MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Keltest]

Okay, I'm morbidly curious: how could this possibly work unless the reveal is a one-page gag that gets the MitD being permanently disappeared by Mr Jones and Mr Rodriguez?

I believe that falls under the "not our problem to figure out" category by way of not making the mods do more work.

Specifically, the thread rules, section 4A, which has too many nested quotes for me to want to quote tonight.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, I'm morbidly curious: how could this possibly work unless the reveal is a one-page gag that gets the MitD being permanently disappeared by Mr Jones and Mr Rodriguez?

... You have answered yourself? It'd be a way he wouldn't dominate the narrative post-reveal, if nothing else.

(and yeah, please please PLEASE don't talk about the legal issues here)

GW

[Peelee]

Okay, I'm morbidly curious: how could this possibly work unless the reveal is a one-page gag that gets the MitD being permanently disappeared by Mr Jones and Mr Rodriguez?

Arguably pretty easily.

not making the mods do more work.

Also this. I like being having less work for our kind and benevolent mods.

[Keltest]

Arguably pretty easily.

Also this. I like being having less work for our kind and benevolent mods.

On the other hand, it would be funny to see the Roland Revenge counter in your sig go up...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have every confidence that even after the reveal, this thread will continue on.

A thread about MitD, and whether or not he truly fits the clues, will undoubtedly exist following the reveal. It might even highjack this thread. But this thread, that exists to collect & compile the collective conclusions (bonus alliteration!) will end the moment the reveal happens, pretty much by definition. Assuming I'm still around, my plan is to find out who was the first to propose the species (assuming someone did), and congratulate them, despite the fact that, most likely, they left the forums ages ago. Really looking forward to it, when all's said and done.

GW

[Crusher]

Long time reader and lurker, made this account after getting lost in the rabbit hole of this thread . Here to add my vote for the Protean.

So noted!

I vote for MitD XX: Lurkers, I'm So Sorry.

I'm a fan!

[Gurgeh]

I believe that falls under the "not our problem to figure out" category by way of not making the mods do more work.

Specifically, the thread rules, section 4A, which has too many nested quotes for me to want to quote tonight.

Apologies to all for disregarding this - I can absolutely understand why the rule is there.

[Neponde]

I vote for MitD XX: Lurkers, I'm So Sorry.

I know it's far too early to officially vote, but this is great.

(As a longtime lurker, and twice a year poster.)

[b_jonas]

But this thread, that exists to collect & compile the collective conclusions (bonus alliteration!) will end the moment the reveal happens, pretty much by definition.

Are you suggesting that the one section of the first posts that I'm maintaining will outlive everything you've done for this thread? :-P

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Are you suggesting that the one section of the first posts that I'm maintaining will outlive everything you've done for this thread? :-P

I certainly hope so; it'll certainly make it easier to revisit all his scenes once we know his species to see how he fit the clues.

GW

[Tubercular Ox]

It doesn't. It's a block of text. It can't hold itself to any standards. You can, and you cam choose whatever standard you want. But if you want others to agree with you then you have to prepare for the possibility people may not and may criticize your standard.

Dude, there's no competition here. It's not a game of "whatever most people think will determine what it is". The only prize is bragging rights. Hell, I'd be slightly happier if it turns out to be Wile E. Coyote because I'd be the only one to get to say "BOOYAH!"

This is also a reason why I've tried to stop advocating or arguing against creatures. Because it does not matter at all to me what other people guess. It only matters to me what I guess. Others may feel differently, others may want to justify their guess as much as possible or convince as many people as they can. But that doesn't make it a competition. There's no competing here except in your own mind. If you have it be a competition foe yourself, then cool, you do you, but don't expect others to be obligated to answer your own questions about how to make other monsters compete. Even if others decide to help, it might not be what you want.

This and other comments make me feel like you are asking me to give up both negotiating what is acceptable in advance and asking others to do again things they've done before.

[Peelee]

This and other comments make me feel like you are asking me to give up both negotiating what is acceptable in advance and asking others to do again things they've done before.

Look dude, I'm just telling you why i think your argument is bad. But if you think it's good, feel free to ask for a vote. See how many people agree. But I'm not negotiating anything. If you want negotiate whatever, cool, feel free to ignore me because i am not doing that. I generally don't even vote for anything except thread names.

[Tubercular Ox]

Look dude, I'm just telling you why i think your argument is bad.

It sounds like you want me to bring out another monster to show that what I'm asking for are achievable goals. Is that right?

[Lintecarka]

Crazy theory time: it is actually Durokan. This will ensure a satisfying reveal, especially while Serini is with the OotS.

