would be 1d4 +10. Combine that with at-will shrinking, and the protean is now doing 1+6 damage.

To use everyone's favorite as an example, the Protean's base attack is listed as +33. Its regular attack is "Slam +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20)." And it has a strength of 53.

And as stated previously, that does a pathetic 28 damage on average, or are you going to claim that the STR provides the knockback effect completely independently of the damage the attack does?

Nothing, but we already know that large strength will knock enemies back in OOTS because we have evidence of it both from Roy doing so and Mr Scruffy slamming that worg when he had the belt of giant strength on.

Question: What do you think Roy is doing different, mechanically speaking, in the final page here? Because to me it looks like a power attack, which means the deciding factor is damage, not STR.

What doesn't involve house rules at all is: it wouldn't go with him trying to hit lightly at all to use a ton of Power Attack, cast Bull's Strength on himself, or in any other way hit especially hard.

If he can't control his abilities, he doesn't have a choice.

Yeah, like I said, I don't know the rules for the mechanics, but even so I think the simplest explanation is probably the correct one: MitD tried to play the "who can hit the lightest" game by trying to hit as lightly as he could. Rather than with a power attack, an unrelated power like Telekinetic Thrust, or what have you.

The problem is that the simplest explanation doesn't make any sense. A creature doing less damage than Roy does at full power should not be able to do what mitd does.

"the to-hit penalty is waived if you have Improved Unarmed Strike and are striking with your bare hands and/or feet," "you can't do this with a Sneak Attack, you're either aiming for vital organs to maximize your damage or deliberately hitting less effectively than you could, not both,"

To clarify, unarmed strikes do nonlethal damage by default, and improved unarmed strike allows you to switch between lethal and nonlethal damage at will without penalty. A rogue can also use sneak attack with any weapon that does nonlethal damage by default, such as unarmed strikes or a sap.

I always imagined the Miko and Windstryker punched through the wall scene to be similar to the D12 is the barbarian's best friend scene where the barbarian rolls d12+537 damage and the victim is hoping he rolls low.

Yeah, that makes sense to me, roughly what I was thinking. His base attack is so strong that it doesn't matter how lightly he tries to hit with it.

That's explicitly a power attack though.

There's no reason to think MitD's identity is going to be relevant to the plot, let alone important. MitD's plot relevance lies in what he does, not what he is.

A. What he is defines what he can do, and B. if what he is is irrelevant then answer to what he is would not be satisfying.

A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.

We do not know if Monster-san is or is supposed to become involved with The Snarl. It is an interesting idea for which we have nothing to support or refute.

We have the fact that he can cast a high level spell and that high level spells are needed to do anything with the gate.

While I've gone back and forth on the Protean over the years, as the story has progressed and we've seen more and more weird-looking monsters (Sunny, Lancer, Serini's froghemoth, Zz'dtri's piscodaemon, an otyugh) which provoke little to no reaction from the cast, it has become hard for me to accept simply a freaky-looking monster as an explanation for the circus scene and Xykon's reaction to MITD (this also plays a big role in why the Glabrezu is not in my top 3 choices anymore).

Elan was recently nauseated by a humanoid mimic with five fingers on each hand.

Yes, you'd be surprised that a Protean is choosing to speak in an ordinary language, but would you really be surprised that it can speak in the first place?

It explicitly speaks every single language in existence, so no.

[Keltest]

We have the fact that he can cast a high level spell and that high level spells are needed to do anything with the gate.

I'm sorry, what?

[InvisibleBison]

Mitd was either capable of limiting his strength but failed to so so, or was incapable of limiting his strength and thereby failed to do so by default. Given that there's no evidence either way, the question of which scenario is true is irrelevant, as both are possible until proven.

How does this statement disprove the possibility that MitD successfully limited the strength of his attack? You can't prove something false by assuming that it is in fact false.

And as stated previously, that does a pathetic 28 damage on average, or are you going to claim that the STR provides the knockback effect completely independently of the damage the attack does?

Given that the knockback displayed here was from an attack dealing at most 1d2+1 points of damage, I think it's safe to say that the knockback effect is in fact completely independent of the damage the attack deals.

