The Death of Belkar

[WalterTheMighty]

I had a thought recently -

The way things are being set up, the only way the Order is going to get Reddy to listen is if they beat down the bony piece of crap first, right? But... what if we're wrong? What if they can't get him to listen? And even if they do manage to get him on board, how can we be sure the Dark One will be okay with it?

Here's my thought: The Dark One tapped into a new color of quiddity post mortem, so what if that happens to Belkar? It'd thematically work with what his arc has been thus far, and becoming a sexy shoeless god of war would probably be a better ending for him than, say, an actual death. If the Giant has confirmed nothing like this will happen, then that's that, but it seems like a logical and fitting end for the Belkster to me

EDIT: The only hole in this I can think of is that Belkar doesn't necessarily have a large following the way the Dark One did.

[Ruck]

EDIT: The only hole in this I can think of is that Belkar doesn't necessarily have a large following the way the Dark One did.

That's a hole big enough to drive the Dark One's army through.

I also, from a thematic perspective, don't think the ending will undercut the fact that the goblins have faced injustice and deserve some kind of resolution / restitution.

[WalterTheMighty]

That's a hole big enough to drive the Dark One's army through.

I also, from a thematic perspective, don't think the ending will undercut the fact that the goblins have faced injustice and deserve some kind of resolution / restitution.

Agreed. Even if it didn't have a ton of buildup, the obvious allegorical construct pertains to a matter that's become super relevant these past couple of years. I kinda doubt Rich is gonna throw it out now of all times

[Ruck]

Agreed. Even if it didn't have a ton of buildup, the obvious allegorical construct pertains to a matter that's become super relevant these past couple of years. I kinda doubt Rich is gonna throw it out now of all times

I concur. Beyond how it would cheapen the stakes of the story as it's been laid out to pivot away from the goblins at the last minute, I also agree that the topic is important to Rich, based on posts he's made on the forums about fantasy racism.

Well, good talk!

[brian 333]

I had a thought recently -

The way things are being set up, the only way the Order is going to get Reddy to listen is if they beat down the bony piece of crap first, right? But... what if we're wrong? What if they can't get him to listen? And even if they do manage to get him on board, how can we be sure the Dark One will be okay with it?

Here's my thought: The Dark One tapped into a new color of quiddity post mortem, so what if that happens to Belkar? It'd thematically work with what his arc has been thus far, and becoming a sexy shoeless god of war would probably be a better ending for him than, say, an actual death. If the Giant has confirmed nothing like this will happen, then that's that, but it seems like a logical and fitting end for the Belkster to me

EDIT: The only hole in this I can think of is that Belkar doesn't necessarily have a large following the way the Dark One did.

This topic has been walked around the park and has even spent a few weekends at Bernie's, but it always concludes with your final paragraph.

No worshippers, no ascension.

[Provengreil]

My bet on his demise is at the hands of the MitD. Not exactly intentionally though: My prediction is that

Spoiler

Show

Xykon's old charm on the monster gets sprung in the final confrontation. Belkar, between his recent character development and a bit of possible foreshadowing in panel 6, moves to save RC to keep the spell donation possible. He tries and fails to break through the charm while he's alive, but his death catalyzes MitD to be able to break through it anyway.

Much like when the messenger's death in the Battle for Azure City shocked Redcloak into a realization before, a similar event will play out and the spell gets donated because of this.

Belkar stays dead, not because he can't be raised, but either the tomb collapses and they can't get his remains to reanimate or because he edged into CN afterlife with his last act, and refuses to be raised and risk a change of station.

[Ruck]

My bet on his demise is at the hands of the MitD. Not exactly intentionally though: My prediction is that

Spoiler

Show

Xykon's old charm on the monster gets sprung in the final confrontation. Belkar, between his recent character development and a bit of possible foreshadowing in panel 6, moves to save RC to keep the spell donation possible. He tries and fails to break through the charm while he's alive, but his death catalyzes MitD to be able to break through it anyway.

Much like when the messenger's death in the Battle for Azure City shocked Redcloak into a realization before, a similar event will play out and the spell gets donated because of this.

Belkar stays dead, not because he can't be raised, but either the tomb collapses and they can't get his remains to reanimate or because he edged into CN afterlife with his last act, and refuses to be raised and risk a change of station.

Huh. I'd never considered that angle but it's really interesting, and even ties in a hanging piece of foreshadowing I hadn't figured out a way to fit into the endgame. I'm not fully sold yet, but at first glance I like it well enough and could see it working in the story:

Spoiler

Show

We've seen the progression of Belkar's empathy, from Mr. Scruffy, to Enor and Gannji, to Durkon sacrificing himself to save Belkar even though they don't particularly like each other, because they're teammates and Belkar doesn't deserve his fate at Malack's hands. It would be the ultimate step in Belkar's character journey to sacrifice himself to save an enemy for the greater good.

[brian 333]

Posted in wrong thread somehow.

[Precure]

I don't think they need any reason to not resurrect him.