There are some arguments against this of course. Durokan is dead, his soul is trapped, his goals are diametrically opposed to team evil, he most definitely knows about the gates and he is not a repulsive looking monster one would expect to devour goblins.

But most of this can easily be fixed by applying the Worm That Walks template, which can randomly apply itself to any dead character (even if it is exceedingly rare). So Durokan being dead is not a problem, but actually a requirement.

A Worm That Walks obtains a +20 bonus to AC, explaining the durability shown by the MitD. As a high level spellcaster it could use any spell to enhance it further. High level spells like Wish also easily explain the escape scene and may explain the tower scene without the need for extraordinary natural strength.
Despite consisting of vermin it does not gain immunity to mind-affecting effects (its an Aberration). The Engulf special attack is perfectly suited for devouring Redcloak if needed.

The template mentions that a Worm That Walks rarely speaks, explaining the hunters surprise when the MitD did. A creature consisting of a bunch of slithering worms definitely explains the circus reaction. The template is sufficiently rare that many will have never heard about it, but some might.

A Worm That Walks is often depicted as a vaguely humanoid figure with glowing eyes, which would allow the MitD to hold an umbrella or fit into a box. Faerun has a 30 feet tall Worm That Walks called Kyuss, giving a possible explanation why some characters expect the MitD to keep growing. The strong vermin theme of the Worm That Walks template might also cause the demon cockroaches to hang around.

Of course this doesn't explain why Durokan would be part of team evil. But his soul being trapped might be the reason his true personality could not be restored, causing the MitD to develop its child-like behavior instead and becoming very impressionable. It is not unreasonable that Durokan took precautions to make sure after his death nobody could obtain any information about the gates using Speak with Dead or similar spells on his corpse. This might be the reason the MitD seems unable to remember anything about the gates, even the fact it observed one moments ago.



So do I think it is actually Durokan with the Worm That Walks template? No. While it is an existing template and not something Rich made up, there are some assumption made that are not 100% covered by the rules and the MitD specifically talks about having a father larger than itself. It was still fun seeing how many boxes this theory would check and I kind of like the idea of using a templated existing character with some relevance to the plot to ensure the reveal is satisfying for everyone.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Crazy theory time: it is actually Durokan. This will ensure a satisfying reveal, especially while Serini is with the OotS.

There are some arguments against this of course. Durokan is dead, his soul is trapped, his goals are diametrically opposed to team evil, he most definitely knows about the gates and he is not a repulsive looking monster one would expect to devour goblins.

But most of this can easily be fixed by applying the Worm That Walks template, which can randomly apply itself to any dead character (even if it is exceedingly rare). So Durokan being dead is not a problem, but actually a requirement.

Why Dorukan? Sounds to me like you can slot whatever other powerful magician you'd care to name into that template and end up in the exact same place? That way you avoid all the issues with Dorukan's soul being trapped, and little details like MitD having been in the circus while Dorukan was alive and well.

We have had the Worm that Walks proposed before, but I remember not being sure of where to put it; it's more of a 2d entry, but it's not there (or anywhere else, AFAICT), so that's my bad.

GW

[mashlagoo1982]

I vote for MitD XX: Lurkers, I'm So Sorry.

When it is time, I will vote for this simply because I feel it conveys the same feeling as the Shojo quote. Even though the Shojo quote is better because Shojo is awesome.

Away from that topic and in an effort to try and move the topic away from the circular protean topic... I would like to propose Turaglas for the FBS list.

There is a link to the analysis in my signature.

As for meeting the STR requirement, maybe overrun or bullrush would allow it to qualify in its Turagathshnee Form? If it used bullrush, it would receive a +4 to STR which would increase its stat to 32 and it is an attack action that states to trade damage to push an opponent away.

[Tzardok]

A Worm That Walks is often depicted as a vaguely humanoid figure with glowing eyes, which would allow the MitD to hold an umbrella or fit into a box. Faerun has a 30 feet tall Worm That Walks called Kyuss, giving a possible explanation why some characters expect the MitD to keep growing.

Kyuss is originally a Greyhawk character, not a Forgotten Realms character.

Also, your theory has the slight problem that the MitD was caught, sold to the circus and recruited at a point of time when Dorukan was still alive, so you have to add a time travel plot at least.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When it is time, I will vote for this simply because I feel it conveys the same feeling as the Shojo quote. Even though the Shojo quote is better because Shojo is awesome.

Away from that topic and in an effort to try and move the topic away from the circular protean topic... I would like to propose Turaglas for the FBS list.

There is a link to the analysis in my signature.