[GeoffWatson]

Given that the knockback displayed here was from an attack dealing at most 1d2+1 points of damage, I think it's safe to say that the knockback effect is in fact completely independent of the damage the attack deals.

That's a belt of giant strength there, much more than 1d2+1.

[brian 333]

We have the fact that he can cast a high level spell and that high level spells are needed to do anything with the gate.

What gate?

[3Power]

How does this statement disprove the possibility that MitD successfully limited the strength of his attack? You can't prove something false by assuming that it is in fact false.

I have no intention of proving it false, that is not what I said. I said it was impossible to prove either way and thus irrelevant to the discussion.

Given that the knockback displayed here was from an attack dealing at most 1d2+1 points of damage, I think it's safe to say that the knockback effect is in fact completely independent of the damage the attack deals.

Well it can't be STR, that's 13 at most.

That's a belt of giant strength there, much more than 1d2+1.

No he's right. 3 STR + 1 level up bonus +6 magic item bonus + 2 animal companion bonus = STR score of 12(+1 bonus). Claw damage is 1d2, so total damage is 1d2 + 1. Though with power attack the +3 BAB from effective druid levels can be converted into +3 damage so 1d2 +4

[Gurgeh]

It is extremely unlikely that Mr Scruffy has the Power Attack feat given it requries a minimum strength of 13 (and I don't think it is reasonable to assume that he steals Belts of Giant Strength on the regular in order to just barely qualify).

[3Power]

It is extremely unlikely that Mr Scruffy has the Power Attack feat given it requries a minimum strength of 13 (and I don't think it is reasonable to assume that he steals Belts of Giant Strength on the regular in order to just barely qualify).

You are correct, nice catch.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's a belt of giant strength there, much more than 1d2+1.

I believe it's already factored in. A cat's regular attack is 1d2-4.

And even if there is some bonuses to being a ranger's pet/brain, +2 damage from an extra 4 strength (or +3 dmg if it's the +6 type of giant) is not "much more".

So yeah, in OotS it doesn't take much strength to send enemies flying backwards from a good hit. What it does take a lot of strength is for that enemy to break through a wall. Which we know because Roy (pre-belt) didn't manage to do so with Miko, but MitD did.

GW

[InvisibleBison]

I have no intention of proving it false, that is not what I said.

No, it is what you said over here. I then asked why you thought this was the case, and you replied by reasserting your belief that it is the case. So I'll ask again: Do you have any evidence or argument to support your assertion that "we know [MitD] failed to [hit lightly]" in the tower scene, or are you simply ignoring the possibility that you might be wrong?

[Tubercular Ox]

No, it is what you said over here. I then asked why you thought this was the case, and you replied by reasserting your belief that it is the case. So I'll ask again: Do you have any evidence or argument to support your assertion that "we know [MitD] failed to [hit lightly]" in the tower scene, or are you simply ignoring the possibility that you might be wrong?

It is literally a bigger attack than is possible under D&D rules for any monster under any conditions. If we assume that it is the Monster in the Dark successfully hitting lightly, how hard could the Monster in the Dark hit if it is not hitting lightly? Two mountain ranges?

If Rich had originally drawn the comic with Miko passing over two mountain ranges, nothing changes about the hitting lightly argument and from it we can conclude that two maintain ranges is the lightest the Monster in the Dark can hit.

The hitting lightly argument never changes no matter how big a hit Rich draws. Therefore the hitting lightly argument makes it impossible for Rich to draw the Monster in the Dark failing to hit lightly.

The hitting lightly argument is unfalsifiable.

[Crusher]

No, it is what you said over here. I then asked why you thought this was the case, and you replied by reasserting your belief that it is the case. So I'll ask again: Do you have any evidence or argument to support your assertion that "we know [MitD] failed to [hit lightly]" in the tower scene, or are you simply ignoring the possibility that you might be wrong?

Yeah, I find myself siding with 3Power on this point. To be clear, I don't have specific evidence MitD failed to hit lightly, just the math of how we've calculated his STR and thinking about what the alternatives mean.

Is knocking a paladin through a stonewall and hundreds (maybe?) of feet through the air *really* the softest MitD can hit? I mean, really? At risk of repeating myself, I get that the damage from a STR bonus is a flat amount and there don't appear to be rules for doing reduced damage (other than non-lethal), but the 30 STR number was calculated assuming a full-effort hit using a min-maxed build.