[KorvinStarmast]

Huh. I'd never considered that angle but it's really interesting, and even ties in a hanging piece of foreshadowing I hadn't figured out a way to fit into the endgame. I'm not fully sold yet, but at first glance I like it well enough and could see it working in the story:

Spoiler

Show

We've seen the progression of Belkar's empathy, from Mr. Scruffy, to Enor and Gannji, to Durkon sacrificing himself to save Belkar even though they don't particularly like each other, because they're teammates and Belkar doesn't deserve his fate at Malack's hands. It would be the ultimate step in Belkar's character journey to sacrifice himself to save an enemy for the greater good.

Nice take on that idea.

For Precure: Durkon can cast raise dead. Belkar and Durkon have a connection, so there's no way Durkon would not try. But as noted above, Belkar may choose not to return, just as Shojo chose not to return when the attempt to raise him came up.

[Synesthesy]

First, I can see no reason why Durkon wouldn't try everything he can to resurrect the only one who understood the vampire wasn't him. Durkon is that kind of guy. He would unlock true resurrection or even miracle if needed. So we'll need a very very good reason for Belkar not to come back.

Second, Belkar won't die at all as the oracle was wrong; PLEASE DO NOT DERAIL THE THREAD :)

[Tubercular Ox]

So we'll need a very very good reason for Belkar not to come back.

I agree with Provengreil:

Belkar stays dead ... or because he edged into CN afterlife with his last act, and refuses to be raised and risk a change of station.

[Synesthesy]

I agree with Provengreil:

I don't like this because I'm not sure Belkar would prefer the CN afterlife to coming back to life... If it was the CG afterlife, yeah, the eternity with Mr. Scruffy and Shojo is ok, it would be like his illusion dream.

[Tubercular Ox]

If it was the CG afterlife, yeah, the eternity with Mr. Scruffy and Shojo is ok, it would be like his illusion dream.

This is actually the afterlife I'm familiar with from other stories, where you can get an A for effort and then put on probation for a silly amount of time, but it's hard to say D&D should work that way when D&D has its own way of doing things.

[Metastachydium]

Nice take on that idea.

For Precure: Durkon can cast raise dead. Belkar and Durkon have a connection, so there's no way Durkon would not try. But as noted above, Belkar may choose not to return, just as Shojo chose not to return when the attempt to raise him came up.

I agree with Provengreil:

Seeing how Belkar was the one who explained how that works earlier, that would be surprisingly beat and tidy indeed.

[Tubercular Ox]

Seeing how Belkar was the one who explained how that works earlier, that would be surprisingly beat and tidy indeed.

Well, okay. I suppose I should practice being upbeat about this: Look what I can do with just an air freshener.

[gbaji]

It's a decent theory. I will observe, however, that there is a noticable lack of any statements from the Oracle (official or not), refering to Belkar ever actually being in any afterlife at all. Also no mention of an actual death, his body pushing up daisies, etc.

My money is still on some form of "eaten by the snarl"/"sucked into the planet in the rft and never returns".

[Anymage]

One fly in the "Belkar would prefer to stay dead" ointment is that someone willing to die for the sake of a greater plan is also most likely going to be inclined to come back so that they could keep supporting the greater plan. The only way I could see settling down for his eternal rest is if the threat is neatly wrapped up shortly after, and narratively it'd feel awfully rushed if Belkar's death happened so close to the whole comic coming to an end.

[Provengreil]

First, I can see no reason why Durkon wouldn't try everything he can to resurrect the only one who understood the vampire wasn't him. Durkon is that kind of guy. He would unlock true resurrection or even miracle if needed. So we'll need a very very good reason for Belkar not to come back.

IMO pretty much everyone in the party would have him back, were it possible.

Durkon you covered.
Roy: He's fully embraced his role as team leader AND as Lawful Good. If you have a dead teammate, you make a good faith effort to revive him, period. Also, I expect Roy has sensed Belkar's changed.
Elan: While he's grown, he'd still prefer everyone lives to get their own happy endings.
Vaarsuvious: Has a genuine appreciation for the opportunity to get back up and try to be a better person.
Haley: Saved her in Greysky City, AFTER she turned down a cure for his mark, which there's no way she's forgotten. This one's a bit weaker admittedly, but it appeals to rogues.

All of them would still probably turn him over to Hinjo and the paladins, but O'chul and Lien already discussed how he'd get to enjoy using his nonviolent skill to help out while serving his term.

It's a decent theory. I will observe, however, that there is a noticable lack of any statements from the Oracle (official or not), refering to Belkar ever actually being in any afterlife at all. Also no mention of an actual death, his body pushing up daisies, etc.

My money is still on some form of "eaten by the snarl"/"sucked into the planet in the rft and never returns".

I didn't intentionally preclude that, I just chose not to get too wordy. If the MitD knocks him into a rift it'd count for those purposes, much like the lair collapsing. It's the same overall concept.