As for meeting the STR requirement, maybe overrun or bullrush would allow it to qualify in its Turagathshnee Form? If it used bullrush, it would receive a +4 to STR which would increase its stat to 32 and it is an attack action that states to trade damage to push an opponent away.

MitD is not 18 feet tall, and there is no "child version of Turagathshnee Form" for Turaglas to adopt. Furthermore, he cannot be confused with "one of those" when he is significantly taller than the regular Turagathshnee. Strength threshold is based on the strength, not on anything the creature can do to increase it, on the basis that MitD was trying to hit lightly, so why would he bull rush/cast a spell to gain strength/etc. The lore states that Turaglas can only manifest in Turagathshnee Form for a few minutes.

GW

[InvisibleBison]

I would like to propose Turaglas for the FBS list.

There is a link to the analysis in my signature.

As for meeting the STR requirement, maybe overrun or bullrush would allow it to qualify in its Turagathshnee Form? If it used bullrush, it would receive a +4 to STR which would increase its stat to 32 and it is an attack action that states to trade damage to push an opponent away.

I'll vote against Turaglas for the FBS list, as I feel it doesn't have an adequate explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.

Also, you seem to be misunderstanding the bull rush rules. Creatures don't get a bonus to their Strength score when performing a bull rush. Rather, they get a bonus to the Strength check they make to determine the results of the bull rush if they are larger than Medium.

[Metastachydium]

Really? You find it baffling? I thought my reasoning was pretty clear. You even quoted it yourself:

How is that baffling? As I've said before, would you be baffled that people thought it was a Glabrezu even though MitD never explicitly said "Wow, I don't know how I made Mr. Stiffly and his elf friend disappear, but apparently I can only do it once a month!"?

I do not think Rich is going to give us clues that are a dead giveaway, and shapeshifting is so relatively limited-- particularly in the "constantly boiling form" of the Protean, and particularly among creatures in the FBS list-- that any such hint would have been a slam-dunk giveaway.

Or another way to phrase the question from the other side would be: What species has a characteristic as distinctive as a Protean's "constantly boiling form" that MitD has shown? I mean, if he hasn't done anything that distinctive for a species, then he can't be that species, right? I think this line of reasoning will lead you to rule out every single monster species.

Yes, it is baffling to me. Because, again, this does not make skepticism regarding the Protean Case rest on a poor basis. This makes the Protean a poor fit. Why? Simple:
1. this is either a guessing game, in which case making sure a shapeshifter never engages in shapeshifting, lest it be recognized as a shapeshifter is in poor form, insofar as it is essentially trolling: the one defining quality of the creature (the rest is just numbers, mostly, and while those are important in their own way, a lot of things have the raw numbers) is handwaved away unless it is convenient to happen, and even then, it is presented as it if weren't happening;¹ or

2. this is not a guessing game, in which case, it doesn't matter if a reader can splatbook-trawl themself into finding the one fitting creature with only a minimal margin of error left in play, so far as the in-unverse implications are not impacted by that.

This is the big issue of the Protean Case, by the way. It wants not to have its cake and eat it, but to throw it into an Umpbral Blot and still preserve it for eternity. The eye thing, even as the "explanations for it" amount to
a. "it's not technically impossible" (a Dao-class argument, if you ask me: it is not technically impossible, just as the Dao technically meets FBS criteria, even if it doesn't make sense as MitD at all);
b. "it's a convention (the application of which is entirely unneccessary)" (a shapeshifter's tell is not needed at all for the Monster, because we never see him, but always see the darkness around him as well as the umbrella);
c. "eyes are the main way to express emotions" (which is true regardless of their shape, size, colour and position);
d. "he changed them once: they were »the Evil sort« at first" (which is simply false, and has always been false, because that's not an inherent quality of eyes in the art style);
and the like, is ultimately just symptomatic of that. We can look, so to say past them, inasmuch as the real issue is not that they are always there, unchanged, but what it implies.

You want ot have the cake and eat it.
1. The Monster doesn't understand his powers;
2. so all he can do is actively and deliberately suppress them;
3. unless he gets a poorly defined "vibe" to suddenly just partial-turn into an Umbral Blot;
which is an issue, because it
4. completely undermines the Circus scene. If the Monster is not an ever-boiling tide of flesh, the Protean is not a uniquely good fit there;
6. and presents an issue for the Tower scene (he can just partial-transform into an Umbral Blot, but cannot develop a smaller-sized attack form for hitting lighter? Really?)
5. If he is, the constant features become an issue.

This is a massive headscratcher.