If you think MitD was successfully hitting as lightly as he can in that scene, you're either arguing his STR is much higher than 30, probably more like 50-60+. OR you're arguing his "hits" must be gigantically hard relative to anything else he does with his STR (he didn't accidentally annihilate the rope when he pulled on it) for some reason.

[brian 333]

Here is an analogy:

Bighorns can bump heads for fun, as young rams do, or they can get serious and really bash each other. But even with a young ram just playing, do you think a human butting heads with a bighorn is likely to end well for the human?

The lightest a bighorn can hit in play is probably fatal to a human. Does that mean the bighorn failed to hit lightly?

[Tubercular Ox]

Alternate take:

Observe that the big hit is bigger than the biggest possible hit from the strongest possible monster under optimal conditions.

Assume that the big hit is the Monster in the Dark's lightest possible hit.

Then the Monster in the Dark's biggest possible hit does not hit as hard as its lightest possible hit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, I find myself siding with 3Power on this point. To be clear, I don't have specific evidence MitD failed to hit lightly, just the math of how we've calculated his STR and thinking about what the alternatives mean.

First off: disclaimer. I don't read 3power's posts, so I have no idea who-said-what; that's not the point of this post. The point is to restate old arguments.

First, Nerdanel's numbers are what they are, nothing more, nothing less. Which, amongst other things, means they are not in any way "official". The conclusion I draw from them is not "this is mathematically what happened". What I draw from them is "what happened in the tower is outside the D&D RAW". I.e. that we are firmly in OotS RPG rules land*. Others may draw different conclusions from this. But what cannot be concluded is "MitD must have this build" because as you point out, that's a min/max build expending maximum effort, which is, at least as far as I am concerned, the exact opposite of what canon shows, thus my conclusion from it.

If you think MitD was successfully hitting as lightly as he can in that scene, you're either arguing his STR is much higher than 30, probably more like 50-60+. OR you're arguing his "hits" must be gigantically hard relative to anything else he does with his STR (he didn't accidentally annihilate the rope when he pulled on it) for some reason.

Yes, both of those have indeed been two main argumentative thrusts for ages, and in fact go hand in hand. Protean for example leans on "yeah, he's got strength 53, the lightest he can hit is still over twice as strong as the hardest a base human can hit". And yeah, MitD does have issues with pulling on things - he has said as much. And thus the argument goes that he finds it harder to pull than push because of his giant strength. Because of it, the argument goes, pulling requires him to be very careful since when not done carefully he risks fraying/snapping/bending ropes, handles, etc. Whereas pushing is easy for Strong!MitD because things he pushes presumably move easily enough for him. Even if they were really heavy. Even if they were, say, bolted to the ground beforehand, not that he noticed. But crucially, he is still capable of self-control that he can compensate and NOT snap the rope when he puts his mind to it (while still breaking toys and phylacteries when he is NOT paying full attention because he is instead playing with them as a child would).

So the full argument goes "he did try to hit lightly. And he succeeded, by the standards of his species. But the issue is that by the standard of his species, hitting lightly still causes horses to fly through walls.".

The alternative is that he is so incapable of self control that even though he tried to hit lightly, he in fact failed to do so and hit with maximum strength. But if he is so lacking in self-control, then the rope is a problem. Because the rope should snap when he uses it, if he really pulls with his full strength when he is merely trying to move the curtains. MitD should be constantly breaking things if he really had that poor self-control. And yet he is not. He does handle delicate things and he doesn't break them all the time. I thus find "MitD can't control his strength at all" unpersuasive. Not quite as much as "MitD deliberately used powers to hit even harder than he can by base", mind you.

In conclusion, as far as I am concerned, we can see that MitD has self-control when it comes to handling of "delicate" things (by his standards of man of steel, world of cardboard), which means he really does have megaton punches even when he dials them all the way down. See also "Dragon Z gang trying to enter the martial arts tournament without breaking the strength machine (except Vegeta)". ETA: Or indeed brian 333's bighorn example.