[Tubercular Ox]

One fly in the "Belkar would prefer to stay dead" ointment is that someone willing to die for the sake of a greater plan is also most likely going to be inclined to come back so that they could keep supporting the greater plan. The only way I could see settling down for his eternal rest is if the threat is neatly wrapped up shortly after, and narratively it'd feel awfully rushed if Belkar's death happened so close to the whole comic coming to an end.

Redcloak and the purple quiddity, whatever the IFCC is doing, the planet in the rift, the MitD, and that's just the top contenders.

A big dose of "neat and tidy" is going to be necessary to fit all of those into the same box. In fact, it would probably be fruitful to start thinking about ways these things can be neater and tidier and treating them as serious proposals just because they're neat and tidy.

[gbaji]

I didn't intentionally preclude that, I just chose not to get too wordy. If the MitD knocks him into a rift it'd count for those purposes, much like the lair collapsing. It's the same overall concept.

Oh. I was talking specifically about actually dying and going to an afterlife, and whether/why he'd choose to be resurrected. I think it's not going to be a choice because his soul wont be in any afterlife where he could be resurrected.

I'm also not really sure about the MitD being directly involved. First off, MitD doesn't have any specific or strong connection to Belkar, such that his death would allow him to break the charm. I'd put that role on O'Chul instead. That relationship will have a payoff, and that's the most likely way it will pay off. Whether that involves O'Chul dying or not is up in the air. Secondly, I don't think Belkar's death/loss/whatever will be the result of a side effect of someone else's story arc. It'll be a choice he makes. Dying to MitD just doesn't resonate to me at all. What is Belkar dying for? To save Redcloak from one round of attacks from MitD? With no knowledge at the time that this will have any effect on anything? And... if we are assuming that MitD does break the charm, and the good guys win here, Redcloak can always be raised anyway. So Belkar stepping in the way and dying or not doesn't actually affect the outcome at all.

Dunno. Just seems like a really thin set of circumstances to make this work, when there are other/better plot elements already in place that would fill the same roles better from a story point of view.

[Precure]

We already seen in the perfect ending illusion back at the pyramid that Roy and Haley don't care about Belkar's death; Elan was the only one actually sad about it and even he didn't try to bring him back. So, that only leaves Durkon: Would he resurrect him? He saved him from being a vampire, a fate arguably "worser than death" but that doesn't mean he would bring back someone with that criminal score, as it would make Durkon responsible for any evil deeds Belkar might commit later.

[brian 333]

I feel that Belkar being alive in the Riftworld violates the prophecy, unless he can never again breathe or have a birthday.

And yes, the Oracle can see into the Riftworld because he can read the future editions of the comic which would presumably show us the halfling avoiding his prophecy.

[Kish]

We already seen in the perfect ending illusion back at the pyramid that Roy and Haley don't care about Belkar's death; Elan was the only one actually sad about it and even he didn't try to bring him back. So, that only leaves Durkon:

Indeed. Just as Belkar can never change, no one's expressed attitude toward him can change. And people's attitudes toward him changing as a result of him changing would be doubly impossible.

[Precure]

Indeed. Just as Belkar can never change, no one's expressed attitude toward him can change. And people's attitudes toward him changing as a result of him changing would be doubly impossible.

People can change, just not within few days.

[Tubercular Ox]

And yes, the Oracle can see into the Riftworld because he can read the future editions of the comic which would presumably show us the halfling avoiding his prophecy.

The Oracle can decide to deliver a cooked prophecy for his own reasons. As long as they're literally true he retains his reputation.

[Peelee]

The Oracle can decide to deliver a cooked prophecy for his own reasons. As long as they're literally true he retains his reputation.

Sure, but nobody who has ever espoused this possibility (or the possibilities of the Oracle simply lying) has ever been able to give a convincing reason why the Oracle would gloat about Belkar's fate if it's not death.

[Provengreil]

People can change, just not within few days.

Belkar started changing well before that illusion, Roy just wasn't listening. Much the same as how Team Evil is still oblivious to MitD's development because they've written him off as a lunk. The entire subplot of the Durkula arc was a commentary on the subtlety of character development, and Belkar spotted the fake part because he himself had been actively changing and could tell. Both Roy and Durkon openly discussed it with him several times.

[Jay R]

The only way I could see settling down for his eternal rest is if the threat is neatly wrapped up shortly after, and narratively it'd feel awfully rushed if Belkar's death happened so close to the whole comic coming to an end.

By contrast, I think that narratively, it would be perfect if Belkar's death were a climactic moment crucial to the story's successful end -- just like Tony Stark's, or Gollum's, or Don Diego's in The Mask of Zorro.

[Tubercular Ox]

Sure, but nobody who has ever espoused this possibility (or the possibilities of the Oracle simply lying) has ever been able to give a convincing reason why the Oracle would gloat about Belkar's fate if it's not death.

Obviously, if this is going to happen at all, it's going to be because the Oracle has foreseen that Belkar will not do what is necessary unless the Oracle first does what is necessary.