So if "technically possible" is good enough for you, why don't we make simpler assumptions that are likewise "technically possible" and don't need contrived explanations external to the comic? Think of the White Slaad. It's a very good fit. It has the numbers. The size. The looks (including the yellow eyes). The special abilities it takes.

The one big issue with it is the life cycle and the father-thing. But…
a. Elves in the Stickverse literally spend decades in diapers;
b. Slaadi implanting people are literally framed as parenthood;
c. and the "father" of a Green Slaad a White evolves from is, by that token either a Red or a Blue, which can both advance up into Huge size.

---

¹Imagine, if you will, that the MitD doesn't exist. The mystery that is him is, in this alternate universe, Sunny's species. Sunny acts as the Creature Clad in Shaows (or CCiD) for most of the story, depicted just as MitD is, except with two green eyes. When Sunny is revealed as a Beholder, the explanation is "well, they kept the central eye closed at all times except in this One Scene, and the other eyes just faced in another direction and were thus invisible to the reader; also, they didn't float because they didn't ever feel like flying".

That might strike you as a brilliant idea. It doesn't strike me as a brillinat idea.

[mashlagoo1982]

MitD is not 18 feet tall, and there is no "child version of Turagathshnee Form" for Turaglas to adopt. Furthermore, he cannot be confused with "one of those" when he is significantly taller than the regular Turagathshnee. Strength threshold is based on the strength, not on anything the creature can do to increase it, on the basis that MitD was trying to hit lightly, so why would he bull rush/cast a spell to gain strength/etc. The lore states that Turaglas can only manifest in Turagathshnee Form for a few minutes.

GW

Was MitD stated outright to be a child? I thought that was only assumed based on what we think we know.

It is stated to be small by some people and is expect to grow. I believe these were Redcloak, Xykon and others whom I surmise know Turaglas in its Turagathshnee Form is small when compared to its True Form.

In its Turagathshnee Form, it could be mistaken for "one of those" as just a big turagathshnee. Seriously, what else would the hunters think it is? I would not think an overly large version of something I already know to be something except a larger version of this thing I know (Along the lines of; "Oh sh*t! I didn't know they get that big"). I would certainly NOT guess it is a demon prince where its lore was systemically destroyed by other demon princes.

If Turaglas was trying to select an attack that would deal no direct damage, it may select something like bullrush which states outright it pushes targets in lieu of dealing damage.

I don't think the official source gives anything by vague guidelines as to how long Turaglas can remain manifest. It seems intentionally vague so the GM can have it last as long as they want to fit their story.

Also, you seem to be misunderstanding the bull rush rules. Creatures don't get a bonus to their Strength score when performing a bull rush. Rather, they get a bonus to the Strength check they make to determine the results of the bull rush if they are larger than Medium.

Appreciate the clarification. I do not know how the rules for bull rush work. I was guessing. Maybe you could explain what the result of a creature with 28 STR and +4 to its check may look like?

Edit: Also, how does something get on the list? Do people voting for it influence the decision? Is there a core group of posters that make that decision?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Was MitD stated outright to be a child? I thought that was only assumed based on what we think we know.

The Turaglas Turagathshnee Form is 18 feet tall. MitD is not 18 feet tall. The Turaglas has no other smaller form that is MitD size, child or otherwise.

I don't think the official source gives anything by vague guidelines as to how long Turaglas can remain manifest. It seems intentionally vague so the GM can have it last as long as they want to fit their story.

I gave you the exact quote last thread, but here it is again:

"Turaglas has two forms. His smaller form is an abnormally large turagathshnee and can be described as listed for that creature, except that he stands about 18 feet tall. [...] Although he cannot yet escape his prison in his true Form, a summoning ritual that invokes him by name allows him to manifest in turagathshnee form for several minutes." (Dragon Magazine 312) (emphasis mine)

Grey Wolf

[InvisibleBison]

Appreciate the clarification. I do not know how the rules for bull rush work. I was guessing. Maybe you could explain what the result of a creature with 28 STR and +4 to its check may look like?

To resolve a bull rush you make opposed Strength checks. For a creature with 28 Strength, and thus a +9 Strength modifier, that would be 1d20+9. If they had a +4 bonus to their check, they would instead roll 1d20+13.

[mashlagoo1982]

The Turaglas Turagathshnee Form is 18 feet tall. MitD is not 18 feet tall. The Turaglas has no other smaller form that is MitD size, child or otherwise.