Grey Wolf

*

As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise

[b_jonas]

If you think MitD was successfully hitting as lightly as he can in that scene, you're either arguing his STR is much higher than 30, probably more like 50-60+.

We all know that his strength is probably 50, because 30 strength isn't enough to hit Miko and his horse through the stone wall. 30 is the minimum strength that we set as a lower limit for the FBS section so that it doesn't seem so empty an unwelcoming. Of course if you find a monster who has some oddly specific ability that helps him hit creatures through walls then the strength can be lower, but such candidates seem to be rare.

[Metastachydium]

We all know that his strength is probably 50, because 30 strength isn't enough to hit Miko and his horse through the stone wall. 30 is the minimum strength that we set as a lower limit for the FBS section so that it doesn't seem so empty an unwelcoming. Of course if you find a monster who has some oddly specific ability that helps him hit creatures through walls then the strength can be lower, but such candidates seem to be rare.

Also note that STR 30 is the minimum value rewuired to punch through 1 inch of masonry, which is certainly less than the thickness of a defensive structure's wall should be.

Actually that made me realize something. Every creature has access to unarmed strike, so if the protean really wanted to hit as lightly as possible, he would do an off hand unarmed strike which would be 1d4 +10. Combine that with at-will shrinking, and the protean is now doing 1+6 damage.

Huh. Yes, that really is a fairly good argument against a shapechanger capable of altering its size and developing attack forms other than its standard fare at a moment's notice.

[Emberlily]

trying to base this conclusively on [the total damage value of the attack] really doesn't seem to be very consistent with what we see, though. the aforementioned scene with scruffy launching a dog with an attack that wouldn't kill a 1st level fighter (assuming scruffy is doing the "all the 'separate attacks' are bundled into one big hit in the fiction of the comic" thing, like with roy vs miko. if it's just one attack it wouldn't even disable a 1st level commoner!) is one thing. there's also the fact that neither miko nor windstriker show those nearly-ubiquitous visible-signs-of-injury from the hit. that makes whether it did any notable damage at all very ambiguous (windstriker is drinking potions afterwards, yes, but we don't see their condition after taking the fall damage but before healing up). because being launched by attacks seems to be a way of simply showing that someone is particularly beefy (oots has run on cartoon physics before! see that one xykon decoy vs vaarsuvius and the general), it very well could have been 1+6 damage just as much as it could've been 1+25 or such. I just don't see trying to calculate either a high or low end based on damage values alone is useful (except perhaps "it did less damage than would have killed miko or windstriker instantly", I suppose)

[Tubercular Ox]

Huh. Yes, that really is a fairly good argument against a shapechanger capable of altering its size and developing attack forms other than its standard fare at a moment's notice.

Maybe it's too busy manifesting a form with two fixed eyes to manifest as anything smaller than it is. 'Although, it did manifest its eyes at the same time as carrying O-Chul. And it held to its eyes while manifesting the Umbral Blot. So maybe it can manifest specialized limbs while maintaining its eyes.

[Keltest]

trying to base this conclusively on [the total damage value of the attack] really doesn't seem to be very consistent with what we see, though. the aforementioned scene with scruffy launching a dog with an attack that wouldn't kill a 1st level fighter (assuming scruffy is doing the "all the 'separate attacks' are bundled into one big hit in the fiction of the comic" thing, like with roy vs miko. if it's just one attack it wouldn't even disable a 1st level commoner!) is one thing. there's also the fact that neither miko nor windstriker show those nearly-ubiquitous visible-signs-of-injury from the hit. that makes whether it did any notable damage at all very ambiguous (windstriker is drinking potions afterwards, yes, but we don't see their condition after taking the fall damage but before healing up). because being launched by attacks seems to be a way of simply showing that someone is particularly beefy (oots has run on cartoon physics before! see that one xykon decoy vs vaarsuvius and the general), it very well could have been 1+6 damage just as much as it could've been 1+25 or such. I just don't see trying to calculate either a high or low end based on damage values alone is useful (except perhaps "it did less damage than would have killed miko or windstriker instantly", I suppose)

I agree with the logic, but much like the earthquake ability, its been a tough time finding any ability that can send someone flying without maiming them in the process.

[Metastachydium]

Maybe it's too busy manifesting a form with two fixed eyes to manifest as anything smaller than it is. 'Although, it did manifest its eyes at the same time as carrying O-Chul. And it held to its eyes while manifesting the Umbral Blot. So maybe it can manifest specialized limbs while maintaining its eyes.

Oh, right. And it must maintain its general shape and size! And the limb it holds the umbrella with! Truly, being an ever-shifting tide of flesh that can't ever shift at all must be a real burden.

[3Power]

No, it is what you said over here. I then asked why you thought this was the case, and you replied by reasserting your belief that it is the case. So I'll ask again: Do you have any evidence or argument to support your assertion that "we know [MitD] failed to [hit lightly]" in the tower scene, or are you simply ignoring the possibility that you might be wrong?

Do you not consider statements from the author to be evidence? I don't understand what the disconnect is here.
I will requote the relevant statement with the important part highlighted.

I was able to explore the idea that the monster itself isn’t really aware of all of its capabilities. In #374, it tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails.

Here is an analogy:

Bighorns can bump heads for fun, as young rams do, or they can get serious and really bash each other. But even with a young ram just playing, do you think a human butting heads with a bighorn is likely to end well for the human?

The lightest a bighorn can hit in play is probably fatal to a human. Does that mean the bighorn failed to hit lightly?

The answer depends on semantics and relativity. But I would assume your answer is no, which means that because Rich says he did fail, this analogy does not apply to the scenario, and it's more accurately a launching garbage into space scenario.

We all know that his strength is probably 50, because 30 strength isn't enough to hit Miko and his horse through the stone wall.

Also note that STR 30 is the minimum value rewuired to punch through 1 inch of masonry, which is certainly less than the thickness of a defensive structure's wall should be.

Thog knocks Roy through a stone floor with an estimated 28 STR. and damages a number of considerably thicker walls and pillars in the same sequence.

I agree with the logic, but much like the earthquake ability, its been a tough time finding any ability that can send someone flying without maiming them in the process.

Uh... not really. Telekinesis still exists. People just don't like to accept that OOTS RPG rules might apply to weight limits.

[hroþila]

I just think a rules-based (as opposed to vibes-based) approach to the tower scene is futile. We need to consult Wile E. Coyote rather than Sir Isaac Newton

[Metastachydium]

Thog knocks Roy through a stone floor with an estimated 28 STR. and damages a number of considerably thicker walls and pillars in the same sequence.

I mean, all that tells us is STR 30 is an arbitrary figure.

I just think a rules-based (as opposed to vibes-based) approach to the tower scene is futile. We need to consult Wile E. Coyote rather than Sir Isaac Newton

Stop encouraging the Dragon Mod!

[3Power]

I mean, all that tells us is STR 30 is an arbitrary figure.

Always has been.

I just think a rules-based (as opposed to vibes-based) approach to the tower scene is futile. We need to consult Wile E. Coyote rather than Sir Isaac Newton

Unfortunately the FBS still has 30 STR listed, and doesn't account for the possibility of OOTS RPG methods of shrinking so until everyone agrees to get rid of that criteria it will continue to be discussed.

[Tubercular Ox]

I’d like to propose that the Monster in the Dark is a Therblewurkersaurus. A Therblewurkersaurus is just like a Protean, except it doesn’t have any Protean abilities that would embarrass it.

It can’t change its size, so it’s stuck at super strength for the big hit.
It doesn’t change shape against its will, so it can have fixed eyes, mouth, and other appendages.
It doesn’t have +59 Bluff, so it can struggle to Bluff Xykon away from Girard’s Gate
It doesn’t have dimension door, ethereal jaunt, or knock, so it’s helpless to acquire the steak in the jungle scene.
It doesn’t have 39 SR, Blinding Speed, and Destabilize Form, and it can’t manifest Pounce, so it can’t go 100ft, pounce for a full attack, hit with 5 slam attacks, and literally liquefy Redcloak in a single round, with Redcloak not being able to pierce its SR with any of his spells, which explains why Redcloak is not frightened of it.
Also, it doesn’t have +32 Will save to go with that 39 SR, so Xykon can land a mid-level mind-affecting spell on it without comment.
Also also, because it doesn’t have Destabilize Form, Xykon has to order it to swallow Redcloak whole instead of just liquefying him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Every creature has access to unarmed strike, so if the protean really wanted to hit as lightly as possible, he would do an off hand unarmed strike which would be 1d4 +10. Combine that with at-will shrinking, and the protean is now doing 1+6 damage.