I gave you the exact quote last thread, but here it is again:

"Turaglas has two forms. His smaller form is an abnormally large turagathshnee and can be described as listed for that creature, except that he stands about 18 feet tall. [...] Although he cannot yet escape his prison in his true Form, a summoning ritual that invokes him by name allows him to manifest in turagathshnee form for several minutes." (Dragon Magazine 312) (emphasis mine)

Grey Wolf

Do we know MitD is not 18 feet tall?

Also, a turagathshnee is very gangly. If it is sitting, it could easily be less than half that height.

I saw that before. How long is "several minutes"... 5, 10, 60?

More to the point, there is no round/caster level or something similar, it is vague.

I understand that several minutes is a far cry from the months it has been in story. But without a detailed rule, it remains vague and open to DM interpretation.

Edit: Once they learned about Turaglas, could Xykon or Redcloak summon it again as desired?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Do we know MitD is not 18 feet tall?

Yes, of course we know MitD is not 18 feet tall. A frost giant is 15 feet tall. MitD is not bigger than a frost giant.

Also, a turagathshnee is very gangly. If it is sitting, it could easily be less than half that height.

It cannot move around while sitting. And MitD is also not 9 feet tall regardless.

I saw that before. How long is "several minutes"... 5, 10, 60?

Whatever "several" you want, it's not years. And FTR, I'd say "several" is definitely less than 60. There is "DM interpretation" and there is "several could mean 15 million minutes". The latter is definitely ridiculously implausible.

GW

[mashlagoo1982]

Yes, of course we know MitD is not 18 feet tall. A frost giant is 15 feet tall. MitD is not bigger than a frost giant.


It cannot move around while sitting. And MitD is also not 9 feet tall regardless.


Whatever "several" you want, it's not years. And FTR, I'd say "several" is definitely less than 60. There is "DM interpretation" and there is "several could mean 15 million minutes". The latter is definitely ridiculously implausible.

GW

I edited my previous post before seeing the response.

Edit from above: Once they learned about Turaglas, could Xykon or Redcloak summon it again as desired? So, it is summoned and dismissed off panel. That would get around the limitation of minutes.

Also, how do we know from that comic that MitD is no bigger than a frost giant? What am I missing?

To resolve a bull rush you make opposed Strength checks. For a creature with 28 Strength, and thus a +9 Strength modifier, that would be 1d20+9. If they had a +4 bonus to their check, they would instead roll 1d20+13.

1d20+13... isn't that the same as a STR check of a creature with a STR of 36-37? Assuming there are no further modifications.

Edit: Corrected STR. I was wrong.

[Tzardok]

I think if The Giant was willing to include canonical demon lords (and that's what Turaglas is, in the end), he would have done so when making the IFCC. There is no reason to invent a demon lord called Cedrik as one of the directors and have him only vaguely allude to unnamed superiors if one could chose Velkin or Eblis or whatever the Nine Hells I know else instead.
If he didn't thrawl through lists of minor demon lords for that, why should he do so for the MitD?

[mashlagoo1982]

I think if The Giant was willing to include canonical demon lords (and that's what Turaglas is, in the end), he would have done so when making the IFCC. There is no reason to invent a demon lord called Cedrik as one of the directors and have him only vaguely allude to unnamed superiors if one could chose Velkin or Eblis or whatever the Nine Hells I know else instead.
If he didn't thrawl through lists of minor demon lords for that, why should he do so for the MitD?

Pretty sure all the demons The Giant has shown were middle management level. Nothing in the books really qualifies for that role. The named demons princes in the books would be CEOs or board directors.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Edit from above: Once they learned about Turaglas, could Xykon or Redcloak summon it again as desired? So, it is summoned and dismissed off panel. That would get around the limitation of minutes.

Not with the canon we have, no. Like, you are so past the plausibility horizon that I don't feel it is in my best interest to continue this conversation. Someone else can pick it up if they wish and show you how the canon fails to support "they are resummoning MitD every few minutes". My point stands: I do not feel it is even close to the FBS minimums to warrant inclusion.

GW

[mashlagoo1982]

Not with the canon we have, no. Like, you are so past the plausibility horizon that I don't feel it is in my best interest to continue this conversation. Someone else can pick it up if they wish and show you how the canon fails to support "they are resummoning MitD every few minutes". My point stands: I do not feel it is even close to the FBS minimums to warrant inclusion.

GW

My problem with this thread. Where does this come from? I do not mean this as a flame.

Are you deciding yourself it cannot be included or is that just a personal opinion that does not dictate inclusion?

How is MitD being only shown when it is summoned (not every few minutes... only as needed/wanted) any less believable then protean spending half its actions maintaining its shape? Sorry... don't mean to try and discredit protean.

The guide at the top of the page suggests certain criteria be met, which Turaglas seems to meet.