Huh. Yes, that really is a fairly good argument against a shapechanger capable of altering its size and developing attack forms other than its standard fare at a moment's notice.

Can someone break down for me why a shapechanger in general, and a protean in particular, would go from +21 damage on their attack to 1+6 because of changing size? 'Cause I don't see a reference to strength changing with size, only the attack bonus (which goes up, presumably because every target is now much bigger, from their new perspective). And the protean explicitly says that he retains its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage when using other shapes' attack types. I tried to figure it out myself but I got lost in the interaction between natural weapons, unarmed strikes and off-hand attacks.

Grey Wolf

[InvisibleBison]

Do you not consider statements from the author to be evidence? I don't understand what the disconnect is here.
I will requote the relevant statement with the important part highlighted.

The disconnect is that we interpret that statement differently. As I see it, the Giant is saying that MitD tried to hit lightly in absolute terms, ie only dealing minimal damage or dealing no damage at all, and failed to do so because he is so enormously strong. This doesn't contradict the idea that MitD did still hit as lightly as it was possible for him to do.

Can someone break down for me why a shapechanger in general, and a protean in particular, would go from +21 damage on their attack to 1+6 because of changing size? 'Cause I don't see a reference to strength changing with size, only the attack bonus (which goes up, presumably because every target is now much bigger, from their new perspective). And the protean explicitly says that he retains its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage when using other shapes' attack types. I tried to figure it out myself but I got lost in the interaction between natural weapons, unarmed strikes and off-hand attacks.

Grey Wolf

Some people think the rules for adjusting monsters' physical ability scores when they increase in size due to gaining additional racial hit dice are actually general rules for how to adjust creatures' physical scores whenever they change size. Under this reasoning (which I don't think is correct), a protean that assumed a Fine size shape would decrease its Strength score to 35. It would then manifest a natural weapon that did a base of 1 point of damage (not hard to do when you're Fine). If it could also somehow use that weapon as a secondary attack (which can sometimes occur for creatures that only have one attack, such as a camel or a work horse), it would only add half of its Strength modifier to the damage.

[Metastachydium]

Can someone break down for me why a shapechanger in general, and a protean in particular, would go from +21 damage on their attack to 1+6 because of changing size? 'Cause I don't see a reference to strength changing with size, only the attack bonus (which goes up, presumably because every target is now much bigger, from their new perspective). And the protean explicitly says that he retains its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage when using other shapes' attack types. I tried to figure it out myself but I got lost in the interaction between natural weapons, unarmed strikes and off-hand attacks.

Grey Wolf

Some people think the rules for adjusting monsters' physical ability scores when they increase in size due to gaining additional racial hit dice are actually general rules for how to adjust creatures' physical scores whenever they change size. Under this reasoning (which I don't think is correct),

A fair assumption, of course, given that while changing size tends to correlate with changes to Strength, those values are not neccessarily taken into account (v. Enlarge/Reduce Person).

It would then manifest a natural weapon that did a base of 1 point of damage (not hard to do when you're Fine).

Correct.

If it could also somehow use that weapon as a secondary attack (which can sometimes occur for creatures that only have one attack, such as a camel or a work horse), it would only add half of its Strength modifier to the damage.

Correct again, and it's even easy to pull if one wants to pull it. All the Protean would have to do was ditch all primary attacks other than its base slams, use those to hit something other than Miko and then use a weak, freshly manifested natural attack to hit Miko with. (Also, at any rate, while a creature's Strength doesn't neccessarily fluctuate in patterns following the Improving Monsters table, decreasing size means decreasing base damage for attacks, meaning that the primary slams would have 1d2+STR).

[EDIT]In short, yes, a Protean should be able to choose to hit for 1+11 damage, a marked and real decrease from its base values.[/EDIT]

Also, there's the sticking point that if MitD could willingly change its size and so minimize the damage he deals, and did do so, we should have been able to observe the massive change in size.